FAQ follow-up questions on Warships escorting Transports

Maybe

So, if a transport moves to a SZ and joins a warship there and then both move to a SZ containing an enemy sub the sub will not fire?

@Hobbes:

So, if a transport moves to a SZ and joins a warship there and then both move to a SZ containing an enemy sub the sub will not fire?

Though that specifically wasn’t covered, that I saw. My bet is the transports are protected in that situation as well.

Another situation:

The warship and transports start at a naval base, move into a SZ containing a sub, move together out of the SZ, then split up for their third move. Obviously, the transports should still be protected, even though they weren’t accompanied for their entire move.

@moompix:

@Hobbes:

So, if a transport moves to a SZ and joins a warship there and then both move to a SZ containing an enemy sub the sub will not fire?

Though that specifically wasn’t covered, that I saw. My bet is the transports are protected in that situation as well.

Another situation:

The warship and transports start at a naval base, move into a SZ containing a sub, move together out of the SZ, then split up for their third move. Obviously, the transports should still be protected, even though they weren’t accompanied for their entire move.

Regarding hobbes’ question I could see it covered either way:  NO, because all moves occur simultaneously, in which case you can never move to meet something, as that unit started moving at the same time, thus, unless you start together, you don’t move together.  This seems to me to be the correct strict interpretation of movement rules.  EDIT:  I believe this is further implied in the rules of AA50 Mechanical infantry and Paratrooper tech where infantry need to be in that same starting place to be picked up; not along the way.

HOWEVER, it could also be flimsily justified that moves aren’t QUITE simultaneous, you can play catchup, and fleets are considered in convoy (and transports protected) if a group of ships the cross the same boundary together.  Thus, you move a BB to meet a transport, then move the two together into a seazone.  If this is the case, then I think the transport should be REQUIRED to burn it’s first move space as it was waiting (which isn’t a rule anywhere but would make sense).  Otherwise you could abuse this protection by moving the BB to the transports spot, move both one space (under convoy cover), and then move the transport one space further.  And that’s bogus because that’s completely counter to how carrier/plane movements work (completely independent and occuring at the same time, thus planes don’t get carrier movement plus air movement).

So, I’m going to guess that you simultaneously start all movement regardless of how far a unit will travel and that means if you don’t both start in the same seazone you can’t get transport cover.

EDIT:  That said, maybe it would be possible to have both start in different spots, move to a single seazone, move together across the same seazone boundary to an enemy sub location, and then (possibly if starting at naval bases) move their final 3rd space.  I could maybe see that as a legal move, as they both started at the same time and moved across the Sub’s seazone boundary at the same time (on the same move: space 2).  But it seems simpler as a rule to say that if they don’t start as a convoy, they aren’t a convoy (seazones are really big, it takes a while to get to the same spot), and only “join” at the end of the turn, and that whatever warship is escorting the transport is required to stay with the transport that entire move and cross all the same seazone boundaries together.

It doesn’t seem as though you could escort a transport through a zone, and let it go IN THAT zone to go on to another one alone while your destroyer does a hard to port and goes somewhere else.  Seazones are big, and the most efficient route is actually breaking up the convoy halfway through the enemy subs seazone to steam 90 degrees to a different one. I think you’d need to enter and leave with that transport through the entirety of that seazone that the sub is in.

We’re still not really happy with the way this is worded.  We’re working on it now.  Stay tuned…

On a related note, the answer is probably no but here goes. If 2 warships (say a Destroyer and a Battleship) escort a Transport, can the Battleship and the Transport continue through the SZ with the Sub, then the Destroyer stay and conduct sea combat with the sub? Or since they started together would they have to fight together much like an amphibious assault?

How about this Krieg:

If a Transport or Transports moves into or through a Sea Zone containing an Enemy Submarine or Submarines, and at no point during the Combat Move phase does a Friendly Surface Warship begin in, move into, or move through that same Sea Zone, THEN during the combat phase each Enemy Submarine in Those Sea Zones will get to roll a single die once, striking on a 2 or less. 
If there is a hit, then the power that moved Transports through That Sea Zone must take one of those Transports as a casualty for each hit.  This is done before all other combat, if those Transports contain cargo, including troops being used in an amphibious assault, that cargo is destroyed immediately.

@Mino1124:

If 2 warships (say a Destroyer and a Battleship) escort a Transport, can the Battleship and the Transport continue through the SZ with the Sub, then the Destroyer stay and conduct sea combat with the sub?

Yes.  In this case, the battleship would be escorting the transport.  The destroyer would simply be attacking the sub.

How about:

A transport is considered accompanied (hereafter escorted) if either:

1. a surface warship began the movement phase in the contested seazone and will remain there until the next phase.  If it provided escort during a combat move, it may move during non combat, provided no combat occured in that seazone.  If it provided escort during a noncombat move it must remain in the seazone.
2. a surface warship with the same number of move spaces remaining as the transport then moves into the seazone across the same seazone boundary as the transport and will remain with the transport in that seazone or leave with the transport across the same seazone boundary.

This would reinforce that all movement is done simultaneously.  A warship or transport cannot wait for their respective partner to show up, with the exception of a naval base bonus allowing them to quickly move to position, which seems to me to be part of the point of naval bases.  Further, it maintains that the convoy needs to remain together at every step through the submarine’s seazone, beginning to end.

OK, here is the final entry:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions may moving transports be attacked?
A.  If at any time during a transport’s movement it finds itself in a sea zone with a submarine belonging to a power with which it is at war and there is no friendly surface warship in the sea zone belonging to a power that is at war with the enemy power, it may be fired upon.

@Krieghund:

OK, here is the final entry:

Q.  Submarines can attack transports that move through their sea zone “unaccompanied by surface warships”.  Under exactly what conditions may moving transports be attacked?
A.  If at any time during a transport’s movement it finds itself in a sea zone with a submarine belonging to a power with which it is at war and there is no friendly surface warship in the sea zone belonging to a power that is at war with the enemy power, it may be fired upon.

Well, that’s vastly simpler.  No longer do they need to start in the same seazone and allied warships protect you as well.  It also means that a single warship can engage in combat with the sub and the transport can move through safely, right?

But does that mean you can move a BB from two spaces away to that seazone and it will provide cover for a transport moving through the seazone to a seazone beyond?  Do units move one space at a time and you have to resolve any issues with each move (in which case the BB has yet to arrive in the transports’/subs’ seazone) or can you leapfrog (moving the bb ahead and shuttling the transport through)?  I guess it’s fine if that’s the case, but as carriers don’t carry planes (which I interpret as the “everything starts moving at the same time” rule basis), I’d have though that you resolve this with each move space, preventing a leapfrog?  This may already be specified in the rules, although until this point I can’t think of an instance where movement priority actually affects gameplay (besides airplanes not benefitting from carrier moves).

This seems to be contrary to the idea of simultaneous movement.

A Battleship can use all of its movement to move two spaces to get to the sub’s sea zone, then a transport can start its movement and move through the sub’s sea zone?

Or a surface warship can start in the sea zone with the sub, a transport can use its movement to move through the sea zone, then the surface warship can start its movement and go a totally different direction?

but planes can’t wait until after their carrier has finished moving before starting their move.

@moompix:

This seems to be contrary to the idea of simultaneous movement.

A Battleship can use all of it’s movement to move two spaces to get to the sub’s sea zone, then the transport can start its move and move into the subs sea zone?

but planes can’t wait until after their carrier has finished moving before starting their move.

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.  The carrier rule is specifically addressed.  However, this is the first instance in these games where it very much matters whether you consider movement in a space by space basis.  I’m going to assume that you cannot leapfrog a unit because it just seems counter to the rules of movement, as we’ve both said.

But can you wait for a unit?  If you plan on stopping in the seazone and the transport is a space away, a BB is two spaces away, does the transport wait, or does it move immediately, a space ahead of the BB and therefore unaccompanied.

If units all move at the same time, can you leapfrog and can you stall (wait for an escort to catch up one space, then move with the transport).  I don’t find either of those acceptable, but I’m not certain that this has been ruled on.

I’d prefer a convoy needing a ship in the same starting position as the transport and either moving with it the entire way or staying to engage the sub or already being in that subs seazone and remaining there.  no moving from a different seazone to meet the transport.  It’s simpler that way to me.  You start in a convoy or you’re not in a convoy and nothing can “wait” to form a convoy.

Krieghund, perhaps I’m not clear on movement phases for different units.  I assumed that units always began moving at the same time whether moving one space, two, four, etc.  So nothing can “wait” for another unit to catch up and every piece moves individually.  Prior to the escort rules nothing potentially affected gameplay in the middle of a move.

If this is the case, transports 1 or 2 spaces ahead of warships moving to a enemy subs’ seazone will be fired on as the warships haven’t arrived yet.

However, I guess another way I could imagine it is that “faster” units (those moving a greater distance) move first.  For example, a fighter, a destroyer and a transport are all moving to this seazone.  The fighter is moving 3 spaces, the destroyer 2 spaces, and the transport 1 space.  Does the fighter make its first move, the detroyer and fighter then move together, arriving at the transport’s seazone where all three move together to the final seazone, where the lurking sub is?

But you cannot leapfrog, correct (see previous post)?

Ok
US turn 2
Japan isn’t at war with anyone, except China.
Japan has a transport in SZ 6, with no warships
The US moves their sub into this sea zone

Japan turn 3, they declare war
Does the US sub get to shoot immediately?
Does it get to shoot, if Japan attempts to move the transport?
Can Japan move a surface warship into the sea zone, stop the attack, then load and move the transport?