Having problems playing Allies

[gnasape]

jbriggs,

What does Russia do in R1 for your games?  That would determine why your move works, if Russia holes up buys nothing but inf and tries to do it’s 3 attacks, Norway, Belo, Ukr, even I would do that except minus the IC, as it is the normal response to that particular R1 opening.  As for 8 arms being available for Ukr counter, whatever you build in Germany can hit Ukr.

Even against a conservative R1 opening, it works if Allies commits to a KJF.  Everything depends…

But against a KGF strategy it might come down to dice rolls.

Against a R1 opening of 3 inf, 3 arm and only attack W. Rus heavy, all the forces around W Rus would be deazoned and I’m not a fan of leaving arms exposed around W. Rus to bait Russia into attacking back, also a smart Russian player would hold position and maintain the deazones (not sure for how long with arms rushing down Moscow but that’s where UK comes and in strategically picks off Europe.

It could work but I still need to see it play out.

This is something that can only be settled by playing it out.  If you are interested, I have a good friend that is looking to play PBF, his screenname is crispyhaole, send him a challenge.

[gnasape]

Spartan,

Keep us posted if/when the PBF get’s setup.  But if you are looking for a game, my friend, crispyhaole is available.  I move to slow for his taste and for most people’s pace.

[gnasape]

+1 karma to jbriggs!

I know it’s hard to be the lone person so I applaud you.

[jbriggs]

No, I’m having problems with getting it set up on my computer.  If someone can give me a link so I can get right to it, that would be great, and I would love to go head to head with alot of you.  Right now though I am on my grandparents computer and they have alot of crap set up to prevent me from downloading alot of things.  Sucks to be me……

I play with Russia aggressively when I play with them, so when I play against them I try to hit them harder.  Now with that said When I play with Russia my first two objectives is Norway with 2 fighters and 3 inf from Karelia.  Sometimes I win, Sometimes I withdraw.  But if I withdraw I keep my fighters and land in Karelia and bring my infantry from archangel in for support.  This leaves Norway weakened for an assault from britian on GB1.  If I take Norway, it usually draws Germany into taking it back on G1, thus pulling some units from attacking Karelia, or Western Europe.  Then GB attacks Norway on their turn anyway.  People say attacking Norway isn’t a good idea, and statistically it isn’t.  But what it does is it diverts units from the russian front for at least a few rounds.  Germany has to stop the allies from controlling Norway.  I will commit all my tanks, artillary, and infantry from Russia and attack w. Russia.  Then build up in caucasas on my troop deployment stage.  I usually purchased only artillary for the first few rounds with Russia.  This will usually draw Germany into attacking my tanks, and sets russia up for a strong counterattack with the artillary.  Its always worked out good for me.  It also allows Russia to stay in the positive IPCs and forces Germany to attack just to stay at their 40.

Yes, Ukrain is in reach from germany with tanks in one turn, but it takes two turns to reach caucasas.  Building an IC in Eastern Europe allows you to reach Norway, archangel, west Russia, caucasas in one round.  What this allows the German Armor to do is extend the front line and forces Russia to spread its units out a little.  It extends your reach and gives you more options later in the game.  Use this for example,  If you build your armor from Germany to Ukraine it will give Russia 1 round to reinforce caucasas. and if you attacked it you will be at least 2 rounds for reinforcing and forces your offensive to stall.  But say you have those tanks and move them into ukraine you’ll have extra firepower to bring into the fight the next round and you can put direct pressure on Moscow.  Russia has to respect that and has to divert units to protect the northern borders as well.  Thus weakening the Russian front.  Sometimes I will attack caucasas my first round and use my battleship and troopship to bring more units into the fight.  If done right caucasas will fall and The Russian back will be broken.  But it is a gamble and if you lose the fight, the allies get an imediate advantage.  So failure isn’t an option.  But either way, try An IC in Eastern Europe in round one, just once and you’ll see that you’ll have alot more options to play with.  Especially if Russia gets the lend lease rule… You need to have something there to prevent them to getting allied units to help.  Again, think long term objectives and you will see why it is important.

[jbriggs]

Something that I have noticed about this forum is that alot of people focus on KGF or KJF.  The way I play is why not kill both at the same time.  It is possible to do this, but it requires alot of communication with your allies.  Think about this, a coordinated plan with great britian and US can allow you to weaken Japan by round 3, and prevents Japan to focus on the asian mainland wich hurts Russia and limits them from putting pressure solely on Germany.  But Britian and the other allies can take territory away from Germany as well, and you can limit Germany drastically by turn 3 as well, preventing them from putting pressure on Russia.  It is possible and if your good enough to see the whole board at once, you’ll see that the game can be completely won in 10 rounds or less.  Just a thought……

[gnasape]

This is for AA Battlemap:

http://www.axisandallies.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=67

For big pieces for Revised

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11223.0

How to use the dice,

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=6682.0

Jbriggs,

Good point but unless your games end in 2-3 turns, that’s a lot of wasted resources.

Please see DM’s article about German Lurch

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14466.0

What you are suggesting is a German Lurch without fodder.  It can work if the dice go your way but really really bad.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m seen it work but only because US went KJF and it was building up to an arms race with Japan and US but not US wasn’t able to break through.

Some things to point out.

If I was Germany and saw two juicy Russian ftrs in Kar, it’s dead…

Your buys with Russia “I usually purchase only artillary for the first few rounds with Russia.”  Why?  For 1 IPC more, you get an arm with more bang and mobility, what about fodder.  That’s why your tank rush works, Russia is too thin and too weak.

As for attacking Cauc, what about Egy?  What about Africa?

From what you say, it doesn’t look like you pay with a bid?

[gnasape]

Umm, unless you are playing a different game than I am, the allies have resources but not enough resources to keep both Germany and Japan in check.  Maybe I missed the boat when they handed out brains but with Germany going crazy in Africa and UK reduced to high 10’s and low 20’s for a while, and UK is not inclined to build IC’s for Japan…

US splitting buys for Europe/Pacific would work in your situation as German is buying only arms but against a German Turtle, dropping off 1-2 units in Europe is wasting resources…

If possible can you post your FTF games, level of player(s), buys, attacks, significant battles, etc.  Trying to figure out if I’m too dumb to not see something where I can do both KGF and KJF at the same time or my revised game is defective.

FYI: I play with a bid, normally 9 bid.

@jbriggs:

Something that I have noticed about this forum is that alot of people focus on KGF or KJF.  The way I play is why not kill both at the same time.  It is possible to do this, but it requires alot of communication with your allies.  Think about this, a coordinated plan with great britian and US can allow you to weaken Japan by round 3, and prevents Japan to focus on the asian mainland wich hurts Russia and limits them from putting pressure solely on Germany.  But Britian and the other allies can take territory away from Germany as well, and you can limit Germany drastically by turn 3 as well, preventing them from putting pressure on Russia.  It is possible and if your good enough to see the whole board at once, you’ll see that the game can be completely won in 10 rounds or less.  Just a thought……

[jbriggs]

lol……

I don’t play on the computer yet.  I prefer playing in person the old fashioned way, you know the board, dice, and actually having money in hand.  The problem with computer games is everything is done and seen in terms of black and white.  programs are just that programs.  They don’t have the luck of the roll, and you don’t have the human element.  Playing in person allows you to size up your opponents in person and you have the time factor also.  I usually play in tournaments against alot of different people of all ages, but mostly adults that have been playing for along time.  I’ve seen alot of different styles of play and I’ve seen damn near every scenario.

There is a way to fight the Axis at the same time.  It just involves coordination though.  The problem is that players see the board in stages.  But you have to understand that what one side of the map does effects the other.  We’ve all been taught the rules of Cause and effect when we were young.

Think about this, use the turn cycle to your advantage.  The order of play if you will.  You know the order, russia, germany, GB, Japan, and the US.  lol.  Russia dictates the flow of the game.  If Russia starts out aggressive it puts Germany on its heals.  Germany has to respond to Russia, Britian has to respond to Germany so on and so forth.  Russia can put pressure on Germany right from the get go, but Britian and the US have to put pressure on Germany to help out.  Russia in theory forces Germany to respond to a certain way, and thus you can use britian to help them and it traps germany.  The us keeps shuttling in units for support, and reinforcement of the russian and british positions.  Take Norway for example  Russia takes Norway in turn 1, Germany counter attacks, then Britian attacks and takes Norway.  Germany has to attack Norway again if Not, Britian builds an IC on its next turn there and starts shuttling tanks into The russian lines, wich doesn’t turn out to well for Germany.  Germany has to respect the IC in Norway because It allows The allies to have access to Central Europe.  Yes Germany can control the sea zones, but Britian has a toe hold established in Europe and doesn’t have to waste transports to shuttle units into europe.  With this kind of pressure to The German North, it will set up Germany to lose its strength in Africa, because the US can land a tank, artillary, 2 infantry, and a bomber into Africa.  If germany is aggressive in Africa, its rear flank will be stretched thin and allow the US to kick Germany out of Africa.  If Germany lands forces in Africa it takes some of its strength from The Russian British front and gives them a bigger strength advantage.  Think about this, If done right and consistantly, you can attack The german lines with Russian forces on Russian turn.  You will either kill or weaken the german line.  Germany goes and is to weak to attack, the british supported russian front.  They are forced to protect there gaps.  That allows Britian to attack the weakened position and win.  This sets up Russia to resupply the weakened British advance.  Basically you create a walking wall, similar to the way that the spartans faught centuries earlier.  Eventually the german lines will be to weak, and Then the US comes in and attacks or reinforces the lines.  Germany can’t win if the allies are relentless.  So my tactic of limiting the axis powers options is taking hold.  germany has 3 options in its order of play, but most of them will effect its other positions.  Let Germany focus on Africa, it frees up russia some. and 3 tanks needed to maintain the russian line is doable.  Britian may lose IPC’s in Africa, but it gains in Europe.  Britian moves before Japan, so Britian can put pressure on Japan and possibly prevent the basic japanese attack on hawaii.  A build up in india will divert japanese units from The US and they will have to respond to a british build up.  If they don’t britian can inflict some damage to the japanese economy in the first 3 rounds, thus crippling Japanese efforts against Russia, and this gives Russia more time and rescources to fight Germany.  The Us wouldn’t have to build in the pacific, but they can keep the Japanese fleet away from asia.  If Japan doesn’t respect the US fleet, they can start taking islands of opportunity and putting Japan in a weaker position.  If you play your cards right you can have Japan threatened on 3 sides.  And it prevents them from committing to a strong asian offensive.  Like I said, use the order of play as an extraplaying piece.  Limit their options and think about the whole board at once, and not by sides.  If you see the big picture, you and your allies will win.

[gnasape]

Ok?  I take it you don’t play with a bid?

[jbriggs]

No I don’t.  LOl.

Sorry.  The last AA game I played on the computer was the windows version for windows 98.  I take it the bids allow you to place a few extra pieces on the map.  Thats what it was in that game……

Forgive me though.  I am behind on the times I guess.

I don’t really play with industrial techs and I play with the normal pieces you start out with.

Good luck.  Try some things and send me a private message on how some games go for you.  I’m curious to learn some things that work or not work for you.

[Zhukov44]

@jbriggs:

ah yes…… thats what I love about this game.  When I’m Germany I’ll usually attack Russia with a huge amount of tanks.  Yes they are expensive and yes I will lose a few, but using tanks will ultimately weaken the enemy and overwhelm them.  In order for me to pull this off though I usually will need an IC closer to the front lines with Russia.

My first round purchase is usually 5 tanks and and IC to be placed in Eastern Europe.  Round 2 I purchase 8 tanks.  5 in Germany and 3 in Eastern Europe.  What this does is it gives me at least 8 tanks to hit ukraine and sweep through Russias northern territories.  I will have a few smaller units to have as fodder but my main assault force is driven by tanks.  It gives me more options in the long run and a little more mobility.  By turn 4 though I’d start getting some pressure from The allies over to the west, but With me being aggressive with my tank production to the east, I should have pushed The Russian lines back to Moscow at least and drastically cut russias options down to building infantry to defend the capital.

Your strat sounds fun, but I don’t believe it would win a majority of games online (i mean Triplea or GTO).  I think an experienced Allied opponent would beat it 90-95%+.  In my experience, buying all tanks with Germs rarely works and buying an IC G1 would work even less.  Buying all armor is only going to work if 1) you get lucky and/or if 2) the Russian player makes mistakes and leaves openings on R1 or if 3) Russian player makes risky attacks and gets diced horribly on R1.

I can see how it would work if your oppo also attacks Norway/WR as his opening.  Regardless of whether Norway falls, Russia is exposed and Germany is in a position to attack West Russia on G1, knocking out a large part of Russian gear and making an armor rush by both Axis more feasible.  If your oppo also lands figs and puts inf in Kar…then its even better…Germany can kill destroy Karelia and West Russia on G1 and an armor buy gives you the opportunity to press your advantage…

The EE IC doesn’t make any sense to me.  If I was going to consider building out there I might try Ukraine, but that also seems like inefficient spending and a potential liability.  The situation is entirely different in AA50 where Germany only starts with the 1 factory and it is common for Germany to build a 2nd IC.   But in Revised, why would I build an IC when I already have 16 capacity?  Especially if I’m buying all armor…my existing factories can already build up to 80 ipcs worth of tanks.

[Zhukov44]

@jbriggs:

Something that I have noticed about this forum is that alot of people focus on KGF or KJF.  The way I play is why not kill both at the same time.

Well, the safest way to play is to fight both and limit their incomes, ensuring an economic victory.  But I like to concentrate on weakening one or the other in order to force a decision in the game.

[gnasape]

Even for FTF you should try to play with a bid, it’s no fun kicking a downed opponent.  As my friend crispyhaole says, “do you want to play me as Axis without a bid?”  My answer is “heck no.”  I don’t like to play him with a bid!

@jbriggs:

No I don’t.  LOl.

Sorry.  The last AA game I played on the computer was the windows version for windows 98.  I take it the bids allow you to place a few extra pieces on the map.  Thats what it was in that game……

Forgive me though.  I am behind on the times I guess.

I don’t really play with industrial techs and I play with the normal pieces you start out with.

Good luck.  Try some things and send me a private message on how some games go for you.  I’m curious to learn some things that work or not work for you.

[bigchris]

@jbriggs:

My first round purchase is usually 5 tanks and and IC to be placed in Eastern Europe.  Round 2 I purchase 8 tanks.  5 in Germany and 3 in Eastern Europe.

ok, this has really been bugging me.

plan 1) you’re going to spend $15 in G1 to buy an IC in EE.  then spend $15 on G2 to build tanks there.  on G3 you can finally use them.

plan 2) spend that same $15 on G1 to buy 3 tanks and place them in germany.  spend $15 in G2 to build 3 more tanks in germany.

(2) is superior to (1) in every case. 
*in (2) you can use the G1 tanks in G2 in kar/blk/ukr, or just park in them in EE, but in (1) they aren’t even on the board yet. 
*the G1 tanks in (2) are 1 space ahead of the G2 tanks in (1)
*in (2) you have 3 more tanks on the ground compared to (1) at any point in time. 
*in (1) you have to worry about defending EE.  once UK gets transports running, he can just unload in EE and kill your 3 tanks.  so this IC is no longer an asset (and likely becomes a liability).  in (2) you do not have to worry about defending EE.

[macphearsome]

@jbriggs:

Take Norway for example  Russia takes Norway in turn 1, Germany counter attacks, then Britian attacks and takes Norway.  Germany has to attack Norway again if Not, Britian builds an IC on its next turn there and starts shuttling tanks into The russian lines, wich doesn’t turn out to well for Germany.  Germany has to respect the IC in Norway because It allows The allies to have access to Central Europe.  Yes Germany can control the sea zones, but Britian has a toe hold established in Europe and doesn’t have to waste transports to shuttle units into europe.

I have to ask about something.

Earlier it seemed that you weren’t aware that you can only build as many units on a tile as its IPC value - for example, you suggested a R1 placement of 6 artillery on Caucasus despite the 4-IPC limit.

Are you aware that Britain would be restricted to placing only 3 units a turn on Norway?  It’s not exactly the sort of thing that makes the word “shuttle” jump to my mind… more like “trickle”

[Papasmurph]

@jbriggs:

Most people I have played against, see’s russia as very weak, and they play them defensively.  I can’t play that way.  My first round purchases for Russia is 6 artillary.  This will do a few things for you……it creates options.  Doing this for your first 3 rounds along with attacking Germany every turn will make you stronger.  Buying the artillery adds an offensive option to you your stratagy.  First round combat movements should consist of attacking Norway with 2 fighters and 3 infantry from karelia.  You will limit the fighter from norway from attacking the british fleet in SZ2, and it gives you an easy 3 ipc’s.  Then attack west Russia with everything else from russia, your tank in archangel, and artillary and tank from caucas.  You should win both battles with little loss.  Your non combat phase, move 3 infantry from archangel into Karelia and land 2 fighters into karelia.  Move 2 infantry from kazakh into Caucasas.  2 infantry from yakut to Buryatia.  2 infantry from novosibursk into sinkiiang. 2 infantry from E.N.O into Novosibirsk.  Move your submarine from sea zone 4 to 2. Place your 6 artillary into caucasas.  What this does is creates a wall for germany to attack.  If Germany goes on the offensive they will be very weak for a counter attack by britian and russia.  Caucasas will have 5 infantry and 6 artillery to defend with.  Karelia will have 3 infantry and 2 fighters to defend with.  West Russia will have 3 tanks, artillery and at least 1 infantry to defend with.  If Germany attacks either one of these they will have to attack in force.  They will be hurt badly and then you’ll be able to clean up with your other units the next round.  Doing this will put you at +5 ipc’s for your next round, and will give you alot of firepower to attack Ukraine in round 2 from west russia and caucasas.

I couldn’t disagree more with this strategy for Russia.  First off, artillery are the worst piece in the whole game to buy and I will explain why in a second.  Secondly, dividing your forces is the worst possible thing to do when you are Russia.  There is a book called “the art of war” which gives a mathematical explanation for why you never divide your forces and it applies perfectly in this situation.  Basically it is being suggested that Russia spreads its units between Norway, Karelia, Caucusus, and West Russia.  This gives Germany the option to pick a battle that gives them overwhelming odds and does not put their units at risk of counterattack.  I would throw absolutely everything at Karelia, including two infantry i can transport over.  I would kill all of the Russian fighters that Russia will ever have and lose maybe two or 3 infantry.  I think the 3 “easy” IPCs make for a very big loss the next turn.
As for artillery, they are absolutely horrible.  At first glance people read artillery and they say, “Fantastic!!! They are like a tank when they are with an infantry and even if they aren’t with an infantry they attack at 2!!!”  Here is what is wrong with this analysis:  If you are attacking and you think that you are barely going to win, then you are going to eventually have fewer infantry than artillery.  This means that you have units that are slightly less expensive than tanks but significantly worse at attacking.  Once you win your close victory you have units that defend the same as infantry but cost more.  If you are going to overwhelmingly win then the concern is not so much how good they are at attacking but how good they are at defending a potential counterattack.  Here is another way to look at it.  Look ONLY at attacking.  Would you rather have 8 infantry and 8 artillery or 7 infantry and 7 tanks.  I would rather have the 7 infantry and 7 tanks every single time.  As you lose infantry artillery become worse but tanks don’t.  If you aren’t convinced then try some mock battles and see what happens.  Also consider what you are left with at the end of the battle if it is a losing battle.  Most people are convinced at this point but every now and then somebody says, “Yea I guess, but what if you make sure that you always have more infantry than artillery?  Then, like, they would be better than tanks cause they are cheaper.”  First, they would only be better at attacking, not defending, and they don’t have two moves which is not a trivial difference.  If you are attacking and winning then the new infantry will always be at least one space behind.  So then you would want to make sure that you will have as many infantry as artillery at the END of the campaign and not just after the first battle.  If you think that you are going to continue to attack and win then you probably want tanks that will actually make it to the later battles.  Units that never see a major battle aren’t very good purchases…  So replenishing infantry later on is not so practical.  Also, there is the issue of transportation.  You cannot transport an artillery with another artillery or with a tank.  This means that you may end up with transports that aren’t full because you don’t have enough infantry.  This happens almost never but it is one more disadvantage that I thought I should point out.

If anyone is interested I can also explain why subs, destroyers, battleships, and bombers should never be purchased

[77stranger77]

Don’t worry, I haven’t heard anyone else espouse that sort of Russian strategy.

I will challenge your assertion that units that don’t ever see battle should not be purchased. Why do people buy carriers for the US in the Atlantic? They are there so that Germany can’t safely attack US transports. Why do I often buy 3 inf, 3 tanks R1? I buy them so that Germany can’t stack Karelia without being decimated. A smart German player won’t stack Karelia or make any suicidal advance for that reason, those tanks probably won’t see largescale battle(until a Japanese attack on Russia) but they still served the useful purpose of containing Germany to Eastern Europe.

[Papasmurph]

@Fleetwood:

Don’t worry, I haven’t heard anyone else espouse that sort of Russian strategy.

I will challenge your assertion that units that don’t ever see battle should not be purchased. Why do people buy carriers for the US in the Atlantic? They are there so that Germany can’t safely attack US transports. Why do I often buy 3 inf, 3 tanks R1? I buy them so that Germany can’t stack Karelia without being decimated. A smart German player won’t stack Karelia or make any suicidal advance for that reason, those tanks probably won’t see largescale battle(until a Japanese attack on Russia) but they still served the useful purpose of containing Germany to Eastern Europe.

Good point.  I had in mind a group of like 8 infantry that are not near the front.  I think my assertion still stands there.

[S31JohnnyBGoode]

@gnasape:

Please take a look at the play boardgame section and find a game by DM (Darth Maximus_, JWW, KGB.  You would need to download AA battlemap, all the moves are posted, buys, comtat, non-combat.

Please forgive my ignorance, but is there a simple way to find this game other than trawling through hundreds of pages?

[theROCmonster]

You can play the game at tripplea.com, gametableonline.com, and right here at axisandallies.org.

As the allies UK is the key to the game. A poorly played UK means disaster most of the time. Russia should be easy to play once you have a couple hundred games under your belt, but UK is still difficult well into the 400 game mark. Try to pressure as much with UK as possible, but keep your fleet safe. Buying a lot of fighters early on is a sound strategy if Germany has all 6 of her fighters and bomber and decides to build more. Just keep sending units to africa. Once UK has a sufficient ammount of planes and Germany moves some of her fighters away, then move your fleet up and get 4 transports pumping 8 ground units a turn into Europe.