@Panther thank you
Allies strategy
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@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
Please explain how NOs are balanced and not majorly in favor of the Axis. I’m legitimately interested in how you came to such a conclusion.
Sure, good question.
The real issue is early game, mid game, long game and very long game.
Early game the Axis have the advantage, no question. Germany moves into Russia, probably takes Karelia on Turn 2 for a Turn then holds their Eastern Front. Japan expands quickly taking India on Turn 3. UK holds Trans-Jordon and US takes Morocco.
Most likely NO production Turns 1-4: Axis advantage = $25
• Turn 1: Germany 10, Russia 5, Japan 10, UK 5, Italy 5, USA 10 = Axis $25 vs Allies $20
• Turn 2: Germany 15, Russia 5, Japan 10, UK 5, Italy 5, USA 10 = Axis $30 vs Allies $20
• Turn 3: Germany 10, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $25 vs Allies $20
• Turn 4: Germany 10, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $25 vs Allies $20Mid game there is not a lot of movement. Germany is static but likely will lose an NO around Turn 7 to 8. Japan can take Australia however that costs so much and puts the Japanese push against Moscow so behind I would call it a wash. If Japan does go for Australia, they can remove that NO but they lose at least 1 to 2 Turns against Moscow, so I am ignoring Australia in this example. Italy can’t get any and most likely Russia will get their $10 NO for at least one Turn and we will assume France holds against UK/US pressure. Money for the Axis starts greater than dries up.
Most likely NO production Turns 4-8: Axis advantage = $5
• Turn 5: Germany 10, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $25 vs Allies $20
• Turn 6: Germany 10, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $25 vs Allies $20
• Turn 7: Germany 10, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $25 vs Allies $20
• Turn 8: Germany 5, Russia 15, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $20 vs Allies $30Long game Germany has to turtle but still is able to stop Russia from continuing to collect their NO as Russia has to turn and fight Japan. Rome, Balkans and France are in danger and France finally falls to the US via a 1-2 attack or an Axis pull out to defend Rome. Japan knocks at the doorstep of Moscow. There is a more likely chance that the Allies gain more money as Russia gets their $10 NO, or US/UK do via France and/or Balkans. This example, I think, is conservative for the Allies as they would likely earn more.
Most likely NO production Turns 9-12: Allies Advantage = $5
• Turn 5: Germany 5, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $20 vs Allies $20
• Turn 6: Germany 5, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $20 vs Allies $20
• Turn 7: Germany 5, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 10 = Axis $20 vs Allies $20
• Turn 8: Germany 5, Russia 5, Japan 15, UK 5, Italy 0, USA 15 = Axis $20 vs Allies $25End Game Germany and Rome fall and Moscow falls. It is Japan against the Western Allies. The Allies control Europe while Japan controls all of Asia and the Pacific.
Allies Advantage = $15 (PER TURN)
• Germany 0, Russia 0, Japan 15, UK 15, Italy 0, US 15 = Axis $15 vs Allies $30So, as you can see the Axis have an early advantage. This allows them to gain the initiative. However, quickly things settle down and it is even for most of the game until finally the Allies have a huge advantage.
Things to consider.
• While Germany has an advantage of $10 to Russia’s $5 since Germany is limited in production capability their additional money is not as useful as it is to Russia. Russia is buying infantry with their money. Germany is probably buying a fighter or upgrading infantry to armor.
• The real key for Germany is taking or/and holding Karelia. It is the key in Europe and due to a British fleet in the Baltic Germany can’t take and hold Karelia for long.
• For Russia that $10 NO is huge. They should get it at least once, twice is great and 3 times is WooHoo!
• Once the end game comes it is a huge advantage to the Allies having NOs.With NO vs Without NO comparison:
The reason I say it is the same balanced game either way is because with NO’s Germany collects more money however due to the value of France they have to defend France at all costs. Thus, a bunch of troops are sitting idle in France, more than the money they got in NOs. Ironically without NOs Germany is able to project more power early on against Russia because they can send more infantry towards Russia. -
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
how are you supposed to effectively trade territories with Germany to slow their advance and limit their income?
I am not going to trade territories. Most of the territories you are talking about are worth $1. Why am I going to lose a $3 infantry for a $1 territory? Also, Germany has multiple planes! At least 4 to 5. Russia has 1, if you buy one. Therefore, Germany has a huge advantage in trading territories. Why play to their strength?
In addition, there is only a 53% chance a single infantry + single fighter will take a territory defended by a single infantry. That means I am losing out on taking the territory just as much as I am taking it and it is costing me valuable infantry that defend far better than the German infantry that are attacking me. Paying $10 for something that most likely is going to lose me money doesn’t make sense.
No thanks. I am going to stack Karelia, Caucasus and Moscow and, thanks to logistics, wait till the Germans run of of steam and have to start pulling back because I outnumber them and UK/US are beating down their western door.
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Exactly as I thought before. See, I defintely see what you’re saying, it is absolutely clear that Japan starts off with a much bigger fleet then the United States but even so it’s better to build atleast something up then going in with absolutely nothing because as I’ve said before, the time will come for when you’re going to need to take down the rabid dog, and I’d personally like to do it with a little something to start with then absolutely nothing at all.
Now obviously from the beginning to mid-game, the United States won’t be in any position to take on the Japanese fleet, no questions asked. However, one thing I did discover is with the combined strength of a British task force in the Pacific, they can. This unfortunately is largely not possible due to the fact that Japan’s lightning attack on India is pretty much unstoppable. This is honestly why I much rather prefer the 42’ scenario because of the UK’s much better changes at placing a factory on India. Though without it, yes, ,you are correct. You’ll surely be outmatched by the opposing Japanese fleet without a task force.
Though with this I’m speaking from a personal experience that I’ve had playing against someone else. Yes, my American fleet was ultimately outnumbered when facing the Japanese fleet at the Philippines but with the British taskforce I mobilized made up of a couple of destroyers, 2 carriers and a battleship i was able to even those odds out, so it just all depends really, but from a technical stand point, you are correct.
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@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
how are you supposed to effectively trade territories with Germany to slow their advance and limit their income?
I am not going to trade territories. Most of the territories you are talking about are worth $1. Why am I going to lose a $3 infantry for a $1 territory? Also, Germany has multiple planes! At least 4 to 5. Russia has 1, if you buy one. Therefore, Germany has a huge advantage in trading territories. Why play to their strength?
In terms of trading territories, from a technical standpoint, yes you would be correct. Trading 1 IPC territories wouldn’t be very cost-effective whatsoever. The only time I would see trading territories with Germany as being useful per se would be if it stopped a German National Objective.
Though alluding to the idea, I think what he’s trying to say here is when it comes to trading territories, it’s less about how much money you’re obtaining from it as a result and moreover how many German units you’re destroying each turn.
Ultimately, this is just a differing of play styles. You go about the wide and cheap angle of using infantry for defense, which there’s nothing wrong with that. All the same I, and I think Dom as well are more inclined to defend key areas and consistently find places to constantly counter-attack Germany in specific areas not just to slow their advance but to really make them prioritize on mobilizing a single unit that they’re running short on, for instance, tanks. And, from what it sounds like, to me it seems like both of these strategies would work just as effectively as the other so long as the Allies are doing their thing in Norway and North Africa.
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Oh… and also just one last thing, while I was a bit reluctant to believe in the effectiveness of the infantry stacking strategy, I definitely see what you’re talking about though now after a recent playtest as Japan…
To make a long story short, I was attacking with roughly 7 infantry, 3 tanks, and 3 planes and a bomber against a stack of 12 Chinese Infantry, and well, it was an absolute formality against the Japanese. Seriously, the number of hits the Chinese were scoring against the Japanese beyond astounded me. Maybe there was a bit of luck in the dice but on the first roll, the Chinese scored 6 hits killing almost all of the Japanese infantry.
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@andrewaagamer Sorry. I asked you about NOs but we’ve actually argued back and forth about NOs in this thread before: https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/37197/putting-it-all-together-improving-allied-play/7
The tl;dr of that conversation is that NOs favor the axis but not in a game-breaking fashion. My opinion that playing without NOs is preferred has not changed since that time, but I don’t want to rehash the same multiple posts of discussion again.
Will reply to your point re: trading Russian territories separately.
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@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
how are you supposed to effectively trade territories with Germany to slow their advance and limit their income?
I am not going to trade territories. Most of the territories you are talking about are worth $1. Why am I going to lose a $3 infantry for a $1 territory?
Because you kill at least one (sometimes two or three) $3 Germany Infantry and slow the German advance, which gives you more time for US/UK to get their fleets ready. You don’t need to swap every territory, just the ones on the critical path between the main German stack and Moscow. Even one or two good trades can be enough to delay the game for the one or two turns needed for the Allies to get their act together.
Also, Germany has multiple planes! At least 4 to 5. Russia has 1, if you buy one. Therefore, Germany has a huge advantage in trading territories. Why play to their strength?
Because if Germany is using their planes to attack Soviet territories, they can’t use them to attack the UK fleet as it builds up. Almost the entire UK fleet goes down (maybe at most, you get one SZ of units that survive) on G1. You need at least 2-3 rounds of builds before UK’s fleet is ready to start landing troops in Europe. If you’re drawing the German FTRs into Russia to help their trades, they can’t destroy your budding UK fleet before it’s 100% ready.
In addition, there is only a 53% chance a single infantry + single fighter will take a territory defended by a single infantry. That means I am losing out on taking the territory just as much as I am taking it and it is costing me valuable infantry that defend far better than the German infantry that are attacking me. Paying $10 for something that most likely is going to lose me money doesn’t make sense.
That statistic lacks context. This website’s calc and TripleA gave me:
1 INF, 1 Fig Vs. 1 Inf
A Survives: 90.5% D survives: 4.5%
Attacker Results:
52.82%: 1 Inf, 1 Fig
36.69%: 1 Fig
9.49%: no unitsDefender Results:
4.48%: 1 Inf
95.52%: no unitsI assume you got the “53%” figure from the percent chance that both the INF and the FTR survive, but even if both your and your opponent’s INF die, you still slowed their advance because Germany needs to put another unit in that position. Also, this only assumes 1 FTR. If you bring 2 FTRs, the odds improve to 61% chance the INF survives, 35.44% chance of both FTRs surviving.
No thanks. I am going to stack Karelia, Caucasus and Moscow and, thanks to logistics, wait till the Germans run of of steam and have to start pulling back because I outnumber them and UK/US are beating down their western door.
1.) Stacking Karelia is impossible. You can only build 2 units/turn there. Germany will take it with their overwhelming advantage on turn 2 no matter how many INF you try stacking there.
2.) Sitting in Moscow/Caucasus (and not at least East Ukraine/Belorussia) is a recipe for disaster. If Germany gets their main stack onto East Ukraine unopposed then they can threaten both Caucasus and Moscow simultaneously. This will force USSR to abandon Caucasus for Moscow, as attempting to defend both evenly would result in Germany walking into Moscow easily. Once Germany walks into Caucasus, USSR’s economy collapses and (especially in your version of the game where NOs are turned-on) Germany’s income explodes to such a level that the Western Allies no longer have any hope of taking France.
That being said, I believe that the reason you feel obligated to sit and do nothing as USSR because you insist on playing with NOs on (which gives Germany a massive local income advantage over the Soviets and actively discourages US/UK from playing the game correctly by landing troops in Karelia/Baltic States). Thus, you feel like the only way to play the Allies is to land in France while Russia sits and waits for the Germans to (hopefully) reach a point where they can no longer send 100% of their build towards Moscow.
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Perhaps I have not been clear enough in my statements. I am not saying to buy only infantry. I am saying not to buy planes at all and to limit the amount of armor you buy to a minimum needed for counter attacking a major push by the Germans. You can’t stop the Germans from taking territory lightly but you do want to stop them from taking Karelia or Caucasus heavy and holding them.
You do not want to trade $1 territories. That is a losing battle for Russia. You do want to keep Germany from taking and holding Karelia or the Caucasus. If Russia has large stacks of infantry, with a few artillery and a few tanks, Germany does not have the ground forces to move in and hold Karelia or the Caucasus. The real danger Turns are 1-4 to 1-5. After that Russia starts pushing back and more armor purchases at that point are warranted.
I would say R1 is a 2 armor, 2 artillery and 4 infantry build to give Russia a counter attack force. After that all infantry and 1 armor a Turn until there is enough infantry on hand to start pushing back. By the beginning of R5 that would give Russia 6 armor, 4 artillery and a ton of infantry to start pushing Germany back.
- Start = 1 armor
- Turn 1 = 2 armor
- Turn 2 = 1 armor
- Turn 3 = 1 armor
- Turn 4 = 1 armor
- Therefore, Turn 5 starts with 6 armor
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@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
I am not going to trade territories. Most of the territories you are talking about are worth $1. Why am I going to lose a $3 infantry for a $1 territory?
Because you kill at least one (sometimes two or three) $3 Germany Infantry and slow the German advance, which gives you more time for US/UK to get their fleets ready. You don’t need to swap every territory, just the ones on the critical path between the main German stack and Moscow. Even one or two good trades can be enough to delay the game for the one or two turns needed for the Allies to get their act together.
At what cost? 2,3 or 4 Russian infantry? Even at 1 to 1 exchange odds that is a bad deal for the Russians as the Russian infantry defends as a 2 while the German infantry attack as a 1.
Also, Germany has multiple planes! At least 4 to 5. Russia has 1, if you buy one. Therefore, Germany has a huge advantage in trading territories. Why play to their strength?
Because if Germany is using their planes to attack Soviet territories, they can’t use them to attack the UK fleet as it builds up. Almost the entire UK fleet goes down (maybe at most, you get one SZ of units that survive) on G1. You need at least 2-3 rounds of builds before UK’s fleet is ready to start landing troops in Europe. If you’re drawing the German FTRs into Russia to help their trades, they can’t destroy your budding UK fleet before it’s 100% ready.
Looking at the board the Germans can still hit the Baltic and hit Russian land troops. That is all that matters.
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@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
In addition, there is only a 53% chance a single infantry + single fighter will take a territory defended by a single infantry. That means I am losing out on taking the territory just as much as I am taking it and it is costing me valuable infantry that defend far better than the German infantry that are attacking me. Paying $10 for something that most likely is going to lose me money doesn’t make sense.
That statistic lacks context. This website’s calc and TripleA gave me:
1 INF, 1 Fig Vs. 1 Inf
A Survives: 90.5% D survives: 4.5%
Attacker Results:
52.82%: 1 Inf, 1 Fig
36.69%: 1 Fig
9.49%: no units
Defender Results:
4.48%: 1 Inf
95.52%: no units
I assume you got the “53%” figure from the percent chance that both the INF and the FTR survive, but even if both your and your opponent’s INF die, you still slowed their advance because Germany needs to put another unit in that position. Also, this only assumes 1 FTR. If you bring 2 FTRs, the odds improve to 61% chance the INF survives, 35.44% chance of both FTRs surviving.Correct. I said a 53% to TAKE the territory. You said trade territories with Germany which implies taking the territory.
1.) Stacking Karelia is impossible. You can only build 2 units/turn there. Germany will take it with their overwhelming advantage on turn 2 no matter how many INF you try stacking there.
I disagree. Germany can take it on G2 but they cannot hold it and then Russia can move in in force on R2 making a G3 attack a questionable move. Assuming a heavy German push on G1, on average, Germany can get 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 6 armor, 4 fighters and 1 bomber against Karelia. As Russia can only get 9 infantries, 1 artillery, 1 armor and 1 AA gun Russia has to pull out. However, on G2 Germany can only move in 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 6 armor to take and try to hold it. Russia can hit that force with 12 infantries, 2 artillery and 3 armor which means Germany has to go light or be annihilated. Then Russia takes it on R3 and holds it. If Germany goes extra hard it may require British units to also help defend which removes the Russian NO but the Russians will be pushing in the south and getting their other much larger NO.
2.) Sitting in Moscow/Caucasus (and not at least East Ukraine/Belorussia) is a recipe for disaster. If Germany gets their main stack onto East Ukraine unopposed then they can threaten both Caucasus and Moscow simultaneously. This will force USSR to abandon Caucasus for Moscow, as attempting to defend both evenly would result in Germany walking into Moscow easily. Once Germany walks into Caucasus, USSR’s economy collapses and (especially in your version of the game where NOs are turned-on) Germany’s income explodes to such a level that the Western Allies no longer have any hope of taking France.
Losing the Caucasus for one Turn is not a game loser. Losing it the entire game is. Germany cannot take and hold Caucasus; they just do not have the ground troops for it. If they are going for Karelia they are not going for Caucasus and vice versa. I am okay trading, worst case, Karelia and/or Caucasus for one or two Turns, as long as the Germans cannot move in heavy and hold it.
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To me Eastern Ukraine and Belorussia feel like “No Man’s Land” if you know what I mean. Eastern Poland for Germany is often what I would consider the base of operations for the Axis since any and all units on E. Poland can reach anywhere in the Soviet Union. All the same should either the Russians or the Germans enter into Belorussia or Eastern Ukraine it will make countering that with a consolidated force from either side all too easy.
One more thing, Germany starts with 6 tanks, taking all 6 of their tanks and hauling ass for Leningrad would be a rookie mistake and would very soundly hand the win to the Soviet Union, yet all the same that’s not going to stop the Germans from going heavy on it either.
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@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
Perhaps I have not been clear enough in my statements. I am not saying to buy only infantry. I am saying not to buy planes at all and to limit the amount of armor you buy to a minimum needed for counter attacking a major push by the Germans. You can’t stop the Germans from taking territory lightly but you do want to stop them from taking Karelia or Caucasus heavy and holding them.
USSR isn’t going to stop Germany from getting Karelia “heavy” completely on their own. That’s just downright unfeasible. You need to get the US/UK fleets up before that becomes a possibility.
You do not want to trade $1 territories. That is a losing battle for Russia. You do want to keep Germany from taking and holding Karelia or the Caucasus. If Russia has large stacks of infantry, with a few artillery and a few tanks, Germany does not have the ground forces to move in and hold Karelia or the Caucasus. The real danger Turns are 1-4 to 1-5. After that Russia starts pushing back and more armor purchases at that point are warranted.
Okay, but how do you get to Karelia to hold it? It can only buy two units a turn to place there as Russia, and to get from Moscow to Karelia requires going through either Belorussia (a dreaded “$1 territory” that, according to you, should not be fought for) or Archangel. I suppose you could do the later, but if you’re willing to fight for Archangel, why not Belorussia, which directly borders Moscow and is on the German’s critical path from Berlin -> Moscow?
Also why TANKs? ART are the more economical purchase for offense because they boost the firepower of paired INF.
2 INF/2 ART = 14 IPC, 4 HP, 8 Punch (offense and defense)
compare with 3 TANK = 15 IPC, 3 HP, 9 Punch (offense and defense)I understand mixing in TANKs if you’ve hit > 35 IPC (the point you’d be able to build 5 INF/5 ART), but for the bulk of the game I don’t see your income getting that high. If USSR is consistently getting over 35 IPC then you’re “winning” (which lines up with my original post that says USSR should start adding TANKs once they’ve reached a winning position.
I would say R1 is a 2 armor, 2 artillery and 4 infantry build to give Russia a counter attack force. After that all infantry and 1 armor a Turn until there is enough infantry on hand to start pushing back. By the beginning of R5 that would give Russia 6 armor, 4 artillery and a ton of infantry to start pushing Germany back.
- Start = 1 armor
- Turn 1 = 2 armor
- Turn 2 = 1 armor
- Turn 3 = 1 armor
- Turn 4 = 1 armor
- Therefore, Turn 5 starts with 6 armor
I mean my flow isn’t completely different from yours. I just like having the air force for efficient trades.
@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
I am not going to trade territories. Most of the territories you are talking about are worth $1. Why am I going to lose a $3 infantry for a $1 territory?
Because you kill at least one (sometimes two or three) $3 Germany Infantry and slow the German advance, which gives you more time for US/UK to get their fleets ready. You don’t need to swap every territory, just the ones on the critical path between the main German stack and Moscow. Even one or two good trades can be enough to delay the game for the one or two turns needed for the Allies to get their act together.
At what cost? 2,3 or 4 Russian infantry? Even at 1 to 1 exchange odds that is a bad deal for the Russians as the Russian infantry defends as a 2 while the German infantry attack as a 1.
USSR loses 1 INF at most, since you’re bringing the FTRs with you. The idea is that you burn German INF that are close to the front so that new German INF have to spend 3-4 turns walking to the front line, while your new Russian INF spawn on the exact location they’re needed.
Also, Germany has multiple planes! At least 4 to 5. Russia has 1, if you buy one. Therefore, Germany has a huge advantage in trading territories. Why play to their strength?
Because if Germany is using their planes to attack Soviet territories, they can’t use them to attack the UK fleet as it builds up. Almost the entire UK fleet goes down (maybe at most, you get one SZ of units that survive) on G1. You need at least 2-3 rounds of builds before UK’s fleet is ready to start landing troops in Europe. If you’re drawing the German FTRs into Russia to help their trades, they can’t destroy your budding UK fleet before it’s 100% ready.
Looking at the board the Germans can still hit the Baltic and hit Russian land troops. That is all that matters.
FTRs can’t attack two spaces simultaneously. 3 FTRs Vs. a fleet compared to 4 FTRs Vs. a fleet is a pretty significant difference unless you moved out with the UK Fleet too early.
@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
In addition, there is only a 53% chance a single infantry + single fighter will take a territory defended by a single infantry. That means I am losing out on taking the territory just as much as I am taking it and it is costing me valuable infantry that defend far better than the German infantry that are attacking me. Paying $10 for something that most likely is going to lose me money doesn’t make sense.
That statistic lacks context. This website’s calc and TripleA gave me:
1 INF, 1 Fig Vs. 1 Inf
A Survives: 90.5% D survives: 4.5%
Attacker Results:
52.82%: 1 Inf, 1 Fig
36.69%: 1 Fig
9.49%: no units
Defender Results:
4.48%: 1 Inf
95.52%: no units
I assume you got the “53%” figure from the percent chance that both the INF and the FTR survive, but even if both your and your opponent’s INF die, you still slowed their advance because Germany needs to put another unit in that position. Also, this only assumes 1 FTR. If you bring 2 FTRs, the odds improve to 61% chance the INF survives, 35.44% chance of both FTRs surviving.Correct. I said a 53% to TAKE the territory. You said trade territories with Germany which implies taking the territory.
That’s fair, and I apologize for the poor wording on my part. Hopefully the bit above where I explained in slightly more detail why I favor these trades (tl;dr forcing new German INF to waste turns walking to the front) clarifies things.
1.) Stacking Karelia is impossible. You can only build 2 units/turn there. Germany will take it with their overwhelming advantage on turn 2 no matter how many INF you try stacking there.
I disagree. Germany can take it on G2 but they cannot hold it and then Russia can move in in force on R2 making a G3 attack a questionable move. Assuming a heavy German push on G1, on average, Germany can get 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 6 armor, 4 fighters and 1 bomber against Karelia.
Assuming UK sinks the Baltic Fleet G1 (meaning they can’t use it G2):
G1:
2 INF Norway -> Finland
Finland holds position (4 INF total)1 INF from NW Europe + 1 ART from Germany -> SZ5 TT -> Baltic States
4 INF/ART/2 TANK Poland -> Baltic States (total is 5 INF/2 ART/2 TANK Vs. 3 INF)2 TANK Czechoslovakia/Hungary -> East Poland
1 INF/2 TANK Bulgaria/Romania -> East Poland (total is 1 INF/4 TANK Vs. 2 INF)1 FTR Poland -> Ukraine
2 INF/1 ART Bulgaria/Romania -> Ukraine (total is 2 INF/1 ART/1 FTR Vs. 2 INF)G2 total threat on Karelia
4 FTR/1 BOMB from various
4 INF from Finland
4 INF/2 ART/2 TANK from Baltic States (assuming 1 INF was lost)4 TANK from East Poland
total is 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK/4 FTR/1 BOMB Vs. whatever Russia tried to defend with. Obviously, Germany would win that battle, and you agreed with this position.
As Russia can only get 9 infantries, 1 artillery, 1 armor and 1 AA gun Russia has to pull out. However, on G2 Germany can only move in 4 infantry, 1 artillery, 6 armor to take and try to hold it. Russia can hit that force with 12 infantries, 2 artillery and 3 armor which means Germany has to go light or be annihilated. Then Russia takes it on R3 and holds it.
As you say, rather than defending Karelia directly, USSR can stack a neighboring territory and go for a counterattack on R2 (when the German Air Force won’t be present). Let’s look into this scenario:
USSR can stack either Belorussia or Archangel to try setting up a dead-zone on Archangel. If they stack Belorussia, you can dive on their stack with extremely variable odds depending how G1 went + how USSR distributed its forces. Assuming that they either stacked Archangel or you just don’t like the odds at Belorussia, you can walk into Karelia here no problem. Using your R1 build, the biggest Russian response I was able to get was 12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. the German force of 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK. Of course, the German INF number is variable based on G1, but lets break down the calcs:
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 9 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 14% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 6 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 26% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 5 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 7 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 40% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 2 USSR Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 6 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 56% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 3 USSR Tanks survive
So, if Germany had particularly poor luck in the opening, then USSR can block an advance into Karelia on G2, but even in the scenarios where USSR wins, the odds are effectively a coin flip.
Germany can likely hold Karelia for G2 and G3, but by G4 they may need to withdraw in the face of UK’s naval buildup + how the rest of the game is going. At that point we’re way too far out to make concrete calculations.
2.) Sitting in Moscow/Caucasus (and not at least East Ukraine/Belorussia) is a recipe for disaster. If Germany gets their main stack onto East Ukraine unopposed then they can threaten both Caucasus and Moscow simultaneously. This will force USSR to abandon Caucasus for Moscow, as attempting to defend both evenly would result in Germany walking into Moscow easily. Once Germany walks into Caucasus, USSR’s economy collapses and (especially in your version of the game where NOs are turned-on) Germany’s income explodes to such a level that the Western Allies no longer have any hope of taking France.
Losing the Caucasus for one Turn is not a game loser. Losing it the entire game is. Germany cannot take and hold Caucasus; they just do not have the ground troops for it. If they are going for Karelia they are not going for Caucasus and vice versa. I am okay trading, worst case, Karelia and/or Caucasus for one or two Turns, as long as the Germans cannot move in heavy and hold it.
I think I worded things badly here. My point was more that if USSR holes up in Moscow and is reduced to trading in Caucasus for 1-2 rounds while the USSR stack in Moscow grows large enough to dislodge Germany, the Germans will get enough NO bucks (or just the regular 4 IPC from Caucasus if playing without NOs) to keep their income afloat for long enough to survive against the allies (by steadily retreating in the east and stacking Berlin in the west) until ~round 8 or 9. If Germany holds out that long, Japan can get its air stack into Europe and start defeating the Soviets, which will increase the odds that Germany is still standing by the time that Japan takes Moscow.
You know AA50’s game flow very well (as demonstrated earlier in this thread in a post I didn’t respond to). Japan is the one who ultimately takes Moscow in most games rather than Germany. The role of Germany/Italy is to make as much money as possible during the early game and then turtle until Japan wins the game. My main gripe with NOs (and your Russian strategy of not actively fighting for space on the board) is that the easy money Germany gets makes this task much too easy.
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@AndrewAAGamer One other thing I should note is that I don’t advocate swapping every single territory. Only the absolutely critical ones, namely:
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Karelia (as long as possible, to deny the German NO + use of your factory)
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Archangel (if playing with NOs, since you need it for their main bonus)
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Belorussia/East Ukraine (for as long as possible, as you don’t want a large German stack adjacent to Moscow until you absolutely can’t help it).
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Caucasus (things should never get to this point, but you never know)
The “first tier” of Russian territories (Baltic States, East Poland, Ukraine), are not good for trading until later in the game, as they’re either too close to the German production center to be worth it (Baltic States/East Poland) or too far removed from Germany’s critical path to Moscow (Ukraine).
After re-reading the thread, I think I’m in decent-enough alignment with your USSR strategy, differences in build order aside:
Phase 1 (~R1-R3): Stack Belorussia/East Ukraine (based on where Germany’s stack in heading).
Phase 2 (~R3-R5): Fall back to Moscow/Caucasus, start trading Belorussia/East Ukraine/Archangel.
Phase 3 (~R6 onward, or whenever you get big enough that Germany starts pulling back to turtle): Take and hold Belorussia/East Ukraine, generally start counterattacking towards the south (leave Karelia/Scandinavia to UK).
Phase 4 (Whenever Japan reaches Persia/Kazakh/Novosbirisk): Start turtling Moscsow and hold on for dear life. Hope that the money you gained by counterattacking Germany is enough to survive long enough for US/UK to take Berlin/Rome.
EDIT: Grammar.
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@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
Okay, but how do you get to Karelia to hold it? It can only buy two units a turn to place there as Russia, and to get from Moscow to Karelia requires going through either Belorussia (a dreaded “$1 territory” that, according to you, should not be fought for) or Archangel. I suppose you could do the later, but if you’re willing to fight for Archangel, why not Belorussia, which directly borders Moscow and is on the German’s critical path from Berlin -> Moscow?
As I mentioned you stack Archangel on R1 and buy two armor. You could buy three if you drop the two artillery down to infantry but personally I like the artillery for Caucasus for the southern defense/push.
Also why TANKs? ART are the more economical purchase for offense because they boost the firepower of paired INF.
2 INF/2 ART = 14 IPC, 4 HP, 8 Punch (offense and defense)
compare with 3 TANK = 15 IPC, 3 HP, 9 Punch (offense and defense)
I understand mixing in TANKs if you’ve hit > 35 IPC (the point you’d be able to build 5 INF/5 ART), but for the bulk of the game I don’t see your income getting that high. If USSR is consistently getting over 35 IPC then you’re “winning” (which lines up with my original post that says USSR should start adding TANKs once they’ve reached a winning position.Yes, the two INF/ART pair are a better offensive buy but the two armor is a better defensive buy AND more importantly the mobility gets the armor to Karelia on R2.
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@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
As you say, rather than defending Karelia directly, USSR can stack a neighboring territory and go for a counterattack on R2 (when the German Air Force won’t be present). Let’s look into this scenario:
USSR can stack either Belorussia or Archangel to try setting up a dead-zone on Archangel. If they stack Belorussia, you can dive on their stack with extremely variable odds depending how G1 went + how USSR distributed its forces. Assuming that they either stacked Archangel or you just don’t like the odds at Belorussia, you can walk into Karelia here no problem. Using your R1 build, the biggest Russian response I was able to get was 12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. the German force of 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK. Of course, the German INF number is variable based on G1, but lets break down the calcs:
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 9 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 14% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 6 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 26% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 5 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 7 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 40% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 2 USSR Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 6 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 56% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 3 USSR Tanks survive
So, if Germany had particularly poor luck in the opening, then USSR can block an advance into Karelia on G2, but even in the scenarios where USSR wins, the odds are effectively a coin flip.
Germany can likely hold Karelia for G2 and G3, but by G4 they may need to withdraw in the face of UK’s naval buildup + how the rest of the game is going. At that point we’re way too far out to make concrete calculations.Well that is a very interesting opening. Do you vacate Norway completely? What about the fighter that attacked the SZ2 BB? Do you leave it undefended? If you were to push that many infantry against Karelia than yes, it would take a bit for Russia to take it back. Also, your 4 armor + 1 infantry against East Poland is interesting. I guess you don’t worry about the 16% chance you lose an armor there?
Of course, if you are sending that much firepower north than as Russia I would push south to get to Bulgaria and the Russian $10 NO.
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@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
You know AA50’s game flow very well (as demonstrated earlier in this thread in a post I didn’t respond to). Japan is the one who ultimately takes Moscow in most games rather than Germany. The role of Germany/Italy is to make as much money as possible during the early game and then turtle until Japan wins the game. My main gripe with NOs (and your Russian strategy of not actively fighting for space on the board) is that the easy money Germany gets makes this task much too easy.
I think we are in agreement the Allies definitely don’t want Germany taking and holding Karelia and/or Caucasus for any length of time; that is bad news. Our styles are different. I want lots of ground troops to eventually knock them out and your style seems to push for a faster more aggressive strategy that does not have as much firepower in the long run but has more in the short run.
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@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
@AndrewAAGamer One other thing I should note is that I don’t advocate swapping every single territory. Only the absolutely critical ones, namely:
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Karelia (as long as possible, to deny the German NO + use of your factory)
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Archangel (if playing with NOs, since you need it for their main bonus)
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Belorussia/East Ukraine (for as long as possible, as you don’t want a large German stack adjacent to Moscow until you absolutely can’t help it).
-
Caucasus (things should never get to this point, but you never know)
The “first tier” of Russian territories (Baltic States, East Poland, Ukraine), are not good for trading until later in the game, as they’re either too close to the German production center to be worth it (Baltic States/East Poland) or too far removed from Germany’s critical path to Moscow (Ukraine).
After re-reading the thread, I think I’m in decent-enough alignment with your USSR strategy, differences in build order aside:
Phase 1 (~R1-R3): Stack Belorussia/East Ukraine (based on where Germany’s stack in heading).
Phase 2 (~R3-R5): Fall back to Moscow/Caucasus, start trading Belorussia/East Ukraine/Archangel.
Phase 3 (~R6 onward, or whenever you get big enough that Germany starts pulling back to turtle): Take and hold Belorussia/East Ukraine, generally start counterattacking towards the south (leave Karelia/Scandinavia to UK).
Phase 4 (Whenever Japan reaches Persia/Kazakh/Novosbirisk): Start turtling Moscsow and hold on for dear life. Hope that the money you gained by counterattacking Germany is enough to survive long enough for US/UK to take Berlin/Rome.
EDIT: Grammar.
Ahh, see we are more in sync than different!
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Even if you lose Karelia G1 by the Germans the UK landing in Norway and Finland will be inevitable so it won’t be permanent.
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@thedesertfox said in Allies strategy:
Even if you lose Karelia G1 by the Germans the UK landing in Norway and Finland will be inevitable so it won’t be permanent.
Generally, going for Karelia G1 via an all-in takes away too much from your overall gameplan (i.e. you’d need to send multiple air units that are better used taking out the British fleet + attacking Egypt).
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@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
Okay, but how do you get to Karelia to hold it? It can only buy two units a turn to place there as Russia, and to get from Moscow to Karelia requires going through either Belorussia (a dreaded “$1 territory” that, according to you, should not be fought for) or Archangel. I suppose you could do the later, but if you’re willing to fight for Archangel, why not Belorussia, which directly borders Moscow and is on the German’s critical path from Berlin -> Moscow?
As I mentioned you stack Archangel on R1 and buy two armor. You could buy three if you drop the two artillery down to infantry but personally I like the artillery for Caucasus for the southern defense/push.
Also why TANKs? ART are the more economical purchase for offense because they boost the firepower of paired INF.
2 INF/2 ART = 14 IPC, 4 HP, 8 Punch (offense and defense)
compare with 3 TANK = 15 IPC, 3 HP, 9 Punch (offense and defense)
I understand mixing in TANKs if you’ve hit > 35 IPC (the point you’d be able to build 5 INF/5 ART), but for the bulk of the game I don’t see your income getting that high. If USSR is consistently getting over 35 IPC then you’re “winning” (which lines up with my original post that says USSR should start adding TANKs once they’ve reached a winning position.Yes, the two INF/ART pair are a better offensive buy but the two armor is a better defensive buy AND more importantly the mobility gets the armor to Karelia on R2.
Going purely by the numbers, INF/ART are better than TANKs odds-wise because they have more punch and more HP for less money. However, when you start factoring in your limited deployment spots for USSR (10-12), things start getting different. At that point, since USSR can generally count on getting their 10 IPC bonus for no foreign units + hold Archangel, it might be feasible to mix in a TANK or two. To me, it’s all about whether USSR’s income is over that 35 IPC level (since at 35 IPC exactly, you can buy 5 INF/5 ART).
@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
As you say, rather than defending Karelia directly, USSR can stack a neighboring territory and go for a counterattack on R2 (when the German Air Force won’t be present). Let’s look into this scenario:
USSR can stack either Belorussia or Archangel to try setting up a dead-zone on Archangel. If they stack Belorussia, you can dive on their stack with extremely variable odds depending how G1 went + how USSR distributed its forces. Assuming that they either stacked Archangel or you just don’t like the odds at Belorussia, you can walk into Karelia here no problem. Using your R1 build, the biggest Russian response I was able to get was 12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. the German force of 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK. Of course, the German INF number is variable based on G1, but lets break down the calcs:
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 9 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 14% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 6 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 8 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 26% USSR win/1% draw/73% German win - Average result = 5 German Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 7 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 40% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 2 USSR Tanks survive
12 INF/2 ART/3 TANK Vs. 6 INF/2 ART/6 TANK - 56% USSR win/1% draw/58% German win - Average result = 3 USSR Tanks survive
So, if Germany had particularly poor luck in the opening, then USSR can block an advance into Karelia on G2, but even in the scenarios where USSR wins, the odds are effectively a coin flip.
Germany can likely hold Karelia for G2 and G3, but by G4 they may need to withdraw in the face of UK’s naval buildup + how the rest of the game is going. At that point we’re way too far out to make concrete calculations.Well that is a very interesting opening. Do you vacate Norway completely? What about the fighter that attacked the SZ2 BB? Do you leave it undefended?
Conditionally. It depends on how many INF Germany loses in the Baltic States fight in-particular. If things go absolutely sideways and they lose 2 INF then Norway needs to be 100% evacuated. I understand that this risks losing the SZ2 FTR to a British air attack but they’d need to send either 1 FTR/1 BOMB or send in a loaded transport from Canada + 1-2 FTR). If UK sends forces to Norway it (hopefully) means they’re missing out on either sinking the Baltic Fleet or are delayed a turn in sending their BOMB towards the center of the map (which is a more optimal position for it). Ideally, no INF are lost and you only need to send 1 of the 2 INF to Finland.
If you were to push that many infantry against Karelia than yes, it would take a bit for Russia to take it back. Also, your 4 armor + 1 infantry against East Poland is interesting. I guess you don’t worry about the 16% chance you lose an armor there?
Not particularly. That’s like saying don’t try for Egypt G1 because you only have a ~76% chance to actually take the territory (my math might be bad on that calc because I don’t have the setup in front of me right now), If that chance actually occurred taking/holding Karelia would probably be a bust and you’d have to shift to a different game plan.
Of course, if you are sending that much firepower north than as Russia I would push south to get to Bulgaria and the Russian $10 NO.
That possibility is part of while 4 of the TANKs go to East Poland instead of 100% all-in at Baltic States. If on R1 USSR positions its forces in either a balanced position or with a disposition towards the south, Germany is free to adjust how many troops its sending to Caucasus. Some of Italy’s started forces can also be used to plug the gap, as you don’t need to start spending 100% of their income on defending Rome/France until ~Round 3.
@andrewaagamer said in Allies strategy:
@domanmacgee said in Allies strategy:
You know AA50’s game flow very well (as demonstrated earlier in this thread in a post I didn’t respond to). Japan is the one who ultimately takes Moscow in most games rather than Germany. The role of Germany/Italy is to make as much money as possible during the early game and then turtle until Japan wins the game. My main gripe with NOs (and your Russian strategy of not actively fighting for space on the board) is that the easy money Germany gets makes this task much too easy.
I think we are in agreement the Allies definitely don’t want Germany taking and holding Karelia and/or Caucasus for any length of time; that is bad news. Our styles are different. I want lots of ground troops to eventually knock them out and your style seems to push for a faster more aggressive strategy that does not have as much firepower in the long run but has more in the short run.
Pretty much. The way I see it is that if USSR can punch Germany in the nose enough times during the opening turns, then their income will be stunted enough that UK/US have an easier time winning the war on their side of the map. Even if this causes USSR to lose enough units over time that Japan has an easier time taking Moscow, the Allies can usually still win as long as they take Berlin on or before the round that Japan takes Moscow.
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