@shadowhawk I never though about that , that is really smart. I will make sure to do that.
UK Strategy -"Middle Earth"
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Oh and I forgot to mention the survived German battleship (assuming you didnt get completely diced) will be in Sea zone 110 with the potential of a sub being left over if you took 2 subs in so sz 110 really wont work out for ya unless you wanna take a potshot with your planes going in as well which would weaken your Taranto Raid significantly to which the 3 plane scramble will potentially give the Axis the victory on that one with some leftover ships.
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@luftwaffles41 said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":
Exactly! See, part of what I was developing for a German strategy was to strike at the heart of the U.K’s economy.
So hear me out on this and tell me what you think.
First and foremost, you’d obviously be doing an Afrika Korps strategy which is sending a German navy and German units to help assist Italy down in Africa, whilst doing a successful Barbarossa attack. I actually made a thread in Europe 1940 called “Countering the Russian Fall Back Line” with a well devised plan to counter the counter attacking that the Soviet Union can do.
As for which route Germany should do, I absolutely think they should be taking the southern route since 1) more money, 2) closer proximity of industrial hubs with Stalingrad as well as Ukraine.
I’ve done counting and from the East Poland border to Moscow, it’s 4 turns, which is the exact amount of time it takes for the British to bring their destroyer and transport from the British Isles all the way to South Africa to start their triangular transport process in their Middle Earth strategy.
BUT, I have developed a way to potentially counter the Middle Earth strategy and the inevitable Minor Industrial Complex that will be placed on Iraq/Western Persia with a strategy that I like to call “Naher Osten”. This strategy is still a prototype, but the way it works is basically still the same get go, so let me fill you in on the steps.
Turn 1, Germany should build 2 transports and an Aircraft Carrier to create a fake Sealion build for the British to get all ancy that Sealion will happen, continue normal German moves that you’d do on G1, as for Southern France it’s optional to take it G1 or G2 doesn’t really matter much, but leave Yugoslavia and Greece for Italy since this strategy involves Italy to play a significant role in taking Egypt.
Turn 2, Germany should take the 2 infantry from Denmark, 1-2 infantry from Norway, the tank and artillery from Normandy down to Gibraltar and Morocco to make an official landing in Africa and control the straight of Gibraltar. Germany should next be building tanks, artillery and infantry for the inevitable attack on the Soviet Union. Now, it really doesn’t matter how you divide your infantry up as the Germans, you can either build the 3 infantry on Normandy and take the 3 infantry from Greater Southern Germany to Southern France, it doesn’t matter what you do, you just need to have 6 infantry and 3 tanks on Southern France, as well as having built either 3 more tanks on France, or 2 tanks and an artillery, etc. just buy 3 units made up of tanks and/or artillery.
Turn 3, Germany then moves their transports up to Southern France, taking 3 Infantry and 3 tanks down to Tunisia with the 3 movement they get from the newly taken Naval Base. Now, turn 3 should be the proper assorting build to send towards your Barbarossa attack consisting of aircraft, infantry, tanks, artillery, etc. BUT you must build 3 transports on Southern France by G3 for this strategy to work. So, G3 should effectively be your Barbarossa attack, this is when you can go now and go hard on the Soviet Union. I spoke earlier in a thread I made of countering the Russian Fall Back Line if it is enacted and it was a long post so I don’t wanna just say the same thing here, but the point is you can go now, this is it. or you can wait to G4, I’d go on G3 though. Now, as for your newly built 3 transports, the UK may or may not have a bomber on Malta that can reach. The Italian player should take their leftover cruiser, transport and destroyer and sub, (assuming they are all alive) to the sz 93 bordering Southern France to A) Keep the 3 German transports safe and B) Protect those ships from being destroyed by the Royal Airforce, to which being there the British will only have their bomber to take it out which isn’t very cost effective to trade a bomber for a destroyer being that the cruiser gets a guaranteed 2 shots at the bomber. So you’ll have a total of 6 transports, 3 bordering North Africa and 3 on Southern France.
Turn 4, this is where the strategy is put into play, keep in mind this is the exactly moment where the UK JUST STARTS to get their triangular transport route moving in the Indian Ocean so this couldn’t be better timing for Germany to disrupt the UK. Now, for building units you might wanna consider building a ship or 2 in the Med to help build up the German navy, as well as continually building the proper builds to help assist the invasion on Barbarossa. Now for the combat moves, Germany should take their navy, their 3 transports that will carry 3 infantry and 3 tanks, and their 3 transports on Southern France carrying 3 more infantry, and likely 1 tank and an artillery (It can be whatever you want, you just need to atleast bring 3 tanks), and bring these across the Med and land in SYRIA. The British may or may not know what’s coming, and might have aircraft there as well as some other units, which is perfectly fine, the more units there the better for you. So to recap, you’ll be taking your entire navy, 6 transports holding a total of 6 infantry, 4 tanks, and 2 artillery to Syria, and if there are any units there then you’ll get a landing shot with the battleship and cruiser.
Within the next 2-3 turns you’ll be able to march across the Middle East, taking the IPCs, the Industrial Complex, and the National Objective money from the British player, whilst Italy focuses on taking out Egypt, and while Japan works on taking out Calcutta, and with this, the British player is absolutely overwhelmed, they effectively have all 3 major Axis powers all marching for their base of operations, which the British just can’t afford to take on all 3 Axis powers, I don’t care how many units the British place in the Middle East and Africa, they just can’t industrialize fast enough to take on all 3 Axis powers. Keep in mind that after you make your landing on G4 into the Middle East, your ships should IMMEDIATLY turn back around to face the impending American navy that is coming across the water, and within a span of 3-4 turns you should have built at least 1 boat to put in the Med to help size up the American navy with your own and with the combined strength of the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine, you’ll be able to push the Americans out from their invasion of Operation Torch, therefore winning the game for yourself since the Americans HAVE to make their landing in Africa by turn 4, and if they’re pushed out then its game over, they can’t afford to make another landing because by then the Soviets will have lost the war.
I know this post was super long so I’m really sorry for making you have to read all this but I really wanted to make sure this strategy was devised and well thought out to take on the Allied powers.
Tell me what you think!
I like a med strategy. But I have two issues with the way it’s done here.
First, southern france, Yugoslavia and Greece should all be German and all taken asap. Sf and Y on turn 1 and Greece on turn 2.
Secondly, you do not need to waste time sailing fleet into the med. If you take sf turn 1 you can simply build what you need there t2. Or build what you need with a greece factory t2 to t3.
Finally, if the USA is dropping a navy at Gibraltar on g4 then what has Japan been doing? Because that seems to be a problem Japan should be taking care of.
The allies do not determine how much USA gets and where they go. The Axis should be forcing them to do so and with delayed entry into the war.
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Thats what I had in mind for the most part. The idea of this strategy was to prioritize the Americans on the Germans whilst the Japanese can then roam free in the Pacific with no American threat.
As for Southern France, I suppose it’s personal preference if you wish to bring a navy down from the Baltic Sea or build one, personally for me I’m just not a fan of building a navy from scratch since it feels that it takes too many IPCs for the Germans and all im really doing is using the moderately sized fleet to help Italy build up its own.
As for Yugoslavia, I suppose the Germans could take that, gain the extra 72+ IPCs on G2 and for the most part just build a minor IC, since that’s really the only reason I can see Germany wanting Yugoslavia is to out an IC for close proximity to the Med, but they won’t need the IPCs with access to 70 by G2 and then 50 from G3 and forward.
As to why the Germans should not take Greece, for starters its important to leave Italy with atleast some IPCs to take, as well as the idea that the Germans can’t be wasting time attacking Greece, since assuming you are going to use Bulgarian infantry to do so, it’ll take 4 turns for those forces to reach the Soviet Border and by then its too late its imperative that they attack on G3 at the latest.
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@luftwaffles41 said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":
Thats what I had in mind for the most part. The idea of this strategy was to prioritize the Americans on the Germans whilst the Japanese can then roam free in the Pacific with no American threat.
As for Southern France, I suppose it’s personal preference if you wish to bring a navy down from the Baltic Sea or build one, personally for me I’m just not a fan of building a navy from scratch since it feels that it takes too many IPCs for the Germans and all im really doing is using the moderately sized fleet to help Italy build up its own.
As for Yugoslavia, I suppose the Germans could take that, gain the extra 72+ IPCs on G2 and for the most part just build a minor IC, since that’s really the only reason I can see Germany wanting Yugoslavia is to out an IC for close proximity to the Med, but they won’t need the IPCs with access to 70 by G2 and then 50 from G3 and forward.
As to why the Germans should not take Greece, for starters its important to leave Italy with atleast some IPCs to take, as well as the idea that the Germans can’t be wasting time attacking Greece, since assuming you are going to use Bulgarian infantry to do so, it’ll take 4 turns for those forces to reach the Soviet Border and by then its too late its imperative that they attack on G3 at the latest.
The Germans aren’t wasting time attacking Greece. Greece is key to both the med and russia.
A complex in Yugoslavia is wasted in my opinion. It is too close to already existing German factories and can only put boats in the med.
A complex in Greece gives Germany boat access to the med and the Black sea. And gets german troops and protection for the Italians.
If you do this correctly, italy will get $ from Africa or swapping territories with the UK in taking the middle east. But once the uk is gone, russia has a huge problem.
I think Germany cant get caught up in Russia. You’ve decided on a Mideast strategy. So why are you leaving before the job is done?
Do what needs to be done. Take the mideast. Even if that means you get to Russia on G4.
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@luftwaffles41 you still can’t enter the med until G4. You have to own Gibraltar at the start of your turn to go through it.
Re SZ110. If you are sending all forces (1-2 Sub + BB) to 110, what are you doing about fleet in SZ111? All aircraft? Ok. But will affect luftwaffe power later.
Brits still have 1 DD. I’d attack 110, and probably lose DD because yes with CV + 2 trans i would fear SeaLion. But have 33% of living ( assuming only damaged BB remains).
Of course, could take hit on fighter to keep the blocker, and then you’re back to waiting on entering med until G4 -
My point really is that this tactic is a possibility–if the opening to Gibraltar is there, then maybe go for it, but can’t be counted on in all games.
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@surfer said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":
My point really is that this tactic is a possibility–if the opening to Gibraltar is there, then maybe go for it, but can’t be counted on in all games.
There will always be a way for Germany to get Gibralrar. You simply build a German fleet outside southern france.
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Yup, that pretty much summarizes it. frankly, I suppose I see where you come from with Greece, but being that you put a complex on Greece, the proximity at which you are to the UK may be too close, but I’m not gonna talk about worries, I understand where you’re coming from and tbh that would work out just as well as sending units down to Africa from the Baltic Sea.
The point is though that this strategy is meant to assist the Italians in Africa since even though the Italians have a much closer proximity, the UK still has a better chance of beating them back since they have the ability to do the Taranto Raid as well as attack Tobruk, and before the game even starts put an end to any African Campaign in the Med before it was even started.
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As for the blocker in 110 or 111 it really doesnt matter, if you put a blocker in my way than I’ll just go Sealion on you since I’m already set up for it. As General hand Grenade would say the point is to win the game however means possible not do your strategy at all costs.
And yeah, Surfer my apologies on the rule for controlling Gibraltar totally forgot, but you’re right this strategy can’t be accounted for in every game.
And if you were brainstorming counters against this German strategy, then they need to be generic and authentic, they need to be strategies that implement multiple steps of action that will fend of the Germans and Italians and win the game all together, my point is that stopping a strategy doesn’t come down to just ‘saying you’d put a blocker down’ since like I said, if one strategy didn’t work than I’d go with the next best thing which is Sealion. So if there were to be a counter strategy made to defeat Afrika Korps, than i feel it should be well thought out and comprised of immediate action that the UK should take to fighting the Germans back like putting a complex in Egypt or Iran, I dont know.
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@luftwaffles41 said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":
Yup, that pretty much summarizes it. frankly, I suppose I see where you come from with Greece, but being that you put a complex on Greece, the proximity at which you are to the UK may be too close, but I’m not gonna talk about worries, I understand where you’re coming from and tbh that would work out just as well as sending units down to Africa from the Baltic Sea.
The point is though that this strategy is meant to assist the Italians in Africa since even though the Italians have a much closer proximity, the UK still has a better chance of beating them back since they have the ability to do the Taranto Raid as well as attack Tobruk, and before the game even starts put an end to any African Campaign in the Med before it was even started.
As for the blocker in 110 or 111 it really doesnt matter, if you put a blocker in my way than I’ll just go Sealion on you since I’m already set up for it. As General hand Grenade would say the point is to win the game however means possible not do your strategy at all costs.
And yeah, Surfer my apologies on the rule for controlling Gibraltar totally forgot, but you’re right this strategy can’t be accounted for in every game.
And if you were brainstorming counters against this German strategy, then they need to be generic and authentic, they need to be strategies that implement multiple steps of action that will fend of the Germans and Italians and win the game all together, my point is that stopping a strategy doesn’t come down to just ‘saying you’d put a blocker down’ since like I said, if one strategy didn’t work than I’d go with the next best thing which is Sealion. So if there were to be a counter strategy made to defeat Afrika Korps, than i feel it should be well thought out and comprised of immediate action that the UK should take to fighting the Germans back like putting a complex in Egypt or Iran, I dont know.
I would be hoping for a UK complex in Egypt. Like Thanos, I would use the complex you built for me to wipe you out.
Because if I’m going with a med strategy then I’m not joking. Or turning to russia G2 or G3. I’m taking the med and any complexes you have there. Please leave the lights on and fresh towels.
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Couldn’t have said it better. It wouldn’t involve none of this “give me a half scoop” crap, when I go down to Africa, the UK player better frickin’ clench their cheeks and prepare for what’s about to hit them because I dont care if Italy does it, or Germany does it, Africa, and the Middle East are all being taken.
And I’m not screwing around with Russia either, obviously i’d still do a natural G3 Barbarossa since it’s not too early and not too late and do just as I would normally with Barbarossa, pumping out those tanks and takin’ it to the Soviets on the Eastern Front.
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It is hard to make definitive assessment of this plan with out defining which rule set is being used and bid, if any.
OOB rules without any bid, and the Axis can probably try anything and win.
So let’s say
40+ bid OOB, or BM3/4 rules.
The Brits will buy 1 ftr+6inf because of you G1 purchase. Assuming the DD dies killing the BB, and therefore G2 is clear to take Gibraltar, Russia is still defensive. The Brits should see the coming invasion, and focus on keeping s. Africa, and werstern front. Norway if possible, but more likely building up to join US on Turn 4… assuming Japan DOW by turn 3, so the US can take Gibraltar back US 3, and start invasions US4.The Brits have invested no money in middle east because the German moves, but gain from the knowledge and adapt going north. Not a guaranteed plan, but Germany would be hard pressed to fight in med+western front +russia. Losing any of these would be problematic.
Coupled with additional IPCs from bid or game rules for allies and the game is not easily won by axis.
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@squirecam Egypt is a terrible place to put an early UK factory, for exactly that reason. You put the factory in Persia, where it’s quite far from starting Axis forces, and then you only expand with a factory in Persia if the Axis are ignoring the region.
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True that, a bid would make the game substantially more challenging for the axis which is not bad
Personally I feel the A&A community doesn’t nearly recognize enough that the Axis do have the advantage in the game, so I’m all for it if need be
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@argothair said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":
@squirecam Egypt is a terrible place to put an early UK factory, for exactly that reason. You put the factory in Persia, where it’s quite far from starting Axis forces, and then you only expand with a factory in Persia if the Axis are ignoring the region.
True. But then the axis should land in Syria and head to take the factory.
Basically, if you are playing a mideast strategy, then the goal is taking it, not attacking russia on g2 or g3.
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@surfer said in UK Strategy -"Middle Earth":
It is hard to make definitive assessment of this plan with out defining which rule set is being used and bid, if any.
OOB rules without any bid, and the Axis can probably try anything and win.
So let’s say
40+ bid OOB, or BM3/4 rules.
The Brits will buy 1 ftr+6inf because of you G1 purchase. Assuming the DD dies killing the BB, and therefore G2 is clear to take Gibraltar, Russia is still defensive. The Brits should see the coming invasion, and focus on keeping s. Africa, and werstern front. Norway if possible, but more likely building up to join US on Turn 4… assuming Japan DOW by turn 3, so the US can take Gibraltar back US 3, and start invasions US4.The Brits have invested no money in middle east because the German moves, but gain from the knowledge and adapt going north. Not a guaranteed plan, but Germany would be hard pressed to fight in med+western front +russia. Losing any of these would be problematic.
Coupled with additional IPCs from bid or game rules for allies and the game is not easily won by axis.
So from your example I would consider this a failure of the Japanese player. If USA is going all out in the Atlantic then Japan needs to win the game in the pacific and needs to focus on taking the VC as soon as possible. Germany should be focused on surviving.
Also, is UK going with Taranto? Because that certainly affects things. Let’s assume a bm game so we dont have a crazy bid to discuss.
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That’s the balancing part to this strategy.
As the player in charge of Germany, it’s genuinely going to take a keen and consistent mind to balance 2 fronts in a war of attacking the Russian Bear and the Scorpions of the desert, let alone fight them both effectively.
The role that Japan plays in all this is the lead boxer in a fighting arena of other tiny insignificant fighters, Japan should be beating the living hell out of China, Anzac, UK Pacific, and even to the extent America, that is the role they play, and it doesn’t matter how long, or how hard they hit, they need to continue hitting until the game is won on the Pacific.
As for Germany, I’m not sure what you mean by ‘surviving’ because that’s not per say what the Germans will be doing objective like-wise. What Germany should be doing is Germany should be taking it to the Allied powers in Europe, now granted this sounds more obvious then the word obvious, but seriously hear me out on this. Part of what makes the German War Machine so unstoppable is it’s ability to continue to just A) Pump out units, B) Fight incredibly effectively and C) Recalibrate after a loss on any sort of front in the war. That’s why it’s called the German War “Machine” The combined strength of Germany leaves the Allies clueless how to stop them, they refer to Germany as a machine by the very means that they fight a war like a programmed machine designed to win, not just of the player’s own doing. But it’s up to the player ultimately to recognize that and utilize that concept, because Germany can fight effectively on any front they choose whether they go West, East or South.
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@squirecam Land in Syria and take Persia? Easier said than done! After a Taranto raid, Italy has only one transport remaining – if you land on turn 1, you get 2 units into Syria, which can often be immediately counter-attacked and killed from Egypt/Trans-Jordan. Even if they survive, there’s no guarantee that they’ll be able to conquer Persia.
Waiting until turn 2 to move into Syria doesn’t necessarily help – with only 10 IPCs, Italy can only build one extra transport, so now you’re landing with 4 ground units in Syria on turn 2. You can pick up the 3 infantry in Iraq on turn 3, and maybe land an infantry and a tank in Syria again on turn 3 so the tank can blitz to Persia on turn 4, which means you attack Persia on Italy’s turn 4 with 4 + 3 + 1 = 8 ground units plus maybe a couple of planes.
For its part, Britain can activate Persia on turn 1 with a loaded transport, meaning there will be 2 + 2 = 4 British units there on UK1. On UK2, Britain builds a Persian factory. On UK3, Britain builds 3 infantry in Persia, plus the 1 infantry from West India can arrive by foot. On UK4 (UK goes before Italy), you build 3 more infantry; 2 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 3 = 11 units defending Persia, not counting a couple of planes that can easily be stationed there as needed. So something like 11 inf, 2 fighters, even without any loaded transports coming up from South Africa or mech. inf. coming from East India.
Even with Italy going all-out against Syria/Iraq/Persia, and even with little/no reinforcements beyond just building the Persian factory and building infantry there, Italy is heavily outnumbered in attacking Persia. Much, much later in the game, after Italy has already taken Egypt, then the main Italian army can walk over toward Persia and cause real problems there – but that means the Persian factory has successfully produced for 7-8 turns, so it’s done its job for the Allies. The game will likely be decided elsewhere before the Italians can make to Tehran.
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Thank you! This is quite literally the exact reason why Germany should do Afrika Korps. Italy doesn’t belong in the Middle East it doesn’t help them at all to throw a way valuable resources like that. Italy has 1 priority and that’s to 1) Dominate the Med Sea and 2) Take Egypt
Alot of people don’t understand that Germany is here to do the dirty work. Let Germany take Syria and move into Iraq, Germany will be the ones fighting the British hand and hand all Italy needs to do is work on taking Cairo
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