Russian Sacrifice Strategy

[mikecool70]

I’ve been looking at the 1941 setup and have been trying to figure if the Allies could still win the game if Russia falls but the Allies take Japan.  I came up with the idea of Russia purposely sacrificing itself (temporarily) so that Japan definitely falls and is kicked out of Asia fairly quickly.

I think it should go without saying that if all three of the Allies as well as the Chinese units are focusing on Japan, then Japan can be pushed off the mainland as well as have its entire fleet destroyed.

I have not worked out all the details yet; in fact, I’m sure there are various ways it could be done, but here is one way it could be done:

Russia builds 6 tanks on R1 but then on R2 sends them all East, either through Russia or China.  Japan can put enough units on the mainland to hold off both the Russian and Chinese units but the UK will build an IC either in India or Australia (or maybe even East Indies if the Japanese fleet isn’t positioned close to it after J1) and the USA builds nothing but fleet on turn 1 (probably two carriers and a cruiser and then land all four fighters on the carriers).

With this combined pressure, Japan can’t handle all the threats and will soon be reduced to nothing but Japan and 8 IPCs.  And no, Italy can’t take Africa in this situation, because UK could also build an IC in South Africa and crank out tanks while using their air force from the UK as support.

Now, assuming that Germany built nothing but tanks on turn 1 and then nothing but bombers once they realized what was going on, I think Russia will fall on turn 4.  But by then it’s too late: Japan is kicked completely off the mainland on turn 5 and their navy completely destroyed either on turn 4 or 5 (USA and UK build more fleet and then nothing but bombers on the turn before they plan to attack the Japanese fleet).

If Germany has lost Morocco, then they are at around 65 economy (with NO’s), Italy at 9 and Japan at 8 while the USA and UK are getting well over 100 plus 4 Chinese infantry per turn.  With only 8 economy, Japan will quickly fall, adding even more income to either the UK or USA player.  Sure, Germany can build a huge navy the turn after Russia falls but the UK player can plan for this and build some naval units instead of nothing but bombers the turn that Russia does fall.

Now yes, Germany might build a ton of tanks and sweep across Asia, but the Allies can limit those tanks to one movement per turn, so it’s going to take awhile.  In fact, Russia could even vacate all of his units from Russia the turn before it falls and slowly move East with them, leaving behind one infantry each turn.  While Germany is taking out Asia, the Allies actually take out Japan and build up enough bombers to keep Italy at 0 IPCs every turn.  They also build up enough fleet around UK to prevent Germany from ever taking it.

At this point, the Allies will still have a slight lead in economy due to most of the UK and USA NOs being met, plus they should have a large transport system set up at this point to where Germany can not protect both the Far East as well as Europe.  There are simply too many territories those transports can go to and once the Allies secure a foothold in Asia and/or Europe, it is downhill for Germany and only a matter of time before the Allies retake Russia.

It should be obvious that if Germany does not build mostly tanks on turn 1, then Russia will be able to survive even longer, making the retaking of Russia even quicker by probably saving the Far East from ever falling to the Germans.  If NOs are not being used, then it’s hard to say which side is hurt more but I would lean towards the Axis since less economy those crucial first couple of turns means that Russia might be able to hold on until turn 5.

Of course, the above is just one way it could play out.  Once Japan realizes what is happening, they may start building nothing but 8 infantry each turn, causing it take longer to take out Japan.  But then the Allies could simply respond by build less attack fleet and more transports.  Both the UK and USA go after Japan, so they can always adjust their purchases.

In my opinion, about the only way Germany might have a chance is if they get heavy bombers early on and start bombing the UK while building fleet.  But then that means less German tanks in the Far East once Russia falls and the USA can build more fleet to protect UK and UK still has over 35 IPCs to spend even after they repair the damage.

Obviously, there are plenty of ways to modify/tweak the above and I welcome any input and criticisms that you might have.

[Jennifer]

My thoughts, no particular order.

1)  I have yet been able to take out Japan before Russia falls.  Generally, I can get Japan, but usually a couple rounds after Russia has fallen and Germany’s become a monster.  Perhaps I am just not going about it correctly.

2)  Russia should be able to hold Germany back well enough if you retreat in round 1 and build nothing but offensive equipment that round. (Do not confuse this with nothing but armor/fighters for the entire game, I am only referring to round 1 purchases!)

3)  Africa seems to have actually become MORE important than anything!  I was under the impression, originally, that Africa could be shrugged off by the allies since they had NOs, but if anything, it’s even MORE important now.

[Woodstock]

This man has just found out the KJF strat for AA:50.

I actually like what you are reading…and it terrifies me as an Axis player.

I mean, with both UK and USA going all out against Japan (all pacific buy’s for USA, Indian IC, etc), what do they loose?
3 turns in europe. 3 turns they would be otherwise use to play cat & mouse with germany, responding to their moves etc, without actually being effective.
In those 3 moves, as the Allied, you could also play immediate action against JApan.
Scaring, confusing the japan player, harassing/delaying him from 3 directions (North the russians, west (india the brits), and east (the usa).
That’s a lot to handle with as the japan player.
And on turn 4, you strike with all 3 allied players.

But what about russia? in those 3 turns? I hear you think.
Well, what’s the difference with other games? Moscow falls. Usually at G3, G4…maybe even G5 if you are up against a good russian player.
And at what point is tokyo going to fall? Ow yeah, at T3, 4 ;-)

Not saying this KJF strat is optimal, but I definitely like the sound of it :)

[Jennifer]

Because most Japanese players have it set up at J1 to hit India with a lot of firepower on J2 before England can build there, I don’t see why anyone advocates building an IC in India, at least until Japan’s gotten its forces moved out into China and a turn or two away from India anyway.

[mikecool70]

@Cmdr:

My thoughts, no particular order.

1)  I have yet been able to take out Japan before Russia falls.  Generally, I can get Japan, but usually a couple rounds after Russia has fallen and Germany’s become a monster.  Perhaps I am just not going about it correctly.

2)  Russia should be able to hold Germany back well enough if you retreat in round 1 and build nothing but offensive equipment that round. (Do not confuse this with nothing but armor/fighters for the entire game, I am only referring to round 1 purchases!)

3)  Africa seems to have actually become MORE important than anything!  I was under the impression, originally, that Africa could be shrugged off by the allies since they had NOs, but if anything, it’s even MORE important now.

1)  My strategy involves the Allies taking Japan 2 or 3 turns after Russia falls.  But before that, Japan has been reduced to only 8 IPCs and is effectively out of the game.  Also, since it kicks Japan off the mainland so quickly, there are enough Chinese and Russian units left over to slow the German tanks down to one movement per turn.  Sure, Germany will probably get up to around 100 economy but by then Japan is in allied hands, a massive fleet has been built up around UK to prevent Germany from attacking it and there is also a large transport system set up so that the Allies can attack from multiple directions.

2)  Yes, I know that Russia can hold off Germany long enough till the UK and USA transports start unloading in Europe every turn and that probably makes for a quicker victory for the Allies.  This is just a strategy that I came up with because I thought it would be fun.  Everyone’s been saying that if Germany takes Moscow then it’s over for the allies but I’m trying to show that that probably is usually not true.

3)  I agree that Africa is very important.  My strategy involves building an IC in the Pacific arena.  This leaves UK with 28 IPCs, allowing UK to build another IC in South Africa or transports to help keep Africa.  Personally, I favor an IC in South Africa since the transports could be sunk by the German air force.

[mikecool70]

@Cmdr:

Because most Japanese players have it set up at J1 to hit India with a lot of firepower on J2 before England can build there, I don’t see why anyone advocates building an IC in India, at least until Japan’s gotten its forces moved out into China and a turn or two away from India anyway.

If Japan sets it up to take India on J2, then it might be best for UK to build 2 bombers instead of an IC in the Pacific Arena.  Then build more bombers the next turn and send all bombers to within striking distance of the SZ next to Japan.  Sure, UK would lose its entire air force on the turn they attack the Japanese fleet but then the USA would lose less of its fleet and air force when they followed up to wipe out the Japanese fleet around turn 4 or 5.  Plus, more units set up to attack India means less Japanese land units in Manchuria, so Russia loses less tanks when it attacks it.  Also, with all those naval units near India, USA could consider building an IC in Alaska, allowing 2 naval units per turn to be within 2 spaces of the Japan SZ.  Such an IC would be able to drop troops off into Russia every turn once the Japanese are wiped out (in addition to units the USA builds in Japan each turn).

So, what the UK and USA do is reactionary to what the Japanese do.
.

[Jennifer]

That’s what I was getting at.

I don’t think you should plan on being able to put a complex in India on UK 1.  It’s far wiser to plan on not being able to do so.  (Routinely, I see 6 Ground Units, some shore bombardment units and 2 or 3 fighters in range of India at the end of Japan round 1.  this usually results in China getting an extra infantry or two, but that’s a nuissance in 1941, not a headache like in 1942.)

[a44bigdog]

I don’t think you have thought through all of Japan’s possibilities on Round 1.
As has been stated India is not secure and japan may even let you build an IC there so they can take Australia on J2 and take the India IC a couple of turns latter. On average dice a good Japanese player should have eliminated the ability for China to even produce units by US2. Any Russian attacks south from Siberia merely liberate a territory to count towards Chinese infantry production. Japan moves between Russia and the US. Don’t plan on it still being liberated. Japan also starts with a large fleet. It takes several turns for the US to catch up. Japan also makes more money than the US and can easily out produce or equal them while still fighting in Asia. I do not like the Alaskan IC. Every game of Anniversary or Revised I have seen it in the builder of it has ultimately lost it. Also how are the Allies invading Africa if the US is building Pacific Ships?

[DarthMaximus]

I think you are likely to see Germany counter with a Baltic fleet either before Mos falls or the turn they get to cash in from the Russian bank.

Germany only needs 60 ipc to buy 2 AC, 4 dd or 62 ipc for 1 ac and 7 dd.  I don’t think the Allies can sink that fleet so easily and if they can’t sink it right away Germany will just add to it until it is safe to move to sz 6, then they start pressuring London.

Japan will also realize what is happening by J2 and …

@mikecool70:

Now yes, Germany might build a ton of tanks and sweep across Asia, but the Allies can limit those tanks to one movement per turn, so it’s going to take awhile.  In fact, Russia could even vacate all of his units from Russia the turn before it falls and slowly move East with them, leaving behind one infantry each turn.  While Germany is taking out Asia, the Allies actually take out Japan and build up enough bombers to keep Italy at 0 IPCs every turn.  They also build up enough fleet around UK to prevent Germany from ever taking it.

Germany will not go after Aisa once Mos falls.

I think this is a lot of “ifs” to account for.  Without details, I’m not conviced you can sink the J fleet (which starts with 3 AC + planes, 1 bb, 1 CA), keep Ita at 9 ipc (and buy allied boms to reduce them to 0), AND keep the Germans from going after London.

[mikecool70]

@DarthMaximus:

I think you are likely to see Germany counter with a Baltic fleet either before Mos falls or the turn they get to cash in from the Russian bank.

Germany only needs 60 ipc to buy 2 AC, 4 dd or 62 ipc for 1 ac and 7 dd.  I don’t think the Allies can sink that fleet so easily and if they can’t sink it right away Germany will just add to it until it is safe to move to sz 6, then they start pressuring London.

Japan will also realize what is happening by J2 and …

@mikecool70:

Now yes, Germany might build a ton of tanks and sweep across Asia, but the Allies can limit those tanks to one movement per turn, so it’s going to take awhile.  In fact, Russia could even vacate all of his units from Russia the turn before it falls and slowly move East with them, leaving behind one infantry each turn.  While Germany is taking out Asia, the Allies actually take out Japan and build up enough bombers to keep Italy at 0 IPCs every turn.  They also build up enough fleet around UK to prevent Germany from ever taking it.

Germany will not go after Aisa once Mos falls.

I think this is a lot of “ifs” to account for.  Without details, I’m not conviced you can sink the J fleet (which starts with 3 AC + planes, 1 bb, 1 CA), keep Ita at 9 ipc (and buy allied boms to reduce them to 0), AND keep the Germans from going after London.

Yes, what UK and USA do depends on what the Axis do.  But if Germany doesn’t go after Asia after Moscow falls, then Germany is limited to around 60 IPCs (except for the one time bonus once he takes Russia’s money).  UK can easily build 50 IPCs worth of navy on UK 3, still allowing those first two turn of builds to be used against Japan.  Remember, once the Japanese are off the mainland, they are down to at most 10 IPCs per turn.  USA can easily spend about 30 IPCs to continue on against Japan while the other 20 IPCs reinforce the UK fleet.

[a44bigdog]

Japan can have UK down to 29 or 31 IPCs by Japan 2 by itself.

[mikecool70]

@a44bigdog:

I don’t think you have thought through all of Japan’s possibilities on Round 1.
As has been stated India is not secure and japan may even let you build an IC there so they can take Australia on J2 and take the India IC a couple of turns latter. On average dice a good Japanese player should have eliminated the ability for China to even produce units by US2. Any Russian attacks south from Siberia merely liberate a territory to count towards Chinese infantry production. Japan moves between Russia and the US. Don’t plan on it still being liberated. Japan also starts with a large fleet. It takes several turns for the US to catch up. Japan also makes more money than the US and can easily out produce or equal them while still fighting in Asia. I do not like the Alaskan IC. Every game of Anniversary or Revised I have seen it in the builder of it has ultimately lost it. Also how are the Allies invading Africa if the US is building Pacific Ships?

If Japan is going all out against the UK islands and India, then they are not putting many forces into Manchuria.  If they don’t take the Chinese territory Xingxia on J2 (which Russia can reinforce with 2-4 infantry and 1 tank) then those 7 Russian tanks along with those infantry can take Suiyan on R3 and then Manchuria falls one turn earlier.  Yes, Russia doesn’t get extra income from that territory (which is actually good since that is less money for Germany to take) but Japan loses 8 IPCs since the territory is worth 3 IPCs and he loses one of his NOs, negating his gains from the UK.  Japan starts out at 17 IPCs and USA starts at 40, so Japan does not make more money than USA, even if they expand rapidly.  Japan can’t fight off Russia, USA, UK, and China all at once.  Maybe 2 or even 3 of them.  But not all 4.

The Allies don’t have to invade Africa.  They can simply build an IC in South Africa and then use some or all of the pre-existing air force to support their inf and tanks in South Africa that move northward.  Italy can’t compete with that.

[Jennifer]

Mike,

You’re sending 7 Russian Armor into China.  What are you using to keep Germany out of Moscow???

DM,

You’re spending 60-62 IPC in naval units.  What are you building to take Moscow???

You two need to play each other so I can sell tickets and popcorn! :)

Just some good hearted ribbing.

Seriously, Japan can take out all the British islands in the world with 1 transport and 1 infantry.  They’re undefended.  Everything else is pretty much used to take out Australia (which is a continent, not an island) and Asia.

[a44bigdog]

Japan starts with enough troops to take out the islands and such.  Normally by the end of J2 I have taken Philippines, Borneo, E.Indies, New Guinea, Australia, Burma, Kwangtung and all of China except Chinghai. None of that involves any purchased units. on J3 you can count on 4 infantry and 4 armor being transported from Japan plus whatever built from my 1 or 2 mainland ICs. And I say 1 or 2 because I may be placing the second on J3.

There are easier ways for the Allies to win in '41. '41 is actually more balanced than '42.

I am curious if you have even played the game yet. I noticed your first post said looking at the board. Japan becomes a monster quickly in this game.

[mikecool70]

@a44bigdog:

Japan starts with enough troops to take out the islands and such.  Normally by the end of J2 I have taken Philippines, Borneo, E.Indies, New Guinea, Australia, Burma, Kwangtung and all of China except Chinghai. None of that involves any purchased units. on J3 you can count on 4 infantry and 4 armor being transported from Japan plus whatever built from my 1 or 2 mainland ICs. And I say 1 or 2 because I may be placing the second on J3.

There are easier ways for the Allies to win in '41. '41 is actually more balanced than '42.

I am curious if you have even played the game yet. I noticed your first post said looking at the board. Japan becomes a monster quickly in this game.

I don’t own the game but I’ve played it 3 times and I downloaded the map on this forum so that I could study the map.  Yes, Japan can take out most of the UK territories by J2 but only if they send most of their fleet away from Japan.  Any remaining fleet will easily be softened by UK bombers built in UK 1 and then finished off by the USA fleet and air force (USA could even build 3 more bombers on USA 2 once they see the Japanese fleet going towards Australia). Plus, Japan will only have around 31 income to spend on J2.  They can’t afford to be building an IC on the mainland if they really want to deal with that USA fleet.

And there is no way China is going to fall if Russia sends infantry and their tank into China, unless Japan positions a lot of planes to attack on J2.  But if they do that, then more of the USA fleet survives.  So I think it all balances out.  Sure, I’m sure a good player could make this strategy more difficult to pull off but I still think Japan is screwed if this strategy is used.  Even if I’m off by one turn and can’t kick off the Japanese from the mainland and destroy their fleet until turn 6, I think it’s still doable.

[mikecool70]

@Cmdr:

Mike,

You’re sending 7 Russian Armor into China.  What are you using to keep Germany out of Moscow???

DM,

You’re spending 60-62 IPC in naval units.  What are you building to take Moscow???

You two need to play each other so I can sell tickets and popcorn! :)

Just some good hearted ribbing.

Seriously, Japan can take out all the British islands in the world with 1 transport and 1 infantry.  They’re undefended.  Everything else is pretty much used to take out Australia (which is a continent, not an island) and Asia.

Oh, I have no intention of keeping Germany out of Moscow.  I only want to make sure that Moscow doesn’t fall before G4.  I think building 6 more tanks on R2 and retreating infantry from Karelia, East Ukraine, Belorussia and Archangel to Russia will guarantee that Germany doesn’t take it on G3.  Then on R3, I could even abandon Russia and send 6 more tanks into China for a total of 13 infantry and 13 tanks in Buryatia and China.  Japan is dead.

[a44bigdog]

I have played over 20 games. If the Japanese shuttle troops from Japan to Asia in seazone 61 they are out of range of the bombers from the west US. Japan can also have a carrier here with this fleet of transports on J2 and 2 off Australia to land the fighters that took it. With NOs in play which is how most of us are playing Japan has around 41 or so to spend J2 and around 51 J3.

[Jennifer]

You have 13 Infantry, 13 Armor in Chihang by Russia 3.  I’m not going to figure out where it comes from, I’ll just assume you do.

Germany has probably close to 20 armor, 15 infantry in East Ukraine by Germany 3.

Okay, who is going to win this scenario?  Russia will fall on Germany 4.  Japan’s still going strong, probably has half of China which is not as strong as normal, but hardly weak with the 3 National Objectives it has.

America probably has bombers in Buryatia/Stanovoj to strafe unprotected transports, which is fine.  Japan can easily keep a couple of cruisers behind to play mommy for the 4 transports it needs to clear Japan each round.  Meanwhile, Japan SHOULD have 3 battleships, a couple destroyers, half a dozen submarines and 3-4 fully loaded carriers prowling the South Pacific making sure America’s at home, tucked in bed at night and not stirring up mischief.

[DarthMaximus]

@Cmdr:

Mike,

You’re sending 7 Russian Armor into China.  What are you using to keep Germany out of Moscow???

DM,

You’re spending 60-62 IPC in naval units.  What are you building to take Moscow???

You two need to play each other so I can sell tickets and popcorn! :)

:-D
The Naval build would either come on the turn prior to taking Mos since those units (unless it is a bom) won’t be able to reach or help in the attack, or on the turn you intend to take Mos (again these units can’t help), or on the turn after you take Mos and its cash where you’ll probably have 70+ ipc to spend.

[Jennifer]

The turn you are going to take Moscow would be a good time to build navy.  Nothing you build this turn CAN help.

The turn before you attack Moscow not so good, IMHO.  May as well build bombers and bring more firepower to bear.  I have found, when attacking Russia, you never have enough firepower!  I’ve lost too many battles with 5 infantry, 5 bombers, 2 shore bombardments to 1 defending infantry to EVER take less into a critical battle then I could possibly get there! (the round before, I would build 100% bombers with scraps for infantry, unless I had my complex in Poland as well, then maybe some fighters there to boot, just for good measure!)