OOB: German attack on Russia

[rocknroll]

Well, how to start? actually i am asking for opinions.

Once again i have to play germany. This time i wanted to apply another buying-scheme: mostly mech.

G1
buy: 3 art, 3 mech, 1 sub (=0 ipc saved)
turn: british fleet sunk completely, 4 subs lost; France and yugoslavia occupied; finland, bulgaria taken; planes mostly landed in n.italy,w.germany and benelux; troops go east-wards
placement: 3 art in e.germany, 3 mech in w. germany, sub in sz 113
ipcs: 61

france taken with minimum 5 tanks

G2
buy: 13 mech, 3 tank (=1 ipc saved)
turn: capture of normandy and greece (tanks from yugo and inf from bulgaria); attacking of allied fleet-remnants in the med, landing of planes in n.italy or w. germany
placement: 3 tank in e.germany, 10 mech in w. germany, 3 in france
ipcs: 54

G3
buy: 1 tank, 12 mech
turn: Attack on karelia, vyborg, baltic-states, russian baltic fleet, bessarabia; planes landing in e.poland in combination with all-german-troop-stack: 15 inf, all art, all mech, all tank, all planes except the strategic bomber, aa-gun.
placement: 10 mech in w.germany and 2 mech, 1 tank in e.germany

etc.

Italy attacks southern france, british and french fleet, n.african allied holdings (tunesia, alexandria, eventually egypt itself) Then goes first in east-poland on turn 2 therefor providing landind space for german planes G3. whether the german fleet is sunk or not, italy buys in round 1 one or two mechs sending those to the east in round 2. can-opener etc.

so, what you think about this?

[Spitfire38]

I really like the idea of mech inf. purchases by Germany for Barbarossa. For one, it makes for a good supply chain because they can move 2. My only thoughts are that you might need some more punching power to get throughout the initial Russian lines, especially if your tanks are attacking and occupying France in G2 and G3. Maybe a little bit more tanks on G2 buy or some artillery to put onto the lines for the initial assault. After that, I think mech inf. is a great buy and good strategy. Pair with tactical bombers and you’re good to go  :-D

[lamdan]

I may be wrong but Your G2 buy adds to 70 IPC and you only have 61 IPC. Anyway we always go barbarossa in our group and we buy tanks. Your G1 buy is good but on G2, 8 tanks at least and start barbarossa. I feel the quicker you attack Russia the better. I also buy subs to keep the navy in check and prevent britains NO.

[rocknroll]

ooops. your are right.

then it should be in G2 3 tanks (18) an 10 mech (40)= 3 saved. i got slightly confused.
but, i think a buy of 8 tanks is too one-sided. one attack on russia, and all shielding units are gone. therefor i think, buying one tank per subsequent rounds is enough.
by turn G3 there are already 12 tanks in attacking range combined with 20+ mech, 7 art, 10 inf, minimum 3 tacticals.

the advise of buying more art, i like it. maybe on G3 3 more art placed in e.germany.

and: italy is forced to commit its share in the east, too. this makes it easier for the UK to keep africa, maybe.

this strategy is thought to conquer novgorod in G5, so the german attack can wait to G4 giving room to gather more units, which means, too, that russia can defend better. on the other hand, germany gains speed a lot! making it harder for the russian player to know, where germany will strike.

thanks for the reply.

[lamdan]

Yes, you are probably right. My tank to inf-art proportion is too one-sided but I love having a massive tank army going through Russia even if it is costly and the western front suffers.

[Spitfire38]

@lamdan:

Yes, you are probably right. My tank to inf-art proportion is too one-sided but I love having a massive tank army going through Russia even if it is costly and the western front suffers.

well, the point of the game, at least for me, is to have fun! Its just a game, so strategies aside, it’s fun to have a tank army.  :-D

[The Admirable Admiral]

Buy all tanks first two turns.  Attack all out with concentration to leningrad if Russia abandons/lightly defends it capture with all tanks and inf from finland. If strongly defends ignore and go to Moscow by turn 2 start shuffling all motorized units from France to Russia. turn 3 start defending Europe with infantry and move to Moscow one space per turn and Moscow should be yours by turn 5.  If Leningrad is yours buy two tac if allies sent support to Moscow or if you think you need more support.

[Pherman1215]

I really like this idea. Germany starts the game with a significant number of power units (tanks, planes, art), if you simply support these with large numbers of mech infantry you will have a large and mobile fighting force that can put a hurting on Russia.  Good call.

[rocknroll]

and to buy time for italia, i think, the G1 buy should be as usual: 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 submarine.
even if one won´t go for UK, gibraltar can be captured by this fleet and the german presence in the mediterranian helps italy a lot in the fight vs the UK.
beginning in G2 with buying mobile forces only, maybe one sub per round, too, should be adequate to deal with russia and the UK. (i hope :D)
but getting moscow in G5 is a bit too optimistic in my opinion.

on the other hand, getting to leningrad in G5 is kind of clear. this means moscow in G7 at earliest. therefore a G5-buy should be made of planes and defending units (mostly infantry) as all subsequent turns.

greetings

[Endeer]

If the germans are attacking russia, the italians (if they control cairo) can blitz tanks and mech. infantry through the territories (such as iraq and persia) up and into the caucuses. on this turn the Italians can usually drop mech. infantry and tanks on Rostov. this surrounds a normally un protected Stalingrad and than take it next turn with force of 6 Mech. infantry, and 2 tanks. This plan assumes that the italians have their two transports and controls cairo and the med. sea. This can be a huge upset for the soviets and cause them to buy on a different front thus causing an unbalance and the germans to blitz for leningrad, which once held can lead to a defeat of moscow. Usually one can also bring in italian fighters if in position. That would mean moving them into a conquered north west persia.

[rocknroll]

but as you say:

“This plan assumes that the italians have their two transports and controls cairo and the med. sea.”

IMHO: that is kind of never happening, isn´t it? mostly the italian fleets get sunk even before it could get into action. italy is way too much distracted from russia. this means it is not really usefull as a can-opener.
it has to focus on southern europe, northern africa, and only in 3rd position, helping germany in russia in clearing up the rest of russia and its troops.

but i did some thinking about a decent german attack on russia. i found out some interesting facts that may help to win this game as the axis.

• first of all: don´t try sealion-tactics as germany! too much money invested in navy with no real gain.  even ignore yugoslavia, it is italy´s job to conquer yogslavia. this said, i would propose a mostly-mech-inf buy. james aleman already outlined some time ago an idea i adopted and adapted it recently.

in the first turn just sack france and destroy the british home-fleet. leave the battleship in seazone 113. move into finland and bulgaria, send most airforce to northern italy. build a destroyer, attack greece and russia on round two, taking out russia´s navy and taking karelia and east poland. all in! :D there wait one round to gather land units and planes building a 2nd transport and reinforce karelia from finland in G3. move into belarus, if possible take leningrad in G4. then bryansk - and leningrad if not done before - in G5 or smolensk depending on the situation. G6 or G7 into moscow!

buys suggested are:
round one: 3 art, 3 mech, 1 sub.
round two: 1 destroyer, 10 mech, 2 tanks.
round three: 10 mech, 2 tanks, 1 transport.
round four: 13 mech and rest infantry paired with one artillery.
round five: infantry, some artillery, maybe a fighter or tanks.
round six: unpredictable. mostly infantry, i guess! :D

• italy has to get egypt in round or two, as the odds would suggest. even if the UK does a tarranto-raid, the remainder of the italian fleet should care only about the french navy and getting troops to africa. the rest should take southern france and yugoslavia. it is no problem to ignore french northern africa. actually, i think the gain in ipcs is not worth the pain loosing troops. gathering all troops in one point - egypt - is the only task for them.
  if there is nothing to do for a british fleet in the med, this will leave to help a landing in france. (i know this a momentum of gamble a bit) if not, good for ol´ germany.the italian troops from europe should move to the east, main task: take stalingrad and clear up behind the frontlines if necessary. but not after round three! home defence!

suggested buys are:
round one: one sub, but only if there is no (!!!) destroyer in range to attack. if there is one building 2 inf should be adequate. saving 4 ipcs.
round two: more subs or minor IC for egypt or more infantry.
round three: minimum 2 destroyers, remaining ipcs in infantry considering the outcome of round one and two. therefor not really predictable.

if russia would counterattack in belarus this would help germany getting into moscow. if russia defend belarus it mostly gets down to (assuming that russia always buys 6 inf, 1 art, 1 tank:

ger vs.  rus
19        25 infantry
08        05 artelliry
13        02 mech infantry
10        05 tanks
02        02 fighters
03        01 tactical bomber
01 strategic bomber.

all german tanks, artillery and planes should survive this battle when i am not mistaken. followed by lots of mech built in round three and four, moscow should fall soon after such kind of battle in belarus occured. if not there, then in bryansk, sake of the mechanized infantry.

this for the moment, i would like to discuss this strategy.
where are fundamental flaws to be found? or tweaks to better this strat?

greetings

rock´n roll

[Endeer]

This does sound like a good plan. I have one question though, how would the Italian fleet be taken on the first round. I would say that even if the british moved all their ships into the seazone containing the french fleet, there would still be a high probability of victory for the Italians.

Battleship, cruiser x2, destroyer, and two fighters making a 4,3,3,3,3,2.
vs.
Cruiser x3, Destroyer, Carrier, fighter, tac. Bomber. making a 4,3,3,3,3,2,2

These odds are definitely against the Italians. However. The English and french can not attack the fleet and are there for useless in the Mediterranean seeing as if the english attacked the would loose a cruiser and destroyer, and the french wouldn’t even dream of attacking. So strategically, the Italians may not have the Med. sea. but if they have protected transports, and cairo the plan will work to the same effect giving an duel axis front on russia which can be potent seeing as the caucuses are almost always unprotected.

[Endeer]

This does sound like a good plan. I have one question though, how would the Italian fleet be taken on the first round. I would say that even if the british moved all their ships into the seazone containing the french fleet, there would still be a high probability of victory for the Italians.

Battleship, cruiser x2, destroyer, and two fighters making a 4,3,3,3,3,2.
vs.
Cruiser x3, Destroyer, Carrier, fighter, tac. Bomber. making a 4,3,3,3,3,2,2

These odds are definitely against the Italians. However. The English and french can not attack the fleet and are there for useless in the Mediterranean seeing as if the english attacked the would loose a cruiser and destroyer, and the french wouldn’t even dream of attacking. So strategically, the Italians may not have the Med. sea. but if they have protected transports, and cairo the plan will work to the same effect giving an duel axis front on russia which can be potent seeing as the caucuses are almost always unprotected. This is usually just to divert much needed forces off the german front. or if neglected than a push into Stalingrad.

[rocknroll]

as UK you should attack the italian BB and cruiser in sz 95 with your cruiser from sz98, destroyer, carrier and tactical bomber from sz 91 and a fighter from the british isles. with this it can easily be achieved to sink the better part of the italian fleet.
a counter-attack by italy would not be wise as it means mostly sacrificing all remaining navy and the two fighters, which are crucial to win as the axis.

that is why i propose to attack the french fleet instead, because france still has to move and can flee from the med. the italian cruiser is likely to survive in there. the italian transport does one mission: leaving two troops in the near east (egypt or jordania), just for blocking the suez.

because france´s turn is behind italy´s, france can be stalled completely!

[Endeer]

You bring up a valid point, the english would definitely be able to take the Italian Battleship, cruiser, and transport. But with a cost, if they attack with a carrier, destroyer, cruiser and a tac. bomber, than these two forces would endure (most-likely) two rounds of combat, in which good rolls or bad rolls would determine the English fleet. So depending on what is left of the english, that is what i would base my attack with the remaining italian fleet. One more question. Where else would the Italian Air-Force be needed?

[rocknroll]

the cost for the british is low. you forgot in this attack the fighter from the UK. therefor:
at maximum loosing a destroyer and a fighter which can be reinforced from the isles since germany won´t go sealion. mostly it takes only one combat round to sink this italian fleet.

and to answer your question: to defend in egypt til the IC is built and after that returning home to rome, sake of defence or in the east supporting the germans.
if italy gets it done to build some subs in the med the fighters can be a real good company to them fighting allied ships.

[rocknroll]

i had the opportunity to try this strat. :D it worked quite well…which means: success! :D

first time ever in any axis&allies game i had played before i conquered moscow! :evil:

despite the fact that russia destroyed flawlessly the german navy and gained all rounds its archangelsk-bonus, it worked. my opponent did not believe in my success til we had thrown the dices in G6.

19 hits the first two combat-rounds by germany in moscow, 16 and 12 made by russia. last round 10 hits vs. 4. 26 IPCs taken made up 85 IPCs for Germany which already fortified france and w. germany.

UK focussed on africa, it did not destroy the italian fleet as i would suggest. this way there was much more freedom in playing italy. afterwards the UK had to put units into africa delaying a decent landing on continental europe.

the US was quite undecided where to go: gibraltar or norway. no consistent strategy worked for the axis, more exactly spoken: any possibility in retaking the 8th victory city was almost made impossible.

i attached the battlemap-module at round R6 since the game would last two more rounds til the 8th VC would be in axis´ hands.

rock`n roll

2011-05-27 G6.AAM

[Endeer]

Well my Italian strategy might have changed with the logic you bring. I would probably focus on controlling egypt and eventually the Mediterranean. But if things go your way on turn one for the Italians, this plan may be worth trying. Also from the English point of view I would probably attack first turn with the Mediterranean fleet this seems like a fruitful way to take the Mediterranean with the limited supplied Fleet the english and french pull together that I have overlooked. looking forward to trying this attack on italy next time I play English.

[rocknroll]

good luck!

please tell me what kind of attack the axis launched on russia and UK.

[rocknroll]

can anyone help me?

i calculated the strat outlined below through once more, this time with no taranto-raid. it beared the same outcome: victory for the axis in round 6!
because i “played” against myself with virtual dices on the battlemap-module, i am not quite sure, if this strat is kind of being a nearly 100%-winning-scheme for the axis.

as russia i acted normaly, i guess (in fact knowing the style of the coming attack). retreating from leningrad to belarus, well fortified there, but still loosing every valuable unit against a determined german force. two rounds later, moscow taken with one tank!

therefore my plead: how would you play the russians? or the british?

how to avoid being crushed in belarus? is it wise as russia to retreat via archangelsk?

etc.?