Why the Allies have the upper hand

[Alair]

That’s one way of looking at it…. but that doesn’t take into account the whole picture.

Karelia on it’s own is worth 2… so by having the fighters on Karelia Russia loses 3 production (fighters mean $5 less but keeps Karelia’s $2 production)… plus keeps another factory.  That factory is huge for Germany.  Germany has problems supplying infantry to the front, so not letting them take it is big.

Plus, Germany gets $5 for taking Karelia or Caucassus.  So the real calculation should be:

Russia - loses $3 and keeps Karelia, isolating Finland and all that area off from the rest of Germany meaning America/Britan can take it easily.
Germany - loses $7 and stays at one factory… where they only start with Germany itself.

To me it’s a no brainer.

Something else, I looked at it again.  If Germany attacks the BB off Iceland then they will lose airforce, so 2 fighters will suffice to keep Karelia.  If not, transport a tank and army off England along with the 2 fighters into SZ4 just north of Karelia.  That’s what I’m going to try my next game.

[AdamD021]

The Japanese monster is too much for the Americans to handle. The japanese navy is a juggernaught with 3 carriers and 6 planes, a BB and other assorted goodies. Sure the US can toss 40 or so IPCs at the Pacific but Japan has such a head start on a Navy AND has a mountain of money to keep building a navy equal to or greater than the American Navy.

[Uncle_Joe]

The Japanese monster is too much for the Americans to handle. The japanese navy is a juggernaught with 3 carriers and 6 planes, a BB and other assorted goodies. Sure the US can toss 40 or so IPCs at the Pacific but Japan has such a head start on a Navy AND has a mountain of money to keep building a navy equal to or greater than the American Navy.

We thought that at first too - and promptly abandoned the Pacific altogether. But as we’ve played more games, its become apparent to our group that the US almost MUST oppose the Japanese in the Pacific. Japan’s huge econ converted into Bombers and Tanks to flatten Russia while Germany/Italy go defensive seems to result in an Axis victory more often than not.

Its evident that a LOT of playtesting went into the Pacific conflict for this version. Its taken a few games, but I have a pretty good handle on the ebb and flow of the fight. Our first US Pacific ‘strat’ resulted in both side just hording up ships in their respective home ports. Neither side felt strong enough to force the fight and the arms race continued until Germany was finally beaten. Since then, I’ve learned some nuances with the map that allow the US to threaten the DEI (and Japan’s bonus money!) without really exposing the US fleet to undue risk (or at least without allowing a chance for a deadly counterattack). In turn, this forces Japan to commit a LOT of IPCs to fighting the US fleet and that means they cant easily translate their econ into pressure on Russia (or ripping up the Brits in the Middle East/Africa).

My feeling with Japan so far is that they can do ANYTHING, but they cant do EVERYTHING. But if you leave them alone in the Pacific, Russia is going to go downhill pretty quickly. It may not exactly be ‘realistic’, but I believe if the Allies go for a total KGF, Germany/Italy can hold longer than Russia can.

[Alair]

@Uncle_Joe:

The Japanese monster is too much for the Americans to handle. The japanese navy is a juggernaught with 3 carriers and 6 planes, a BB and other assorted goodies. Sure the US can toss 40 or so IPCs at the Pacific but Japan has such a head start on a Navy AND has a mountain of money to keep building a navy equal to or greater than the American Navy.

We thought that at first too - and promptly abandoned the Pacific altogether. But as we’ve played more games, its become apparent to our group that the US almost MUST oppose the Japanese in the Pacific. Japan’s huge econ converted into Bombers and Tanks to flatten Russia while Germany/Italy go defensive seems to result in an Axis victory more often than not.

Its evident that a LOT of playtesting went into the Pacific conflict for this version. Its taken a few games, but I have a pretty good handle on the ebb and flow of the fight. Our first US Pacific ‘strat’ resulted in both side just hording up ships in their respective home ports. Neither side felt strong enough to force the fight and the arms race continued until Germany was finally beaten. Since then, I’ve learned some nuances with the map that allow the US to threaten the DEI (and Japan’s bonus money!) without really exposing the US fleet to undue risk (or at least without allowing a chance for a deadly counterattack). In turn, this forces Japan to commit a LOT of IPCs to fighting the US fleet and that means they cant easily translate their econ into pressure on Russia (or ripping up the Brits in the Middle East/Africa).

My feeling with Japan so far is that they can do ANYTHING, but they cant do EVERYTHING. But if you leave them alone in the Pacific, Russia is going to go downhill pretty quickly. It may not exactly be ‘realistic’, but I believe if the Allies go for a total KGF, Germany/Italy can hold longer than Russia can.

I agree 100%.

Taking India on J2 is the equivalent of a KEF strategy and the USA should move against them accordingly.

When I did the J2 India the USA got a ton of bonus income from national objs because I neglected to take some key points.  I think Japan focusing on England and then Russia first should mean that USA builds a massive feat and comes in early.  If Japan focuses on on the US then England should have a IC on India.

Looking at the game more, it’s just like the first AA.  If the allies want to build an IC on India, there’s nothing the Axis can do about it, you should have to do some moves to assure you get it.  With that being said, I still think it’s balanced against the allies.

[Count_Zeppelin]

IMHO the 41 scenario (Tech / no NOs) is balanced with neighter the axis nor the allies having the advantage. Sure, the first round germany and japan are almost unstoppable, but in turn 2 and 3 the tides turn. Earlier or later the germans stick in russian mud with his royal navy bombarding the western territories and the japanese forces wear thin in China while the United States Navy regains combat strengt. I played about 6 games in the 41 scenario, and both sides had equal wins.

[Jennifer]

I think that Russia building infantry in Round 1 is asking for problems.  You have no ability to take land.  If you send that armor to Karelia and you didn’t buy any, Germany’s basically free to stack the front lines iwth armor all day long because odds are, each one is going to take out 2 infantry if you attack them.

Just my opinion of the original post on that aspect.

Next aspect:  America cannot ignore Japan.  If they do, japan will come knock on California’s door and as if Mr. Roosevelt can come out and play.

[Count_Zeppelin]

@Cmdr:

I think that Russia building infantry in Round 1 is asking for problems.  You have no ability to take land.  If you send that armor to Karelia and you didn’t buy any, Germany’s basically free to stack the front lines iwth armor all day long because odds are, each one is going to take out 2 infantry if you attack them.

Just my opinion of the original post on that aspect.

Next aspect:  America cannot ignore Japan.  If they do, japan will come knock on California’s door and as if Mr. Roosevelt can come out and play.

I  basically agree with the above said.

Russia building only infantry in round 1 is asking for problems -
Russia has to develop offensive capabilities as well as retain the advantages of numerical solid defense - what IMHO calls for a mixed infantry-artillery-tank buy. I also like aircraft, but i belive that mobile (tank-) forces wich can conquer territories have a better early- and mid-game payof than aircraft.

America cannot ignore Japan -
I believe that japan should never try to attack the american continent - it just is not economical and there is no gain in it. Better conquer all the islands and force the american to invest in expensive naval units. The USA do not have to be afraid of some land units landed in alaska. Thats units transported in expensive transports occupying expensive fleet operation time only to be destroyed by cheap US land forces and aircraft the US will have to build to deal with the japanese navy anyway - killing of landed units is just not a problem. I prefer taking every british IP island and mainland territory.

[Jennifer]

One should also note that W. Canada is no longer connected to the Ocean north of Alaska, making defense there harder for America. (You have to fly over Alaska to get there, pretty much kills your bombers in England being able to attack!)

As for Japan, I did not mean to imply they would TAKE W. USA, just come knocking on the door. (Basically taking Hawaii and threatening to invade.  Pretty much forces USA to build SOMETHING in W. USA.)

BTW, why do people forget that Poland is worth 3 IPC?  You can easily build a factory there to produce more ground units to the front, either southern front or northern front and if you are bombed, the MAX you can take is 6 IPC, not 12 like in France (which also is FARTHER from the front than Poland and thus, a lesser place to put a complex in my mind.)

Basically, Karelia is fine, but it’s so far from Caucasus it doesn’t help much there.  Poland, while it costs you 15 IPC to make the complex, 6 IPC to put a gun on it (preferably with radar as well, min 5 IPC there) it allows you to immediately dump units into the Russian front and it’s pretty much immune from attack until Germany is losing the war anyway.

[Ó Ruanaidh]

Poland is also only one territory away from Germany, and unlike France, has only a coast on the Baltic. So is it worth 15 IPC’s simply to save one move? I don’t think so, whereas in France, one could build ships in three different sea zones and maintain a link with North Africa. Even if that means throwing one or two units across every now and again, England will have to deal with that, and it will most likely ignore France anyway, if there is a large build-up and AA gun. I think If I were Germany and going to place an IC anywhere, it would be in France. Not to mention that’s a perfect spot to lauch a U-boat war from, as the British cannot simply bottle ships put out here up in the Baltic.

What I think is that the German player should decide right away whether he is going for an all out “destroy Russia ASAP” strategy, or if he is going to go for a strategy of fighting Russia mostly, but also harassing the U.K. and supporting Italy. The U.K. and U.S. can long be distracted by the war at sea, and the war in Africa, perhaps enough to let Germany destroy Russia. I myself would go for the latter strategy, as I hate seeing games where England goes about sailing freely with 2 destroyers and 10 transports, with nothing to oppose them, with subs coming out of the Bay of Biscay every now and again then the British will have to spend more to convoy their transports, and to defend their pricey capital ships, which a lucky sneak attack can destroy real quickly. So it’s a test to see who spends more, either Germany, by building a factory and subs, or the U.K., by building counters to the subs, and sending more units to Africa.

[Jennifer]

Benefits of a Polish Industrial Complex:

Russia is only 3 spaces away
Karelia is only 2 spaces away
Caucasus is only 3 spaces away

If the complex is bombed, it cannot take more than 6 IPC in damage, unlike France which can take 12.

The complex is almost unimpeachable.  France could fall to massive allied landings.  If the allies have the strength to take Poland, they’ll take Germany instead.

Yes, the draw back is only SZ 5 to build in.  Then again, why are you building navies???

[Ó Ruanaidh]

I should hardly use the word “navies” still less fleets. Just cheap ships every now and again that cannot be immediately neutralized by Perfidious Albion. Essentially, it is in Germany’s best interests to keep at least some ships afloat. That way the Americans and English cannot sail about where-ever they please and have to spend precious ICP’s on counters to sink Germany’s subs or destroyers. I hardly advocate building Battleships or carriers, though a cruiser every now and again can’t hurt. I guess it all depends on what type of player you are, the type of players your opponents are, and the particular situation you are in relative to the game.

[Jennifer]

America and England are going to bloody well float whereever they want too.  Absolutely nothing you can do about this.

If you are facing 7 cruisers and a Battleship with England, you might want to plop down a destroyer each round.  Outside of that, you shouldn’t even think about navy with Germany until Russia is defeated and your planes have cleared the North Atlantic of all hostile ships, IMHO.

[Uncle_Joe]

7 Cruisers and a Battleship?! Again, I guess we are just playing COMPLETELY different scales of games. Our games NEVER last long enough for England to build that up (unless they are being stupid and building nothing else, anyways). Brit fleets in our games are usually a CV, maybe a BB, and a few CAs/DDs depending on whether Germany is building planes en masse or not.

I would be REALLY curious to see some AARs for any online games played. I know everyone ends up falling into some form of ‘group think’ but I can only conclude that our games look nothing like some of the games I see folks posting various builds for.

FWIW, we dont play out to the bitter end of game. So if the Axis are defeated, we dont drag it out and wait for the huge fleets. I guess to put it simply, while the game is still competitive, we never see fleets the size of those I’ve seen posted here. Our games are usually very fast moving and no one really has time or resources to sit back and pile on the ships.

[Jennifer]

I only mentioned it because U505 has blown every penny England has ever had on getting 7 Cruisers for his Battleship so he can have 8 Shore Bombardments each time he lands.

It’s an okay tactic I guess, but I’d rather have 7 bombers myself.

[Ó Ruanaidh]

And you could completely counter that strategy with but one destroyer or Sub, negating the shore bombardment of all those ships. To let the allies sail about where-ever they desire is foolish in my opinion. As they can take advantage of every situation, moving troops anywhere faster than you, and even prop up the Russians at the last second from the sea. Also, I’ve successfully used weak ships as bait. In the game I played tonight I used a destroyer based of France to bring two British ships (both cruisers) close to the shore, where one was sunk by the destroyer and the other by aircraft my next turn. Also, keeping at least one transport around forces the British to keep some troops in the U.K. itself, as when I’m England, I can usually empty the British Isles of all my troops without having to worry at all, since the people who play Germany, like you, concentrate solely on the destruction of Russia, and I therefore have freedom of action everywhere and anywhere I choose. It all depends on your style though I suppose, if taking Russia out quick while neglecting the sea works for you, then go for it, but I always see it as chancey that Germany will knock Russia out before the U.K./U.S. can bring large forces across the sea without hinderance, with all those uninterrupted shore bombardments.

[axis_roll]

@Ó:

And you could completely counter that strategy with but one destroyer or Sub, negating the shore bombardment of all those ships.

FYI, a sub would not stop offshores, as the attacking cruisers/BB can choose to just ignore the sub (or transports).

@Ó:

It all depends on your style though I suppose, if taking Russia out quick while neglecting the sea works for you, then go for it, but I always see it as chancey that Germany will knock Russia out before the U.K./U.S. can bring large forces across the sea without hinderance

The thing about Atlantic fleets:
The Allies HAVE to build one, Germany can win without or with(?) one.

But since the allies will almost assuredly build ships, why should Germany invest in a navy that will be eventually lost or whose cost is so detrimental to their main objective of pressuring Russia? To Jens point, I would rather have 3 bombers instead of threee German cruisers in sz5.  A navy is pretty one dimensional, and for Germany would most likely be more defensive then offensive.  Sure you can ‘threaten’ London or use those boats in conjunction with a Luftwaffe attack on the allied navy, but a good allied player would not let those happen.  They would play close to the vest with their fleet, adding to it defensively and moving ever closer to the Baltic sea, supporting Russia by opening a back door that has been left weak due to the small number of ground units.  Those dollars were spent on the German navy, not on boots on the ground.

Perhaps if all Germany did was build inf and a navy early on for a few rounds, it might work.  This is the ULTIMATE conservative Germany.

I believe that when you can make your opponent react to your moves/strategy, you are winning the game (notice I didn’t say that you have won).  This is for either the allies or the axis.  A reactive approach is usually a losing one.

[Ó Ruanaidh]

Fair enough. I completely forgot that subs are useless for blocking in AA50. Anyhow, I found out that a group of destroyers and transports, backed by one cruiser, should always be in the Baltic. In the game I played last night, the U.K. player had a vast fleet lying in the SZ between Iceland and England, because he feared being attacked by German bombers in SZ 6. So amazingly, the German player pulled off the unexpected. He was bogged down in Russia, so he lashed out and landed 2 infantry and 2 artillery, plus the cruiser shot, and all of his planes in England. Needless to say, he took the U.K.'s capital even while they had a massive fleet right there. So Germany, simply because it chose to keep some ships tucked and out of the way in the Baltic won that game at a stroke by boldly assailing the U.K.

Now I’m not saying this is going to happen every time, and if the British player had been paying attention, he would have destroyed the German Fleet in the Baltic, but he was to in love with his ships, which he feared losing to Germany’s planes. Also, he should not have been so confident in his naval power as to leave merely 2 infantry and 1 tank, with 2 fighters as the sole defense of England. Anyway, what I’m trying to say is you should have ships somewhere to take advantage of any opportunity. And I particularly like subs sprawled out across the seas, sneak attacking any lone ships. It’s worked for me many times, and ships are incredibly useful in attacking Karelia. I think if Russia does a stupid buy one turn (unlikely, but it does happen) than Germany should use that turn to pump out ships, as that’s what happened basically last night. The Russian player bought 2 fighters 2 artillery and a cruiser, for god knows what reason, he told his allies that “He had a plan.” Anyway, this took pressure off the Russian front, which allowed the German player to expand his fleet, to dire consequences.

It’s obvious that the Allies will control the sea, as the U.K. will more than likely be spending most of it’s money in securing the Atlantic against Italy and Germany, and the U.S. likewise with the Pacific against Japan. However, by building ships every so often, you concentrate their focus on the seas. If you have no ships, than they will not bother to buy anymore, and instead prepare for amphibious assaults in Europe, or by bombing the hell out of everything. If the Fleets disappear than Italy loses it’s bonuses, and the U.K. secures all theirs (unless Japan takes India or Australia), not to say that Italy is relegated to doing nothing as they cannot expand anywhere. If nothing else than at least Italy should be building ships. There’s nothing I hate more than seeing allied ships sprawled out by Canada and Eastern U.S., transports with only one destroyer as escort, or with no escort at all, and not being able to do anything about it. Having ships forces their fleets to stay together for fear of being picked off, and that lets you slip past them in the night, and capture territories not contiguous with your capital. Hardly something I would throw away lightly.

[claborne]

IMO the allies do indeed have the upper hand.  US can easily ignore Japan and pour everything into Europe.  Japan trying to take west coast or even build enough stuff to scare the US is not going to accomplish anything besides wasting 2x as much money as the US spends to defend it.  In the games I’ve played Germany is pretty much sunk by the time Japan has enough to put a legitimate threat on Moscow.

[Ó Ruanaidh]

I disagree. Japan usually moves fast and far, and if the U.S. ignores them, then they move opposed across the Pacific. By the time Germany goes down, You’ll have a monster Japan that can destroy the Allies in detail. I’m usually a British Player and I don’t dare ignore Japan, I try and do what I can to stop them from tearing across that half of the board. If you ignore them, than you’ll see U.K. and Russia losing all kinds of money, as well as forfeiting U.K.'s NO, and the U.S.'s as well. Bad idea in my opinion.

[Uncle_Joe]

If the US ignores Japan, I think Japan can make a mess out of Russia faster than the US can make a mess out of Germany. With no US Pacific threat, the Japanese can quickly reduce Brit money to minimal. She can also take away all but 1 of the US NOs, leaving the US making ~43 IPCs a turn while Japan is heading up to 60+. With that kind of disparity, Japan can make nuisance attacks on the US West Coast to pin forces and cause the US to waste on defense while at the same time, sending tanks and bombers to wreck Russia.

Economically, the US ignoring the Pacific usually results in about:
US: ~43 IPCs/turn
UK: ~22-26 IPCs/turn
USSR: ~25 IPCs/turn

90-95/turn

Japan: ~60+ IPCs/turn
Germany: ~32-38 IPCs/turn
Italy: ~10-15 IPcs/turn

102-113/turn

On top of that, both the US and UK pretty much have to ship everything they want to send meaning an overhead of TRs and fleets to protect them. Japan shares some of that, but Germany and Italy do not, meaning every IPC they spend will be either airpower (forcing larger naval defense) or boots on the ground for defense or for trading with Russia.

Obviously this requires an experienced Japanese player to recognize the situation and quickly build to simultaneously expel Britain from the area, take the US NOs away, and smash Russia into paste. But left completely alone by the US, it really isnt that hard to do all of those things AND threat the US West Coast/Alaska with nuisance raids.