Getting your IPCs back if you don't deploy

[djensen]

I know this was one of the rule changes for online. I’m not sure why it was done but I really like it. Since we’re not allowed to “go back” before dice are rolled, it gives you an easy out if you made a mistake. Or if a battle goes poorly, you don’t have to deploy that thing that will be destroyed immediately.

In general, I prefer fewer phases and I hope future versions of A&A just put buy and deploy at the end of the round.

[redrum]

@djensen Agree. Many TripleA maps have moved to this configuration where you just purchase and place after all moves/battle phases. While there is a little bit of strategic nature to purchasing at the start before battles are rolled, its generally pretty minimal in compared to the amount of effort to try to predict all your moves and results to see what you want to buy.

[djensen]

It definitely speeds up the game. I feel like timed tournaments should move to this as well.

[aardvarkpepper]

@djensen said in Getting your IPCs back if you don't deploy:

It definitely speeds up the game. I feel like timed tournaments should move to this as well.

Can’t agree - whether this is regarding getting IPCs back if you don’t deploy, or whether this is regarding buying and deploying at end of round.

The speeding up, sure. Personally I’d favor allowing purchase phase after combat movement.

But purchasing after combat means a player knows outcomes of battles. The game then becomes less about risk management and more a simple optimization exercise.

As to getting IPCs back if you don’t deploy - I can’t really favor it. Had a game in which UK player ideally would wipe out a German fleet by buying a carrier to create a legal landing zone for additional fighters. By board game rules, the UK player would have to have placed the carrier, then the carrier could easily be wiped on the German player’s turn (they had plenty of air force). But by 1942 Online rules, the UK player didn’t even have to place the carrier; they could buy the carrier to create a potential landing zone, then not place the carrier, never giving Germany an odds-on attack against a poorly defended 14 IPC unit.

1942 Online has a load of changes to the board game - non-use of allied transports and carriers, floating fighters when defending carriers destroyed, submarines can’t be ignored, blitzes are automated and can’t be opted out from, sea unit movement, just this big list. I wish I could say I thought the changes improvements, but I confess to being disappointed.

[djensen]

I’ll have to take it back. I don’t like the IPCs getting returned but would I do like is purchase and deploy at the end of the turn. That added complexity slows down games and the game does not need more strategic elements, it’s already chalk full of them.

The problem with getting your IPCs back is that it allows for a situation (demonstrated to me by @JuliusBorisovBeamdog) that breaks essential rules of the game, namely that fighters are not allowed to be destroyed without a place to land.

You can buy 2 aircraft carriers to potentially be deployed in a area that extends the range of 4 fighters. Then you can send those fighters out into battle and never deploy the aircraft carriers, essentially a suicide fighter mission.

This 100% a bug, basically a cheat and needs to be fixed. I think the best way to fix it is to restore the rule that you MUST deploy ALL of your units at the end of the turn. If you do not, you LOSE those IPCs.

[djensen]

This (with all the other problems, including the one with subs) makes me less excited to continue playing AA42 Online.

[JuliusBorisovBeamdog]

@djensen What I did was to buy 2 ACs in Karelia so that 4 my fighters from Germany could get there after attacking the SZ next to Norway. However, during the combat, all 4 fighters were destroyed, this is why I didn’t buy the ACs.

Also, please take into account that the yesterday patch addressed the ACs/fighters situation and implemented the rule from the tabletop game.

What is the issue with subs?

[DoManMacgee]

@JuliusBorisovBeamdog What was changed about Fighters, out of curiosity? I have not been able to play AAO in a few days because work has been extremely busy, but I’ve been watching things from afar.

I saw the email this morning noting that there was a patch, but I can’t actually ready the notes from work. Does this fix stop the “Fighters float in the air when their Carrier is destroyed” exploit that I remarked on a few weeks ago?

[aardvarkpepper]

@JuliusBorisovBeamdog said in Getting your IPCs back if you don't deploy:

@djensen What I did was to buy 2 ACs in Karelia so that 4 my fighters from Germany could get there after attacking the SZ next to Norway. However, during the combat, all 4 fighters were destroyed, this is why I didn’t buy the ACs.

Also, please take into account that the yesterday patch addressed the ACs/fighters situation and implemented the rule from the tabletop game.

What is the issue with subs?

Which issue with subs? Of the stuff I’ve reported that I remember offhand there’s not being able to ignore subs, subs not being able to submerge in one part of the board but not another as defensive profiles can’t be switched out by territory, subs being stuck in sea zones if enemy subs present, inability to move subs into appropriate sea zones to control lines of retreat.

OF course it might be an entirely different issue. And of the above, possibly the third may have been fixed (or not, I don’t know as I haven’t tested it recently).

@djensen - Needing to deploy all units or losing them with no IPC refund isn’t quite how it works in 1942. If you purchase more units than you can place due to production limitations, excess units that cannot be placed can be refunded. So you could legitimately pull off that carrier non-placement thing under certain conditions - say Germany had 59 IPC, controlled ICs on Karelia, Germany, and Italy, bought 15 infantry and 1 carrier, then it wouldn’t be able to place one of the units and would get a refund per 1942 version board game rules. But the current 1942 Online implementation just gives a flat refund and allows players to not place purchased units, which isn’t correct and which can be exploited as mentioned.

@DoManMacgee - The “floating fighter” when defending carrier destroyed was not an “exploit” as such, rather it was one of the planned changes that was deliberately introduced to the game with 1942 Online. I suppose they decided to implement changing it to work in the same way as the board game, though, which I think is to the good.

[JuliusBorisovBeamdog]

@DoManMacgee We have implemented the automatic landing and/or crashing of stranded Fighters in the ocean when their accompanying Aircraft Carrier has been destroyed while defending during the Combat Phase. Fighters will now seek out a valid landing zone within 1 space of the current region (prioritizing Aircraft Carriers over territories). If there are no valid landing zones, the Fighter(s) will crash into the ocean, and the event will be logged in the War Diary.

This brings the game closer to the Axis & Allies 1942 Second Edition rules-as-written: “Stranded defending fighters also land during this phase [non-combat move]. These are carrier fighters whose aircraft carrier has been destroyed in combat or fighter interceptors whose original territory is now under enemy control. These fighters are allowed movement of up to one space to find a friendly territory or carrier on which to land. If no landing space can be found, they are lost.”

[Panther]

Actually the rules for a refund have been clarified in the official FAQ:

Purchasing Units

Q. Can I purposely purchase more units than I can mobilize with the intent of deciding which

units I want to keep based on the outcome of battles I intend to fight?

A. No. You may only purchase as many units as you will have the ability to mobilize after making repairs

to any damaged industrial complexes. The rules for returning excess units are intended only for

inadvertent over-purchasing.

So buying more units than are placable is a violation of the rules and should be forbidden.
If the software prevented from overbuying an “inadvertent over-purchasing” would not be possible.

[JuliusBorisovBeamdog]

@Panther In that case, those were placable units, I just decided not to place them after the fighters died. And it meant I didn’t recruit 28 IPCs during that turn.

[Panther]

@JuliusBorisovBeamdog How that? You have no choice not to place the units you bought…

[JuliusBorisovBeamdog]

@Panther See the OP.

[Panther]

@JuliusBorisovBeamdog
If you refer to this:

What I did was to buy 2 ACs in Karelia so that 4 my fighters from Germany could get there after attacking the SZ next to Norway. However, during the combat, all 4 fighters were destroyed, this is why I didn’t buy the ACs.

Assuming that you mean “place” instead of “buy” in the last sentence the rule is that you have to place the carriers you bought regardless of how that battle ended. Or what am I missing?

[JuliusBorisovBeamdog]

Yes, this is what this thread tries to discuss. Getting your IPCs back if you don’t deploy.

[Panther]

Ok, I was motivated to add the clarification of the rules to this part of the discussion:

@aardvarkpepper said in Getting your IPCs back if you don't deploy:

Needing to deploy all units or losing them with no IPC refund isn’t quite how it works in 1942. If you purchase more units than you can place due to production limitations, excess units that cannot be placed can be refunded. So you could legitimately pull off that carrier non-placement thing under certain conditions - say Germany had 59 IPC, controlled ICs on Karelia, Germany, and Italy, bought 15 infantry and 1 carrier, then it wouldn’t be able to place one of the units and would get a refund per 1942 version board game rules. But the current 1942 Online implementation just gives a flat refund and allows players to not place purchased units, which isn’t correct and which can be exploited as mentioned.

What I wanted to express is that by the rules any overbuy is forbidden in any case.

[aardvarkpepper]

@Panther: That’s very interesting. I’d been using the FAQ dated September 3, 2014 at

http://www.wizards.com/AvalonHill/rules/AA1942_2ndEdition_FAQ.pdf

but apparently there’s a more recent version dated November 24, 2014 at

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/ah/AA_1942_2nd_Edition_FAQ.pdf

You are, of course, quite correct. The software should prevent overbuying, and players should have to mobilize all units purchased.

My statement, based on the old FAQ, was incorrect.

@JuliusBorisovBeamdog Players are not supposed to be able to voluntarily not place units then get a refund for any non-placed units.

[Panther]

@aardvarkpepper said in Getting your IPCs back if you don't deploy:

but apparently there’s a more recent version dated November 24, 2014 at
https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/ah/AA_1942_2nd_Edition_FAQ.pdf

Indeed, at that time that rule had been introduced to 1942 2nd ed., Europe/Pacific/Global 1940 2nd ed. and 1941.

[DoManMacgee]

I think the issue here is less the being able to place units you buy, and more the exploits that become possible by buying a unit you never intend to place.

For example, if I buy a CV on a UK turn, I can hypothetically fly a FTR from Moscow to attack a German Navy in the Baltic Sea, even if Karelia/Norway/Germany/Poland/Baltic States are all German-owned, because I can hypothetically land those FTRs in the SZ adjacent to the Baltic Sea and UK during NCM. However, as is, I can carry out this attack even if it’s a blatant suicide mission, because as soon as the FTRs are dead I am no longer obligated to place the CV I bought earlier, meaning I can save placing it for next turn, effectively giving UK 14 free IPCs towards their next naval purchase and denying Germany a chance to pounce on a vulnerable CV for free value.

EDIT: Thanks for the clarification @JuliusBorisovBeamdog. Glad to see you and the team are still working hard at making improvements. The game has come a long way since launch quality-wise and I’m sure everyone here appreciates the continued dedication.

EDIT #2: I guess what I’m saying is that the purchase system should be left as-written in the rules. Players should be punished for bad tactical decision making. Otherwise all games would just come down to a combination of luck, basic knowledge of the map being played, and which side the map being played is biased towards. It’d be more of an exercise in optimization than an actual game.