@timothy-gengarella In OOB, Netherlands would go German. With the Diplomacy expansion, they would go British. But most players put in restrictions that an attack by a major on a minor must have an actual attack of some sort to prevent it from being taken advantage of.
Netherlands joins the Axis
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If playing with the Netherlands Fights Back expansion, what happens if an Allied player, say the UK or France pays the IPP penalty and attacks the Netherlands?
Do they join the Axis? If so, how does that effect Japan and the DEI? Which Nation Player Controls the Netherlands? -
@GeneralHandGrenade @Rank-Carcass
I tag you guys in this because I’ve seen your videos and you guys seem to have a handle on things.
Thoughts?
Also keep up the good work. -
The Netherlands are on the Allies side. You’re not allowed to attack your allies even if your little sister is playing them and she picks her nose, hehe.
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@GeneralHandGrenade
Thanks. I didnt see that the Netherlands were an Allied Nation. I thought they acted as a Neutral Nation until they were Alignedxas per the normal Alignment. -
Not a fan of the “Netherlands Fights Back” expansion due to the war declaration changes it makes. In the case you have listed the Allies can declare on the Dutch for 10 IPP and the -8 to US income. German would align all of the Netherlands including the East Indies. If Netherlands was playing as a Minor nation ala China it would need to be shifted to the German play.
A further wrinkle caused by this expansion allows Japan to declare on the Dutch without bringing the UK in the game. Under the “Dutch Territories” special rule we have “When the Axis declares war on the Netherlands, place a British roundel on all Dutch territories”. This would lead Japan to be at war with the UK and the associated IPP increases (including a 2d12 bump to the US for declaring on a minor and the 5d12 for declaring on the UK). However, with this expansion we have this rule “The British player no longer takes over the Dutch colonies when the Netherlands is attacked.” (4.2 Income - Netherlands Fights Back). Without any mention of a British escalation.
The entire treatment of the Dutch is a bit problematic as in the basic game we have gems like this under the FEC peacetime income bonuses “Japanese declare war on the Netherlands (1st time only)”. This strongly implies the ability for Japan to declare war on the Netherlands multiple times without any provisions in the rules for multiple declarations.
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Again I say there is no way that the Allies can declare war on the Netherlands. They are a minor nation on the side of the Allies. You can’t declare war on a nation that is on your side. They will never join the Germans.
If you’re not playing the Netherlands at War expansion then you would place a British roundel on all of the remaining Dutch territories including the Home Country in Europe after Japan attacks and conquers at least 1 Dutch territory. That does not equate to a declaration of war by Japan against the Commonwealth. That puts the British in a bad situation because if they declare war against Japan then it negates the bonus rolls for them and the Americans. I have recommended a fix for this and I’m hoping they accept it.
I’m not sure why it says “1st time only” when referring to Japan declaring war on the Netherlands. Once a nation declares war on another they are at war with each other until the game is over. That must be a typo. We are working hard to eliminate typos in Version 3 of the rules. It could be that what they are referring to is that British get a bonus when an Axis nation declares war on the Netherlands, and that they would only get that bonus once and not for both the Germans and the Japanese declarations. A declaration by one is a declaration by both of them against the Netherlands. -
@GeneralHandGrenade said in Netherlands joins the Axis:
If you’re not playing the Netherlands at War expansion then you would place a British roundel on all of the remaining Dutch territories including the Home Country in Europe after Japan attacks and conquers at least 1 Dutch territory.
This does not seem to match up to the rule set as of 08/20/2019. Let’s move through a Japanese attack on Java. The Allies (UK and France) are not at war with Japan and the Dutch are neutral.
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Japan combat moves into the sea zone bordering Java declaring an amphibious assault and a naval combat against the Dutch ships in the sea zone. This is a declaration of war according to rule 8.1
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The UK enacts the “Dutch Territory” rule as the trigger is “When the axis declares war on the Netherlands” - UK reference sheet v 1.4 This will include Java. Immediacy of action supported by Table 8.1 - Consequences - Available Actions. This states income but outlines that nations may take actions based on declaration of war immediately. The US could close the Panama Canal based on Japans actions and this would occur prior to combat taking place.
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Japan completes its combat moves.
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Japan conducts its combats
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If Japan has taken any territories it places its roundel and adjusts its income accordingly. Rule 9.16
If Japan completes the land attack on Java it will declare war on the UK per rule 8.1 as Java has a British roundel on it and is now British territory. (“It is automatically assumed a nation is declaring war when it Attacks another player’s territory or forces”) The naval forces are still Dutch and that combat can complete without bringing the UK and Japan into a state of war.
I can not speak to the intentions of the rules but their mechanical execution is pretty clear. Japan can sink the Dutch navy but not take land from the Dutch without a declaration on Britain.
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You’re right about the phrasing of the V-2 rules. This is the phrasing in V-3 so far;
“When Axis or Comintern declares war on the Netherlands, Netherlands becomes Controlled by or Aligned to Great Britain. Great Britain receives income from Dutch territories once at war. It may distribute this income as it sees fit to itself, the FEC or ANZAC.”
As you can see with this clarification, the British would not be aligned to the Dutch until they were at war with the same major power. In your example that would be Japan. I believe that the weak penalties for the Japanese doing this almost guarantees an Axis victory and hope that this is fixed.
I can see why you interpreted the rule the way you did. Although, it would not have made a difference if you attacked the land or the ships because it would still take a declaration of war to attack the Dutch ships triggering the same result. -
Sorry to chime in a bit late, but had a couple thoughts here.
That’s an interesting reading of the rules, and one I had not fully considered, and I wonder if HBG did not as well when writing them. The rule reads (as in not with the expansion):
Dutch Territories: When the Axis declares war on the Netherlands, place a British roundel
on all Dutch territories. Britain receives all income from these once at war. The British player
may, when collecting income distribute the income from Dutch territories between Great
Britain, the Far East Command and the ANZAC as he sees fit.By that reading, just on it’s face, the UK, FEC, ANZAC do not automatically enter the war once the Netherlands is attacked. They all get increases, sure, but they do not automatically enter the war. So it’s a bit misleading to say the UK is missing out on all that money, when they might not be getting it right away anyways.
But I see what you’re saying. If you make the adjustment of placing British roundels on all Dutch territory immediately after war is declared, then that could be construed as war on the British.
My gut tells me that what HBG meant with this was that they are still Neutral Dutch, but are now British controlled until alignment can happen once the UK is also at war. Regardless, it’s another example of really needing to polish the rule set to be waaaaay more clear/less contradictory. But yeah, I agree with @GeneralHandGrenade that the interpretation is as he lays out. But again, I’d say very astute reading on your part for the technicality!
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The main reason I like the Netherlands Fights Back expansion is because it allows the Germans to hit the Netherlands in Europe without all that income going to the Commonwealth which puts the Japanese at a severe (and likely ahistorical) disadvantage in the Pacific.
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I agree with that. I actually never liked that all the DEI money went straight to the Commonwealth (assuming the attack on the Netherlands thrusts the UK into war right away, that is). This makes a lot more sense to me too.
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I pointed out the inconsistency in the phrasing if this rule to the designer writing the final draft of the rules. The phrasing has been changed to the Netherlands become British AFTER the combat phase in the first turn that they have been attacked. This means of course that you would want to attack with Japan first and then take out the capital with the Germans on the next turn to avoid giving the US 5D12 for Japan declaring war on the Commonwealth.
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