Jet Power – too powerful

[Imperious Leader]

yes lets do that.

My example was only to provide some example. It would not be the only jet considered like this for late war period.

[tekkyy]

by the way besides new combat values the ID immunity is also only for new units
I hope this is what mean

hopefully its not too many things to keep track of

[Imperious Leader]

Yes it is. Immunity is for only the new units your building as jet fighters and the free prototype.

[tekkyy]

actually for simplicity I wasnt adding free prototype thing yet

is it important?

[Imperious Leader]

I think its a bit of  trying to smooth over the feeling: “gee we got this new technology…but i cant use it until i buy it”

and this allows the player who got the tech to actually have one prototype…as they say to “wet his appetite for more”

Historically it could represent a small order of such items to see how they fair in combat and still be assumed under the costs of development.

Its also some halfway point of both arguments: either tech immediately changes all existing planes to jets…or you got tech and you have nothing until you buy those units from scratch…

getting one free prototype would be a gesture that something can be used on the same turn to “save the day” in perhaps one battle where you needed tech that turn rather than wait another turn for purchase.

[Bierwagen]

I say for simplicity sake wait and make them buy it.  Or move Tech Development Phase back up prior to Purchase Units so they can buy it right away.

Which unit do you allow them to convert, will be the next question asked.  Closest to homeland?  Closest to a factory?

I noticed that since the tech dice were free in AARHE noone was up for dumping money into it.

Just thinking out loud.

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

yes you get free dice, but you can accelerate the effort by spending IPC.

I think the prototype would be of your choosing…but just one. I don’t like the idea of having the tech sorted out so on the turn you get it , your buying all sorts of the same item. That type of thing leads to reckless play…kinda like an 18 year old getting winning the lottery… id rather allow for some temperament prevail where you at least model… Germany now had this new plane in the sky (represented by the prototype) and US player says " i guess we need to start research on this type of weapon"

Id rather not see " Poof ! Germany builds 10 Jet fighters on the same turn they develop the tech and turn the war around in one turn…" at least it models the idea that new weapons need different facilities to accommodate the technology.

Note this goes for A-bombs (free prototype), Rockets, Jet fighters, Jet bombers, Super subs, but not heavy tanks

[tekkyy]

well giving one free fighter is not anyway near the half way point
one jet fighter is insignificant to gameplay so I think not worth the trouble

Note this goes for A-bombs (free prototype), Rockets, Jet fighters, Jet bombers, Super subs, but not heavy tanks

well actually a-bomb is free but extremely limited
rockets are free, naturally
heavy tank, a new unit so no conversion
heavy artillery, a new unit so no conversion

and I guess you guys want advanced submarines to be built too

[Imperious Leader]

yes revised tech new units:

super subs
jet fighter
jet bomber

in each case they need to be built if successfully researched…. but perhaps at a discount?

[tekkyy]

we went over “discount” thing for jet fighters already
now with super submarines have you got a reason for them being cheaper?

[Imperious Leader]

i was thinking in general terms the super subs and all the buildable tech items may be cheaper to promote purchase and research in the first place….say just one IPC cheaper?

just thinking out loud

[tekkyy]

well if it doesnt feel right then we dig deeper and see what it is
so far I don’t see this proposed rule (super subs cost cheaper) being realistic

say, maybe it is ok to convert
you can’t easier refit old submarines to super submarines
(for starters the hull shape is quite different)
but I guess you can still model recycling steel or whatever

[Bierwagen]

Moin!

I hate to keep harping on this one, but this really is a show stopper.  Our recent games seems to be a race to see who can get Jets first.  Once the Jets are on the field the opposition rarely can do anything because they are so powerful.

We’ve learned that once Germany rolls Jets that the allies have to grind to a stop, dig in, and buy 3-5 dice per turn until they have acquired an equal footing.

Maybe this was the intent to make it a game breaker, that if you’d played long enough for Germany to get them then you need to stop playing.  However, our German player now buys tech starting at G1.

Like you pointed out we are only allowing one plane to be converted (now).  The rest he has to buy – but with the air combat rules it still seems too powerful.

Have you all not experienced this as well?

I haven’t done my research but I don’t think the ME-262 and early jets were any good at ground attack.  They were mostly Air Superiority FTRs and anti-bombers.

I’d recommend taking another look at attack values or make them more expensive.  Make it so you still have to diversify.  Jets to sweep the skies and planes for Close Air Support (CAS).

Thinking out loud.

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

Once the Jets are on the field the opposition rarely can do anything because they are so powerful.

We’ve learned that once Germany rolls Jets that the allies have to grind to a stop, dig in, and buy 3-5 dice per turn until they have acquired an equal footing.

You are playing with the rule that jet fighters need to be purchased right? These techs DO NOT MAGICALLY make your current board units all instantly jet fighters…. you need to buy them… are you playing it that way?

Maybe this was the intent to make it a game breaker, that if you’d played long enough for Germany to get them then you need to stop playing.  However, our German player now buys tech starting at G1.

Like you pointed out we are only allowing one plane to be converted (now).  The rest he has to buy – but with the air combat rules it still seems too powerful.

From what you said i understand that he is buying them and that ONE jet fighter is a game killer?  What aspect of its advantage is the thing thats killing the game?  Targeted dogfight capability?

Have you all not experienced this as well?

no not at all, usually the other side has built more air units to overwhelm the other sides qualitative advantage, but if Germany is the cash cow AND HAS jet fighters… then the game should have been called…

I guess first we should address the aspect of the capability first, then look at limitations on tech rolling for one tech.

I haven’t done my research but I don’t think the ME-262 and early jets were any good at ground attack.  They were mostly Air Superiority FTRs and anti-bombers.

I’d recommend taking another look at attack values or make them more expensive.  Make it so you still have to diversify.  Jets to sweep the skies and planes for Close Air Support (CAS).

Sure. But Hitler used them as Tactical Bombers and latter changed his mind to use them as interceptors. Again i need to hear from you about how exactly one German jet fighter changed the game  ( exaggerating BTW)

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

You are playing with the rule that jet fighters need to be purchased right? These techs DO NOT MAGICALLY make your current board units all instantly jet fighters…. you need to buy them… are you playing it that way?

Absolutely, we learned that lesson the hard way.  We do allow one prototype to be converted as we’ve discussed previously – the rest he has to buy.  However, he usually has 3-5 FTRs that he can sacrifice before the Jet goes down.

From what you said i understand that he is buying them and that ONE jet fighter is a game killer?  What aspect of its advantage is the thing thats killing the game?  Targeted dogfight capability?

It usually boils down to Russia trying to put the death blow on Germany and they just don’t have an air force they can throw away.  UK/US can’t seem to get a solid foothold on Europe and ends up loosing all it’s air force to jet superiority.

Germany is usually on the ropes, but US/UK or USSR can’t amass enough attack capability to finish Germany off because of the Air Superiority rules.  Once Germany shoots everything out of the air the jets are blasting armor at a 5 and armor is hitting on a 4 – all on non-infantry units if available.  It shuts down an attack quickly.

Allowing the jets to avoid ID is painful as well when you are trying to defend against them.

It just doesn’t seem right to make 1 technology so over-powering (e.g., it jumps from a 2 air attack value to a 4)

Again i need to hear from you about how exactly one German jet fighter changed the game  ( exaggerating BTW)

We have a hard time keeping Germany below 22 IPC.  So every turn he’s pumping out 1 jet, 3 INF, occasionally an ARM.

In the meantime Japan is usually pressuring Moscow.

This went on for a good 2 hours ~ 4 game turns. (n.b., only because Germany had insane bad rolls on his jets - 5’s & 6’s).

Finally wore me out, and I had to sue for an Armistice.

What we haven’t been allowing is US/UK/USSR to attack together, but I gleaned from Tekky’s recent response that only applies to “Soviet territories plus West Russia, Belorussia
and Ukraine.”  Though I don’t think I’ve ever been in position to assault Berlin with all 3 countries.

I don’t know.

I agree that Jets should be king of the skies.  I’ve learned that it’s a terrible mistake to attack without air support.  (n.b., 10IPC loss an attack is too much!)

• Maybe it needs 5 tech boxes instead of 4.
• Maybe Jets should cost more (e.g., gas and parts)
    – They hit better than a BB for 10 IPC!
• Maybe they should be king of the skies and not ground
    (e.g., only increase “Dogfight” values to 3/4.  Still killer)
    – This would requires a continued investment in normal FTRs for ARM bonus
    – Or a limited amount of jets on the board

We’ll try toying with a few of these next week and see if we can come up with something.

Thanks for the thinks!

Enjoy the day!

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

Imperious wrote:
From what you said i understand that he is buying them and that ONE jet fighter is a game killer?  What aspect of its advantage is the thing thats killing the game?  Targeted dogfight capability?

It usually boils down to Russia trying to put the death blow on Germany and they just don’t have an air force they can throw away.  UK/US can’t seem to get a solid foothold on Europe and ends up loosing all it’s air force to jet superiority.

OK so Germany is on the ropes? What is Germany doing spending her income on fighters when the Soviets are at the gates of Berlin? Would Germany then fall because they are wasting money on jets rather than infantry?

Germany is usually on the ropes, but US/UK or USSR can’t amass enough attack capability to finish Germany off because of the Air Superiority rules.  Once Germany shoots everything out of the air the jets are blasting armor at a 5 and armor is hitting on a 4 – all on non-infantry units if available.  It shuts down an attack quickly.

ok things that can be done:

1. cost of jets goes up
2. values of Jets go down
3. Jets lose targeted hit ability.
4. Reduce ability to build jets per turn because its experimental tech

Allowing the jets to avoid ID is painful as well when you are trying to defend against them.

I am afraid ID had no effect on them, they were too quick for guidance systems on primitive AA guns. The rule smust stand.

It just doesn’t seem right to make 1 technology so over-powering (e.g., it jumps from a 2 air attack value to a 4)

yes this could be fixed to 3

Quote
Again i need to hear from you about how exactly one German jet fighter changed the game  ( exaggerating BTW)

We have a hard time keeping Germany below 22 IPC.  So every turn he’s pumping out 1 jet, 3 INF, occasionally an ARM.

What turn in the game was this? where you playing 1939?

In the meantime Japan is usually pressuring Moscow.

This went on for a good 2 hours ~ 4 game turns. (n.b., only because Germany had insane bad rolls on his jets - 5’s & 6’s).

Ok compensation… by the way did the allies have any technology? Heavy bombers" where are the heavy bombers" Do you guys buy Bombers for SBR runs? that would devastate Germany

What we haven’t been allowing is US/UK/USSR to attack together, but I gleaned from Tekky’s recent response that only applies to “Soviet territories plus West Russia, Belorussia
and Ukraine.”  Though I don’t think I’ve ever been in position to assault Berlin with all 3 countries.

Well you need to get the Allies right up next to Germany and 1,2,3 them

• Maybe it needs 5 tech boxes instead of 4.
• Maybe Jets should cost more (e.g., gas and parts)
    – They hit better than a BB for 10 IPC!
• Maybe they should be king of the skies and not ground
    (e.g., only increase “Dogfight” values to 3/4.  Still killer)
    – This would requires a continued investment in normal FTRs for ARM bonus
    – Or a limited amount of jets on the board

yes all good ideas….ill look into them and get back to you…for now reduce them to air attacks at 3, but keep targeted attacks, make them 5 boxes, and keep the same price… so they are only better in dogfights and against land they attack like fighter-bombers… the jets are basically dogfight interceptors and light bombers…

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

Yes all good ideas….ill look into them and get back to you…for now reduce them to air attacks at 3, but keep targeted attacks, make them 5 boxes, and keep the same price… so they are only better in dogfights and against land they attack like fighter-bombers… the jets are basically dogfight interceptors and light bombers…

O.k. so I’ll try downgrading them from:

Cost  Move  Attack  Defend  Dogfight
      10      4        4        5        4/4

To:

Cost  Move  Attack  Defend  Dogfight
      10      4        3        2        3/4

Now that I see it in writing “Defend” looks a bit low, but I like it.  Jets will still be king of the skies which is where they belong – shooting down bombers at will.  Though I find people more willing to sacrifice bombers these days in order to keep the air battle going and not surrender Air Superiority to the opposition.

Jets will still allocate hits on other land units before Infantry and increases Tank’s attack by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis?

Might want to add “Fighters and jets” as well to:

@AARHE:

Air Supremacy
… [Fighter] increases Tank’s attack by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis.

Or I’ll end up arguing with my rule lawyers again ;-)

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

Jets will still allocate hits on other land units before Infantry and increases Tank’s attack by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis?

Might want to add “Fighters and jets” as well to:

“Air Supremacy
… [Fighter] increases Tank’s attack by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis.”

Yes they do its implied because they are still fighters but with upgraded engines.

[Bierwagen]

BTW IL:  I tried this last weekend – and it was anti-climatic. Might have tweaked them down too far.  I played Germany and spent IPCs on Tech up front to get a leg up from the start – however, the decision on whether to buy planes vs. jets became quite painful.

Lowering them to fighter-bomber status seemed to take a lot of steam out of them.  It wasn’t a really good playtest, but I remember thinking that maybe they should just be standard attack/defend values and just have their dogfight value, ID immunity, and selective targeting as the bonus.

I think the real value of jets is to gain air superiority so your armor can become the real offensive piece.

[Imperious Leader]

post exactly the new proposed values. Ill have a look.

BTW all your previous posts are answered by me editing your posts.