Overbuilding Transports with UK

[Romulus]

If Poll have any significance: 16 out of 20 players who woted here build extra transports with UK. 80%!!!

Extra transports are useful. They scare germany. Sie kommen! By Sea naturally! (With the extra transports)
Extra transports are cool. They can go to the bottom of the sea without reducing UK landing capabilities.
Extra transports shoot more. (They are extra so they make extra fire). UK extra transports are famous for shooting down unwary Luftwaffe pilot.
Extra transports are efficient. They get the infantry from the back of the army and throw them to the German on the front line.
Extra transports are funny painted. They raise the morale of the UK player looking as a big fleet.
Extra transports are the UK player best friend!
Extra transport rocks!
Long live to the Extra transports!

[Jennifer]

Actually, England will always lose because Germany has enough there to stop 4 American Transports, 4 British Transports and assorted air and naval support they may or may not have from winning.

Germany will only have to leave more defensive power in W. Europe to stop America from taking it.  However, why would you want to do that???  It’s West Europe, not Berlin or South Europe, so no real lose to Germany if it falls to America, especially considering the force that wins will be very minimal at best.

Meanwhile, you have almost assuredly destroyed enemy fighters and decimated both countries’ armies that attacked you, for a portion of your own army.  Oh sure, you’re size will be much smaller, but then again, BOTH of their sizes will be as well!

So, assuming a normal game, you have the following:

W. Europe defends with 20 infantry, 7 armor, 1 fighter, AA Gun

England attacks with 12 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Armor, 2 Fighters, Bomber, Battleship

Germany wins with 10 Infantry, 7 Armor, Fighter, AA Gun remaining

America attacks this with 8 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 5 Armor, 3 Fighters, Bomber, Battleship using all 8 of their transports from the 4 by 4 system they had

America wins with 1 armor, 2 fighters and a bomber.

Germany, has now pulled apart the transport system, it will take TWO turns to get that system up again plus England has depleted it’s Karelian stack to weaken the Germans enough to allow America the chance (67% chance) to win in W. Europe.  Germany’s out no land because 1 armor is not going to protect W. Europe for squat against a determined German, however, now there’s nothing left to attack it but British forces.  Germany should be in more then good enough position to defend against 6 transports of British guys, especially now that England has no air force left.

So what has the extra transports gotten the allies?

Germany down 105 IPC in Ground and Air Forces
England down 89 IPC in Ground and Air Forces
America down 66 IPC in Ground and Air Forces (not counting the tank that lives to defend another day)

And, America is completely out of the game for two full game turns while they set up the transport system again.

105 IPC for 155 IPC and a stronger strategic position on the board all because I didn’t waste my resources on extra transports and didn’t set myself up to win at all costs over a piece of land I could allow the allies to take for a solitary turn and reclaim before I needed to collect my taxes that year?  Sounds like an awesome deal to me!

[Jennifer]

BTW, I’ll normally have half my armor in W. Europe and half in Germany.  Reason being is I don’t want to put my armor into harms way anyway, but they make great defensive pieces.  Also, I might need some of my armor to attack Russia if they get too bold.  So you can see why a normal game for me, at least, is with 7 armor in W. Europe.  Most of my fighters will be with the infantry stacks in E. Europe or Berlin.  They can hit anything I could possibly need to from there, including SZ 4 (which is why I like fighters in E. Europe) so it’s not that I need the tanks for defensive punch in E. Europe.  Though, 1 or 2 may be present.)

Stacks of 20 infantry are common even in my opponents.  Especially at the point of the game where England would even HAVE 12 ground units available to transport without resulting in a complete obliteration of the entire English army in both W. Europe and the Karelian stack.  And we have to a lot enough time for America to get 8 transports and get at least 16 units somewhere (most likely closer to 30ish units) to attack W. Europe with.  Sooner if they for go hitting Africa, later if they have to clear Africa since that will deplete their forces.

[trihero]

So, assuming a normal game, you have the following:

W. Europe defends with 20 infantry, 7 armor, 1 fighter, AA Gun

England attacks with 12 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 2 Armor, 2 Fighters, Bomber, Battleship

Germany wins with 10 Infantry, 7 Armor, Fighter, AA Gun remaining

We need to stop talking about different things. You’re constantly scoping your game by round 15 or so, and we’re talking about round 3-5 when Germany simply doesn’t have the defenses to accomodate all territories.

[Jennifer]

I’m actually looking at games around round 7 which is when the allies are most likely set up with their transports and ground units and fighters/bombers.  Before then they are set up weakly or not at all.

[trihero]

Then your numbers are quite unrealistic, unless Germany has already retreated from E. Europe.

You also need to analyze things with a broader mind - both you and Switch like to exaggerate situations by saying that one side has to make a bad attack, i.e. oh Germany has to lose all its air to kill this navy or the Allies have to mess up their shuck in a bad trade. That’s not it at all. It’s the fact that you’re manipulating your opponent into a defensive position. You’re not going to make a stupid attack, but you’re forcing your opponent to defend with enough forces to make it a stupid attack, which means less forces elsewhere.

[Jennifer]

Not so unrealistic.

Buy turn 7 I have purchased roughly 91 infantry with Germany.  Even factoring in for trading, that’s plenty left to have 20 Infantry in E. Europe, 20 in Berlin and 20 in W. Europe.

[frood]

Yo Bean - what say we challenge Bonzo and Poke here to a team game. They think they’re the shiznit, I say they’re not.

[Jennifer]

BTW, that’s 7 rounds of 13 infantry, 39 IPC an amount attainable even in games where Germany is starting to lose.  Unless for some unknown circumstance like 100% allied accuracy every round comes into play, but we need to leave those numbers out of our theoretical discussions since the exceptions do not prove the rule.

[newpaintbrush]

I’m betting on Ender/Bean.

Now me, I knoes I’m the shiznit.  Not 'cos I’m “good” or anythin, just 'cos I say so.

(signed)

the shiznit
NPB

@Cmdr:

BTW, that’s 7 rounds of 13 infantry, 39 IPC an amount attainable even in games where Germany is starting to lose.  Unless for some unknown circumstance like 100% allied accuracy every round comes into play, but we need to leave those numbers out of our theoretical discussions since the exceptions do not prove the rule.

So, all inf buys.  That means that 1) Baltic fleet dead, 2) Allies have Africa, 3) Germany didn’t push on Russia on G1 heavily because it didn’t have 2 built tanks in Berlin to counter early Russian push.

I think 39 IPC a bit optimistic for a sustained income over the course of 7 rounds considering that Germany buys nothing but infantry.

[trihero]

Not so unrealistic.

Buy turn 7 I have purchased roughly 91 infantry with Germany.  Even factoring in for trading, that’s plenty left to have 20 Infantry in E. Europe, 20 in Berlin and 20 in W. Europe.

Again, unrealistic. Germany uses up 8-9 infantry per turn trading. That’s 56-63 infantry out of 91, which means you have 28-35 infantry leftover. That wouldn’t even be enough for 20 infantry in 2 territories, much less the 3 you describe. Germany is losing majorly somewhere if it’s to have 20 inf in W. Europe at round 7. Plus, how does Germany defend say round 3 if the Baltic is dead and there are 5-6 tran of stuff available to drop in 3 locations?

Yo Bean - what say we challenge Bonzo and Poke here to a team game. They think they’re the shiznit, I say they’re not.

Sup Ender sorry I got to start a game with Gamer first, and I have both limited internet access now and time. After Gamer’s game then I can play Ender’s game with Gamer and wtf am I talking about? =p

[Jennifer]

Wow, no wonder you’re figures are so far off!  You’re wasting infantry every round!!!

I, honestly, use up like 4 to 6 infantry a round trading territories.  So I build 13+ and use 4-6.  Even worst case of only getting 42 IPC a round on average (14 infantry) and using 6 a round to trade that’s still 7 rounds * 8 extra infantry = 56 infantry + the starting units I had left over from Round 1!

I’ll easily have 20 infantry in W. Europe.  I’ll probably have 20 in E. Europe and Germany as well, but E. Europe might be weaker since the Allies can’t be stupid enough to invade E. Europe when all my tanks, planes and 50%+ of my infantry can blow the hell out of them.

[trihero]

I, honestly, use up like 4 to 6 infantry a round trading territories.

Hmm maybe we need to play the same game. In the game I play there’s at least 1 inf in 3 border territories, with very commonly 2 and 3. That means if I’m super lucky I only have to use 6 inf (2 inf vs 1 inf in each territory), but the numbers very easily go up to 7-9 inf (2-3 in each territory).

I also agree with the new paint brush (or is it a new paint brush?) about the income levels. 39 income for 7 rounds is pretty optimistic, and like you said earlier, the exception doesn’t prove the rule. Africa is quickly overrun, Norway is gone, and so is W. Russia and no more trading in Karelia. That is down to 33 income by round 3-4.

[Jennifer]

39 Income over 7 rounds is pretty PESSIMISTIC.

I’m not counting any rounds of you having Africa in that.  It’s more probable that you are closer to +5 over start, so around 45 IPC at least for the first 4 of those 7 rounds, resulting in 15 infantry a round.

And I like to have a stack and flanking infantry.  That way I only have to trade two territories.  If I must trade 3, then it’s probable that I’m only using 6 infantry for the trade.  Why anyone would send 12 infantry or whatever it is you think you are using up every round to trade territories I have no idea.  It’s not cost effective in the least and it spreads you thin.

Maybe that’s why you think extra transports would win you the game?  Because you are too diversified and not spending wisely with Germany?

[Guest]

If Germany is building INF THAT heavilly, then you have lost the offensive against Russia and are trading much closer to the vest as Germany.  That means Russia poses a greater threat, and that Germany has to fight harder just to stay in the 30’s for income.

You cannot BOTH build all INF AND trade at the Archangel/WR/Caucuses frontier turn after turn as Germany.  Sorry, it just does NOT happen  unless MASSIVE dice fracks come into play early in the game (or unless the Allies are playing poorly).

[trihero]

Maybe that’s why you think extra transports would win you the game?  Because you are too diversified and not spending wisely with Germany?

No, not sure where you generated yet another strawman. I build almost purely inf just like you, except somehow we have different experiences. You somehow think you can make it with 2 inf per 3 territories as an average, when it’s much more common to see 2-3 enemy units occupying, which  means 3 inf per territory.

I’m not counting any rounds of you having Africa in that.  It’s more probable that you are closer to +5 over start, so around 45 IPC at least for the first 4 of those 7 rounds, resulting in 15 infantry a round.

Somehow you always manage to exaggerate things. What kind of KGF are the Allies running? Without any threat to their shipping since you conveniently didn’t reinforce the Baltic, there’s no reason that the Allies shouldn’t be in Algeria on round 1 and Norway on Round 2. Remember as well that Egypt is being counterattacked for the first 2 rounds, and W. Russia is permanently lost from R1. Where is 39 IPCs coming from past round 3-4? Where’s 45 coming from? I see at most 42, not 45….and that is solely on G1-G2. Germany starts at 40 IPCs and is only going downhill fast from perhaps 42 for the first 2 rounds due to trading Karelia/Egypt. By round 4 at the latest Karelia/Egypt are no longer traded, so we’re looking at 33 IPCs with Norway, Algeria, Libya, W. Russia gone. Next up is Ukraine and Belo.

You have me curious, what exactly is flanking infantry? How do you manage to trade only 2 territories?

Extra transports do exactly what I said they would do - not win the game, a strawman you generated, but force the Germans to dedicate early extra defense to 3 territories, which shortchanges them somewhere, whether on defense or against the Russians. Extra transports don’t suddenly become a threat by a late round 7, you have to think about them on UK3 or so.

[Jennifer]

If the enemy has 2 units defending I still attack with 2 infantry.  Odds of 1 infantry surviving when you have the following:

Attacker: 2 Inf, 2 Fig
Defender: 2 Inf

Is pretty high.

Anyway, yea, the allies are in Norway on round 1.

Germany’s in Egypt on Round 1.  Bonus Germany

Allies are in Libya on Round 2

Germany’s in T-J, IEA, FEQ, FWA, Congo and Kenya on Round 2 MAJOR bonus Germany

Allies are in Egypt on Round 3.

Germany’s back in Egypt on Round 3 MAJOR bonus Germany

Getting the idea?  Who needs the SZ 5 fleet???  It has no bearing on Africa!

Sure, you get Norway.  So?  I’m down 3 IPC for Norway, up 2 for Egypt, 1 for IEA, 1 for FEQ, 1 for FWA, 1 for Congo, 1 for Kenya and 1 for T-J and when it appears my fleet is toast, I send them to SZ 35 and take India for Germany too.

So yea, 40 on G1, 42-44 on G2, 45-48 on G3 with 42+ each round there after for at least 2 more rounds, probably 3 more rounds

Either you are the worst German player in history, or you are playing devil’s advocate, Bean.  Germany starts with 25 infantry.  you can expect to lose 6 of that, so you have 19.  Building 13-15 infantry a round for the first few rounds is a breeze.  12-14 infantry the next few rounds very doable if you don’t waste your resources.  10-12 a round by the fall of Moscow pretty standard in a KGF.  That means you can easily field 60+ infantry a round in Europe, and that’s while you are trading Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine with the British/Russians.

Unless you play with just the three allies vs Germany and don’t have Japan do anything.  Guess in THAT situation it would be a lot harder since Russia is at full strength for most of the game then.

And yes, Switch, I am trading Karelia, Belorussia and Ukraine while primarily infantry.  I don’t even consider tanks until I have 60 infantry not including garrisons.  Then I can start getting 4:1 Infantry:Tanks with Germany and start pushing to take Ukraine or Karelia for keeps and trade deeper into Moscow.

Who cares if the Russians get to collect for Ukraine and Belo so long as they are marching away from Evenki, Novosibirsk, Kazakh and Persia.  That just means Japan has all the more time to build up a huge stack and walk into Caucasus because the Russians are throwing away units into Ukraine instead of against Japan.

Hell, if you attack territories with 3 infantry defending with 4 infantry, I’m gunna make sure to put 3 infantry in!  I can easily sap your strength then because you’ll have 3 infantry I can attack with 2 infantry 3 fighters and STILL WIN MOST OF THE TIME!

For the record:

2 Infantry, 2 Fighters vs 2 Defending Infantry:

Attacker: 98% Win
Defender: 1.4% Win

Most likely result: Infantry, 2 Fighters remaining with over 70% chance.

2 Infantry, 3 Fighters vs 3 Defending Infantry:

Attacker: 97% Chance Win
Defender: 1.8% Chance Win

Most likely result: Infantry, 3 Fighters remaining with about 60% chance; 3 Fighters remaining with 70% chance

In either event, I have killed your defenders and not over extended myself in return, thereby preserving my forces until I am stacked up enough and then moving forward.

What does that leave?  England and America with barely enough forces to take E. Europe OR W. Europe and losing it on Germany’s next turn regardless.  I don’t care if England has 40 transports, let alone 6.  It’s just not a wise investment early in the game.

Now, if England is routinely taking W. Russia, Belorussia, E. Europe and collecting for Africa and Russia is keeping Japan bottled up, it’s a completely different story.  Now you have money to burn!

[trihero]

Anyway, yea, the allies are in Norway on round 1.

Germany’s in Egypt on Round 1.  Bonus Germany

Allies are in Libya on Round 2

Germany’s in T-J, IEA, FEQ, FWA, Congo and Kenya on Round 2 MAJOR bonus Germany

Allies are in Egypt on Round 3.

Germany’s back in Egypt on Round 3 MAJOR bonus Germany

Getting the idea?  Who needs the SZ 5 fleet???  It has no bearing on Africa!

I ask the same question I asked earlier, what kind of KGF are the Allies running? You should be able to counterattack Egypt on UK1 with 1 bomb 1 fig 3 inf. Germany isn’t expanding farther than Egypt usually.

Either you are the worst German player in history, or you are playing devil’s advocate, Bean.

Either/or fallacy, there’s more than 2 options =p

If the enemy has 2 units defending I still attack with 2 infantry.  Odds of 1 infantry surviving when you have the following:

Attacker: 2 Inf, 2 Fig
Defender: 2 Inf

Is pretty high.

Hmm but where do you station your aircraft? In order to have 2 fighters per 3 territories requires that they be closer than W. Europe. You can station 2 fig 1 bomb in W. Europe and hit Karelia with 2 figs and the bomb can go to Ukraine or Belo, but how about the other 3-4 figs? I like to station all figs in W. Europe because the serve the dual purpose of creating defense and threatening a poorly managed fleet. If I flew some fighters say to E. Europe, that would mean at least 2 inf to W. Europe for each fighter missing which means significantly less infantry to trade early on. What I’m saying is that it’s hard to send 2 planes to each Kar/Belo/Ukraine and still have them on defense in W. Europe.

Hell, if you attack territories with 3 infantry defending with 4 infantry, I’m gunna make sure to put 3 infantry in!  I can easily sap your strength then because you’ll have 3 infantry I can attack with 2 infantry 3 fighters and STILL WIN MOST OF THE TIME!

Err…please, another strawman. I didn’t say I’d always send one more inf than the defenders. I would send 3 inf + 2 fighters against 3 inf, isn’t that what the R1 Belorussia attack is all about? In fact I would send 2 inf + 2 fighters against 2 inf if the fighters were available, but to make them available means positioning outside of W. Europe, and each fighter outside of W. Europe means 2 infantry have to go there to compensate. That means 3-4 fighters out of position for Germany, which I don’t like.

[Jennifer]

I like to have 2 Fighters in W. Europe, 2 in Germany and 2 in E. Europe, but I can easily change that to 3 in Germany/W. Europe or, if I have too, 6 in W. Europe.  Point is, the fighters can easily shift to prevent the allies from winning with extra transports without having to tie up extra units.

BTW, the flankers would be if I had a major stack in Belorussia and 1 infantry in karelia and 1 in ukraine.  That’s flankers.  Someone (you I think) asked earlier.

Germany 1:

Egypt:

Infantry, Armor from S. Europe
2 Infantry, 2 Armor from Libya
Fighter from Balkans
Bomber from Germany
Fighter from Ukraine (if not killed by Russia)

Survivors: Infantry, 3 Armor, 2 Fighters, Bomber

(Assumes 8 IPC bid, which is pretty much my standard unless I want the axis.)

Counter Attacker:

2 Infantry from India
1 Infantry from Trans-Jordan
Fighter from SZ 35
Bomber from England

Survivors: England with Fighter, Bomber or Fighter solo (assuming fighter because your bomber would land in kill range.)

Counter:  2 Fighters, Bomber from Libya to your LZ for that damn bomber.

Result: Germany owns Africa, England’s forces depleted, loss of 50% of British Air Force.

More logical?  Egypt not countered.  England consolidates in India to stop Japan’s forward motions and lands in Algeria to be reinforced by America.  This, of course, requires 3 rounds to get to Egypt. 1 to get to Algeria, 1 to get to Libya, 1 to get to Egypt.

Meanwhile, Germany has reinforced and blitzed all of Africa without trouble or loss.

[trihero]

BTW, the flankers would be if I had a major stack in Belorussia and 1 infantry in karelia and 1 in ukraine.  That’s flankers.  Someone (you I think) asked earlier.

Well, I didn’t ask earlier but thanks for the explanation.

(Assumes 8 IPC bid, which is pretty much my standard unless I want the axis.)

Thanks for clarifying, I was assuming 7 or less bid. I suppose it’s different if you have an 8 bid.

Counter:  2 Fighters, Bomber from Libya to your LZ for that damn bomber.

You would most likely lose a fighter since there’s a defending fighter present, which may not work out for you. Plus if Ukraine was attacked, you will have 1 fighter in Libya, not 2.

Result: Germany owns Africa, England’s forces depleted, loss of 50% of British Air Force.

But how? The Allies can land in Algeria in Round 1, and 2 if necessary. Germany isn’t expanding in Africa until Round 3, which puts your IPC estimate in doubt. Plus there’s that Australian transport coming around east to contest/defend the southern tip. I don’t see the 45+ mark happening if the Allies are trying to do a KGF.