The Red Tigers

[Afrikakorps]

First of all the Axis player I will face likes to keep the USA and USSR out of the war as long as possible to build up his forces and destroy the forces he is already at war with (China, UK). I am already a big fan of Russia involving himself with the Chinese front by keeping the Siberian forces north and send a mechanized team to help out Yunnan. I think this might be an interesting gambit / strategy against J1 and J4.

However I just got an idea, as the Russian airplanes can reach Yunnan in 1 turn. Yunnan is next to India the most important zone on the Pacific board, if China can keep it early by making it Fortress Yunnan, Japan is in trouble as China become a big headache. Yes Japan can ignore China and go for the Siberian route or through India, but lets just assume that it is much easier for Japan to just deal with China while also dealing with Russia and the UK.

There is nothing you can do about Japan taking out Yunnan in J1, as the Russian fighter and tactical will not change the odds much against 3 Infantry, 1 Artilery, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical and 2 Bombers.

However you could surprise the Japanese player by going all in on Fortress Yunnan before J2. This will make taking Yunnan too costly for Japan and will either cripple Japan very early in the game or make China spiral out of control early in the game.

R1: build 3 fighters, move 1 tank + mech towards Yunnan, move the Leningrad fighter to Moscow
C1: retake Yunnan and reinforce with all your units + 4 infantry you build (now total of 10-12 infantry on Yunnan)
UK1: make unprovoked action, declaring war on Japan by reinforcing Yunnan with 2 infantry, 2 fighters, 1 tactical (now total of 12-14 infantry, 2 fighters, 1 tactical on Yunnan)
R2: move all aircraft + tank and mech to Yunnan (now total of 12-14 infantry, 1 mech. infantry, 1 tank, 2 tactical bombers, 7 fighters on Yunnan)

Japan has too few land troops available in J2, it might not have all its aircraft within range so soon because of the Russian 18 infantry stack is still there and can not handle Fortress Yunnan without losing most of its aircraft.

The Red Tigers (Russian Aircraft) can reinforce India when needed, or meet up with the large Russian stack north and wipe Japan out of the mainland. It is also fast enough to be back in the motherland Russia for the final battle, while in the meantime it gave Japan a lot of headaches!

For Russia this first turn investment in the Red Tigers means ofcourse 10 less infantry in R1. However lets look at it this way: if you can ensure Japan will not be able to reach Russia, you stopped the second front. Through all three possible routes, Siberia, China and India, those 5 fighters + 1 tactical will be of great value in addition to the infantry stacks. Russia is to Japan what German is to Russia, so why not abuse this? Those 10 infantry less will not make a difference against a determined Germany and at least you prevent yourself from being surrounded from all sides.

India has the support from the Red Tigers, there will need to be some calculation, but this might even be enough to stop a possible India crush from Japan?

Japan that loses the mainland has no chance of winning in the pacific, so is forced build up land forces or try go through Siberia or India, allowing the USA to focus on Germany.

[MEANWHILEINSEAZONE113]

How can Russia land in China while neutral?

[Afrikakorps]

@MEANWHILE:

How can Russia land in China while neutral?

They declared war on Japan in R1 by moving in 1 tank and 1 mech. infantry from Volgograd to Sikang.

[MEANWHILEINSEAZONE113]

@Afrikakorps:

@MEANWHILE:

How can Russia land in China while neutral?

They declared war on Japan in R1 by moving in 1 tank and 1 mech. infantry from Volgograd to Sikang.

Got it. In that case, Japan simply builds transports, moves back to the coast, and takes French IndoChina T1. T2, still ignoring Yunnan, Japan loads all transports and sends fleet+loaded transports to coast of FIC, taking units from Japan proper or the coast. The airforce also lands on FIC. For T2 Japan builds airbase+naval yard on FIC. T3, still ignoring Yunnan, Japan swings to Calcutta and the whole Yunnan gambit was an utter failure, even if the British used blockers since Japan will be there the turn after or after with the bombers it built T3 and the 10 factory on Calcutta will be bombed to the ground with no money to build.

In sum, your gambit can simply be ignored.

[larrymarx]

Let me throw down some numbers just for perspective.

Japan starts the game with:

11 fighters
8 tactical bombers
2 bombers

Your proposed force is:

12-14 infantry
1 mech
1 tank
7 fighters
2 tactical bombers

For this battle to be better than break even in TUV terms, Japan needs to bring 6-8 ground units depending on the number of infantry you have in your stack. There is a significant possibility that Japan will already have this force available on J2 (4 from Kiangsi and 4 from transports that send troops to Kwangsi).

I find it striking that an all-out Allied defense of Yunnan vs. an early Japanese thrust would be so evenly matched. Perhaps this was an intentional feature of the global 1940 setup?

In any case, I’m not so sure this is a good move. Let’s say that Japan “takes the bait” and crushes the stack on J2. They will lose half their air force, but they won’t really need it as much either now that China and UK pacific have the wind knocked out of them. Also, Russia has given up a turn of builds and then some considering the starting units that they have diverted, and America can’t rush to Calcutta’s aid.

As the Axis, I would immediately change my delayed war strategy and focus my efforts on Southern China and Calcutta over on the Pacific side and on Russia over in Europe. I would be happy with this outcome as the Axis.

[Afrikakorps]

@MEANWHILE:

@Afrikakorps:

@MEANWHILE:

How can Russia land in China while neutral?

They declared war on Japan in R1 by moving in 1 tank and 1 mech. infantry from Volgograd to Sikang.

Got it. In that case, Japan simply builds transports, moves back to the coast, and takes French IndoChina T1. T2, still ignoring Yunnan, Japan loads all transports and sends fleet+loaded transports to coast of FIC, taking units from Japan proper or the coast. The airforce also lands on FIC. For T2 Japan builds airbase+naval yard on FIC. T3, still ignoring Yunnan, Japan swings to Calcutta and the whole Yunnan gambit was an utter failure, even if the British used blockers since Japan will be there the turn after or after with the bombers it built T3 and the 10 factory on Calcutta will be bombed to the ground with no money to build.

In sum, your gambit can simply be ignored.�

No problem, actually India will be stronger than normal in this gambit, because it can get all its units back in time + build the normal infantry stack while this time it is reinforced by the Red Tigers. I don’t mind that China is ignored, I mind that I can make China spiral out of control very early.

UK1: Build 5 infantry, collect 26 IPC
UK2: Build 8 infantry, collect 10 IPC
UK3: Build 3 infantry, …

24 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 mech, infantry, 1 tank, 2 tactical bombers, 7 fighters, 3 AA guns, in India before J4. Can be more when Atlantic UK is also used as reinforcements.

[MEANWHILEINSEAZONE113]

Except your factory will be bombed out preventing those builds and the Russians planes won’t make a difference, Calcutta falls like a sack of bricks. The fact that you’re declaring war on Japan as the British also plays right into Japan’s hands since now they can wait the full term before going to war with USA. That means that all efforts can go against Calcutta with little negative impact.

[Afrikakorps]

@larrymarx:

Let me throw down some numbers just for perspective.

Japan starts the game with:

11 fighters
8 tactical bombers
2 bombers

Your proposed force is:

12-14 infantry
1 mech
1 tank
7 fighters
2 tactical bombers

For this battle to be better than break even in TUV terms, Japan needs to bring 6-8 ground units depending on the number of infantry you have in your stack. There is a significant possibility that Japan will already have this force available on J2 (4 from Kiangsi and 4 from transports that send troops to Kwangsi).

I find it striking that an all-out Allied defense of Yunnan vs. an early Japanese thrust would be so evenly matched. Perhaps this was an intentional feature of the global 1940 setup?

In any case, I’m not so sure this is a good move. Let’s say that Japan “takes the bait” and crushes the stack on J2. They will lose half their air force, but they won’t really need it as much either now that China and UK pacific have the wind knocked out of them. Also, Russia has given up a turn of builds and then some considering the starting units that they have diverted, and America can’t rush to Calcutta’s aid.

As the Axis, I would immediately change my delayed war strategy and focus my efforts on Southern China and Calcutta over on the Pacific side and on Russia over in Europe. I would be happy with this outcome as the Axis.

OK so somehow we want to do a feign as Russia to let Japan not have its full capacity available against Fortress Yunnan in J2. What about sending the Russian fighter + tactical to Timgusta while the 18 Siberian group in Buryatia. This will make the Japanese player think I will reinforce the 18 Infantry with my aircraft to advance from the North, hopefully keeping some of his aircraft north. Then in my R2 those aircraft reinforce Yunnan, while the 18 Infantry stack Amur.

Instead of Yunnan the Red Tigers can also reinforce north when Japan does indeed get too much land troops next to Yunnan to make a difference?

[larrymarx]

If I were the Japan player I would just go for Yunnan anyways. I think the only thing you can do to divert them is to actually stack Amur on R1. If the Japanese ignore that threat, you can actually punish them for it. If they crush Amur, they can’t crush Yunnan, especially if you keep reinforcing it.

[Afrikakorps]

@larrymarx:

If I were the Japan player I would just go for Yunnan anyways. I think the only thing you can do to divert them is to actually stack Amur on R1. If the Japanese ignore that threat, you can actually punish them for it. If they crush Amur, they can’t crush Yunnan, especially if you keep reinforcing it.

With the Siberians crushed in J1, do you think this will be worth giving Yunnan another turn (more reinforcements) and the Allied efforts to build Fortress Yunnan will be game changing for the Pacific side? After all now Japan can take Siberian countries and focus 100% on Yunnan.

In my case I am positive the surprise factor in our live game will make it work, especially since the Axis enemy will be inexperienced. With TripleA it might not against the professionals ofcourse.

[MEANWHILEINSEAZONE113]

I have to agree with what was written above as well. By investing so much Russian income into fighters, you’re really giving Russia away to Germany. Careful, you’re on a slippery slope. Especially if you say your opponent builds up first as Germany since you will have no infantry stack big enough to prevail over the German onslaught.

[larrymarx]

@Afrikakorps:

With the Siberians crushed in J1, do you think this will be worth giving Yunnan another turn (more reinforcements) and the Allied efforts to build Fortress Yunnan will be game changing for the Pacific side? After all now Japan can take Siberian countries and focus 100% on Yunnan.

Basically on the Pacific side you have to start out by sacrificing units in order to bleed the Japanese horde until it becomes manageable. The alternative, to continue retreating, doesn’t work because you give the Japanese what they want (territory, income) without any reduction in their force. They are just going to keep getting stronger and eventually they will pick one of your stacks and annihilate it on terms that are favorable to them. So yes, the idea of the dual Yunnan / Amur threat is consistent with good Allied play on that side of the board.

The problem, of course, is whether giving up those Russian units is good play on the Europe side. Unlike in the Pacific, you can’t really set up a “dual threat” that forces Germany to choose a path. By the time you can get the Western Allies into France, the Germans are already about to sack Moscow and you’re just too late to make a difference. You really have to make sure you can put up a solid Moscow defense as the Allies, and any strategy you propose that doesn’t involve the Russians building almost all infantry from turn one needs to compensate with some kind of plan to get more units over there eventually.

Ideas that the community have on the table now mostly involve massive Allied air support.

[Caesar-Seriona]

I never liked the idea of USSR going into China unless Japan is on the door step of USSR. Reason being is that US should be the one who puts pressure on Japan while everyone else just stalls Japan for US to get into place. I have seen USSR players before send units right into China from the get go and you’re allowing the western Axis to gain an easier advantage over USSR while at the same time, giving them the ease to hold of the allies in the west.

[Afrikakorps]

Oke, it will be too easy for Japan to ignore and focus on India + money islands without consequences while the USSR is greatly weakened on the atlantic side. So not a good idea.

[taamvan]

Trying to stack Yunnan is a GREAT idea, but doing it at the very beginning of the game, or regardless of the J-plan, isn’t.  If you leave Burma, (as UK), you cant get back to the base if needed.  All Japan has to do to send you running home is threaten to invade India, which was the standard plan anyways.

It might be good to put 2 stacks where he cant attack both, but he doesn’t have to attack anything, if he doesn’t want to.  The allies in the East are all divided and lack strking power units like armor and air.  Individually, they’re weak and defensive.  Together, they can hold territory, but what’s at stake here is a $6 bonus that you may have been able to get ahold of without all that help.

Yunnan < India < London
This is an order of operations.  You can’t hold Yunnan at the cost of india and you cant hold india at the cost of a major capital.  Since Moscow is directly threatened starting G5-7, a plan to move resources away from Moscow, or even NOT TOWARDS Moscow, can be fatal.  The UK has 2 fighters and ANZAC 3, the rest are too far away in time to get there.  They can only do 1 job per turn because of the distances required–all 5 moves are needed to position for the rescue.

[Ichabod]

What everyone says about how Japan can bring a ton of planes and kill whatever it wants in any one location is correct. However, the planes cannot be at all locations at all times. If Yunnan is stacked and Moscow simultaneously walks into Korea either location will probably be held for a round while the US is beefing up a huge Navy to threaten something somewhere. Japan is the easiest Axis country to overrun and trash.

On triplea live, in Kill Japan First strategies, more players are now just shoving everything and letting Japan kill a stack somewhere, but the other locations grow too strong and the allied stacks killed deplete the amount of ground (fodder) that Japan can produce and get in position on the board.

When I face those Allied players’ strategies, Germany is under pressure to get Moscow as soon as possible. Getting Moscow is not victory still when Japan is trashed by round 6.

For Japan, I’m forced to pick one location and target that area because they can’t do all by turn 5-6.

I’ll play a PBEM game as the Allies with anyone in this thread who commented against stacking Yunnan at any point because of how much air Japan can bring. I got that. The point is to try to get Japan to run out of ground. It doesn’t always work, but it does many games I’ve played.

I’ll play no-bid for Demonstration purposes. If you insist on me taking a bid of like 15-17 IPCs (small but not uncommon), I will use it against Japan. Most of the time I don’t use my bid with UK Europe anymore except an occasional sub to support the Taranto raid.

[Ichabod]

When I first started playing G40, I thought the Axis were ridiculously advantaged due to their starting air power.

My opinion has changed a lot.

I think the Kill Japan First strategies have been revolutionized significantly on triplea live. Once a player gets over the fact that Japan can easily kill ground stacks with minimal fodder due to their huge air force, plus you’re willing to counter attack ground (smartly, like picking off 1 or 2 inf, not 3+) with your air; you’ll see that eventually Japan gets overrun. Japan often runs out of fodder before China gets so strong that Japan has no chance of VC win.

This is with Russia sending a few mechs, using the 20 Siberian units effectively and the US coming strong and hard wherever makes the most sense.

[larrymarx]

@Ichabod:

Getting Moscow is not victory still when Japan is trashed by round 6.

Let’s say Germany and Italy overrun Moscow on turn 6, but the Allies are almost in control of the rest of Asia.

My thinking to this point has been that this scenario is unacceptable and that Moscow must be defended at all costs. What do you think? What are the chances of the Allies converting this board into a win?

[Caesar-Seriona]

@larrymarx:

@Ichabod:

Getting Moscow is not victory still when Japan is trashed by round 6.

Let’s say Germany and Italy overrun Moscow on turn 6, but the Allies are almost in control of the rest of Asia.

My thinking to this point has been that this scenario is unacceptable and that Moscow must be defended at all costs. What do you think? What are the chances of the Allies converting this board into a win?

Strangely enough with this situation, it would be interesting to see if China gets attacked or gets ignored.

[Ichabod]

@larrymarx:

@Ichabod:

Getting Moscow is not victory still when Japan is trashed by round 6.

Let’s say Germany and Italy overrun Moscow on turn 6, but the Allies are almost in control of the rest of Asia.

My thinking to this point has been that this scenario is unacceptable and that Moscow must be defended at all costs. What do you think? What are the chances of the Allies converting this board into a win?

Agreed. Only new players to G40 trying for a Kill Japan First will let Moscow fall on Round 6. UK Europe can keep Moscow alive for a lot longer.

It’s not acceptable to let Moscow fall on round 6 no matter what if the allies are going to win the game.