@P@nther:
So in my scenario the defending sub can submerge and avoid taking the hit ???
No. The decision to submerge is made in the “Press Attack or Retreat Step”.
This is before rolling the dice again.
Ah! Enlightenment. Many thanks :-)
Another German Navy Opener
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The SZ8 SUB cannot reach SZ5.
And if you sail out of SZ5 to SZ6 or 7 with the Baltic Fleet, you are now in range of the UK naval forces as well as air force…
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I think that a good choice may be merging in Sz 7, that is in range of British fleet, but also of German BB in Sz13. So if British attacks then German may have a possibility to counter-attack, with BB TRN and aircrafts. Moreover Sz 7 may not be reached by US Fleet in US1.
The problem is that after second round German fleet may be non-existent!
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And if you sail out of SZ5 to SZ6 or 7 with the Baltic Fleet, you are now in range of the UK naval forces as well as air force…
That’s just what you want, isn’t it? If the UK navy sticks around, they’ll be within striking range of all your airforce as well as the med bb/tran. Bringing in the navy also sets off the 3 sub’s attacks which wouldn’t be triggered normally if you just attacked with air…
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That’s just what you want, isn’t it? If the UK navy sticks around, they’ll be within striking range of all your airforce as well as the med bb/tran. Bringing in the navy also sets off the 3 sub’s attacks which wouldn’t be triggered normally if you just attacked with air…
Is what I have said two posts above… or not?
So, do you agree? May it be a useful way of employing the German Navy?
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Switch raises a valid point. If you join the SZ 8 submarine to the SZ 5 fleet you’d have to do it in SZ 7 (SZ 6 is just silly. Because it would allow the British to bring a transport and land bridge to Norway if you left it undefended, which is normal for Germany. SZ 7 forces England to forgo hitting Norway on UK 1 or Algeria for that matter, a blessing in itself.)
That means England has, in the battle:
2 Fighters
1 Bomber
1 Battleship
1 Transport (assumed)Germany has:
1 Transport
3 Submarines
1 Destroyer(note, the submarines are only hitting the transport and battleship, possibilities here!)
According to frood, you’d have a good chance at a fighter, transport and battleship for your kills with the loss of your fleet. You also have a good chance at nothing. But then, you have a good chance at nothing in SZ 5 alone too. (Though, as Germany I love it when England attacks the SZ 5 fleet with just airpower. England needs planes. Germany does not need submarines. Well, they can use them, but they don’t NEED them like England needs planes!)
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I didn’t mention it originally, but I did mean to say to merge in SZ7. So what if you’re in range of UK fleet? If they win, their fleet is sticking right next to W. Europe in range of all your airpower and med fleet.
How about this - right after the first round, submerge the 3 subs. Then use them as fodder to massacre the UK fleet!
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If they live, sure.
However, as England, an intelligent purchase would be Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer on UK 1 then. Of course, your BB and Trn are in range with 5 or 6 fighters and a bomber, but the British fleet (with Russian fodder) should be able to do enough damage, no?
You have good odds of sinking it all, but the defender still has good odds of getting that battleship left by itself with the American airforce to finish it off and now you have no fleet at all making Africa a simple clean up operation for a few marine detachments while England rebuilds.
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However, as England, an intelligent purchase would be Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer on UK 1 then. Of course, your BB and Trn are in range with 5 or 6 fighters and a bomber, but the British fleet (with Russian fodder) should be able to do enough damage, no?
If the UK purchases a destroyer, I will be smiling on the inside, while feigning nervousness. After all, what good is a destroyer for in the long run? I’d then strafe their fleet with 3 subs as fodder with 5 fighters + 1 bomber. On average, they will deal 3 hits to me (the 3 subs, yay, I maybe have to lose the bomber if they get a little lucky) and I’d deal 4 back. BB soaks up a hit, Russian sub gone, UK transport gone, and a destroyer or fighter? So the UK has 0-1 transports at the beginning of their second turn, and hasn’t built a single thing to help in the land situation, not pretty. (by the way this is assuming the US blocked the med navy from joining in)
Of course, I am talking about averages here, the battle could swing either way depending on dice. But I don’t think your proposed counter is efficient at all, simply and only because it involves buying a destroyer. How many other German openers, which cost zero naval IPCs, can force the UK to buy a destroyer? None I’d imagine :evil:
And remember, the UK is Germany’s worst nightmare. The US simply takes far too much time to get into action, it’s like round 5 before the 4x4 shuck shuck becomes stabilized. If I can force the UK to spend/waste a turn with something like destroyer/carrier, that’s simply amazing. That’s an extra turn that I am allowed to build 10+ inf and shore up all locations with no fear of UK reprisal.
Personally I think the answer is to let the German navy slip away…
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Note 1: UK can bring 2 TRN not 1 to the fight on UK1 (the WCan TRN can reach SZ7 also)
On with the analysis…
So the initial fight is:
UK: 2 TRN (fodder), 1 BB, 2 FIG, 1 BOM
Germany: 1 TRN, 3 SUB, 1 DSTThe odds on that fight are 97.5% for a UK win
Even with “Chicken Subs”, the odds are less than 1 in 10 that any German SUBs survive.But let’s say that a couple of them do…
USA strafes them with their BOM on USA1, probably sinking another one (now you are down to something like 1% chance of 1 German SUB alive)
And the Russian SUB comes in for a swipe on R2, or just joins the party…Add in a UK build of an AC and DST…
G2 Battle in SZ7 looks something like this…
1 SUB (AT MOST, but probably none)
5 FIGs (assume 1 FIG dead in Ukraine)
1 BOM
(I am blocking the SZ13 BB and TRN with 1 USA TRN that landed 2 units in Algeria)Allied Forces:
1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DST, 1 SUBAxis wins only 28.1% of the time; with the odds being that UK retains their capital ships, and Germany is missing most of their navy and their entire air force.
Meanwhile, Russia moves into Balkans, Belo, Ukriane and liberates Karelia…
After the SZ7 route of Germany, the US sails to SZ12 with multiple DSTs, an AC, TRNs, and FIGs, blocking the remnants of the Geran Navy from getting out of the Med, and setting up a solid shuck into North Africa.Net Result:
UK is slowed by 2 turns landing units in Europe or Africa.
Germany is out an Air Force for the entire game.I call that a pretty BAD move for the Axis.
In fact, barring horrid Allied play, I have yet to see a Channel Dash/Fleet Unification strat that was worth the cost to Germany.
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Who says I have to send all the German airforce in a suicide mission and lose them all? I have already gained plenty with not losing any airforce.
Let’s look at it this way:
According to Jen, UK loses a fig and a transport taking out the combined Baltic navy, on average. (attacking 3 sub 1 dest 1 tran with 1 bb 2 tran 2 fig 1 bomb)
Then, the UK build is an AC and a destroyer.
I say Axis gets an A+.
Loss of fig + tran = 18 IPCs
To build a destroyer = strategically bombing yourself for 12 IPCsIf I lost the sub-reinforced Baltic navy, I wouldn’t send the med navy with airforce. I’m not suicidal. I wouldn’t try to take out this:
Allied Forces:
1 BB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DST, 1 SUBWith 1 sub + airforce. There would be no point. The only time I would attack is if I had plenty of fodder and had a chance at nabbing transports. You seem to have badly misinterpreted my tactic as some sort of gambit to devastate the entire Allied shipping at cost of all the German airforce. I would never do that.
Here is what I thought everyone would see plainly:
At 0 IPCs of naval purchase, Germany has forced the UK to lose 1 fig, 1 tran, and build a destroyer in addition to an AC. Awesome! What other opener can you think of that costs 0 naval IPCs can do this?
The UK has wasted 12 IPCs on a destroyer which I’m not even going to attempt to attack. Go, UK!
Do you see the goal, the intent, is not to make some massive gambit at the cost of all airforce, nor is it to combine both fleets at all costs? Not at all. I think this is a greatly efficient gambit that forces the Allies to make some awkward moves. That is the point, screwing up their build with a destroyer and sacrificing a transport/fighter. That’s the gain right there, without having to throw away airforce. And it is done without a single IPC or awkward part on the Germans. The SZ8 sub nor the Baltic navy would normally do anything of significance, but to have them do this? Great! I say.
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That DST is not a complete waste. It is permanent defense for the UK TRN fleet, forever preventing Germany from sending the Luftwaffe against the Royal Navy.
Germany either attacks the Royal Navy on G2, or they surrender the seas.
Also, if you do NOT sail out of SZ5, then a DST purchase nullifies the little bit of strength you have in SZ5 from those SUBs when the UK finally does choose to take out that fleet.
12 IPC purchase by UK gains the UK:
IMMUNITY from Luftwaffe attacks for the remainder of the game
NULLIFYING the first strike power of the 2 SUBs in SZ5If it means that I lose ZERO TRNs for the rest of the game, hell yes I am buying the DST for UK. Spend 12 to keep how many 8’s alive without risk… GOOD trade for UK.
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At 0 IPCs of naval purchase, Germany has forced the UK to lose 1 fig, 1 tran, and build a destroyer in addition to an AC.
I wouldn’t sat that a UK buy of an A/C is a total ‘waste’.
Carriers add much range to the allied air force, especially in the atlantic theatre.
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I wouldn’t sat that a UK buy of an A/C is a total ‘waste’.
Ah but you see I never said the AC is a waste. I said the destroyer is a waste.
The AC should be enough to grant you immunity to Luftwaffe, especially when the US arrives with its own dest/tran. Since you already trashed the German navy and blocked the other part from participating why would you additionally need a destroyer? The Luftwaffe should already be peeing their pants to go into battle against any navy without naval fodder themselves. I’d be peeing my pants go send 5 fighters 1 bomber against 1 car 1 bb 1 sub 2 tran. Even if I got the 2 tran, I’d lose many more IPCs in gear. The UK should be immune to Luftwaffe without building a dest; building a dest is extraneous!
Even if all this opener does is force the UK to build a dest, that is a clear improvement over other 0 IPC naval builds. I cannot think of any other 0 IPC naval build that could cause the UK to panic themselves into sinking (literally :-P ) IPCs into a destroyer.
Germany either attacks the Royal Navy on G2, or they surrender the seas
Surrender the seas of course! That’s the only sane way to long term victory. But again, I’d be extremely happy to see the UK bombard themselves for 12 IPCs. It’s not like I can seriously entertain any notion of strafing tran, but if I can force the UK to think that I can, then they have wasted 12 IPCs. Maybe that is the “best” counter, maybe it’s too scary to let the Baltic slip into the Med without scrapping it.
A UK on turn 2 with no transports (and building a destroyer) is happy day for the Germans. Usually they’d be in Norway on UK2, but alas they can’t board anywhere! I could live with “counters” like that all day! :evil: And I’d probably just scrap the American navy of 2 tran 1 dest just to top things off with the med navy + airforce, meaning another turn before the Americans can get their shuck going. The Allies will get Africa if they want to, so it’s not like the Axis is losing much there…
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I played several games when 1 AC for US or UK was not enough……
Fleet protection is enough when G lose all planes if they attack.
And no, I don’t buy any AC without putting ftrs on them 8-) -
If they live, sure.
However, as England, an intelligent purchase would be Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer on UK 1 then.
Can you explain to me how DD is a better buy for protection than AC?
I believe AC+ftrs is the best choice, best value for money.
If DD’s are better I’m gonna buy them instead of AC’s.
Very few ppl buy DD’s, but maybe the majority is wrong? -
Fleet protection is enough IMO if they will lose 2 or more fighters on average in the first roll.
And yea, it is a good idea to buy 2 carriers with the US if the Germans are going nutty on navy.
Can you explain to me how DD is a better buy for protection than AC?
I don’t think Jen was saying that DD is a better buy. She would in fact purchase 2 carriers with the UK if it were possible immediately and have US fighters land on them. She was saying buy both an AC and then a destroyer with the leftover cash in order to dissuade a German counterattack.
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The opening is interesting but it should be compared with other options, to be evaluated.
Leaving the baltic fleet in Sz5, for example, is a better idea, IMHO.
If UK attacks with 2 Fig and 1 Bmb then German have a chance to kill at least one fig, that is also an inreresting gain.
In this way Sub in sz 8 goes to attack Sz13, and so the BB goes to attack the DD in Sz15, followed by the TRN for invading Egypt (if you have also a bid there) or TJ (just to seal the Suez canal).Moreover 1 DD for UK is not such a great gain for Germany. 1 DD for UK is an useful build, it adds defensive power to the fleet and lessens the danger from SUB attacks. Normally, in fact, I do not attack the Baltic fleet in UK1, postponing the attack to Uk2 or UK3.
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@ncscswitch:
In fact, barring horrid Allied play, I have yet to see a Channel Dash/Fleet Unification strat that was worth the cost to Germany.
What am I? Chopped liver? I’ve won multiple games using the Channel Dash. Of course I’ve modified it to only be used when Germany hasn’t lost any of it’s fighters on R1 because of my Low Luck results but I’ve still used it effectively with only 5 German fighters. I’ve also had to build a CV in the Med to make sure if anything is left in sz7 they can be protected from attack when they move to sz13 the following turn. Without the Med fleet for cover the Allies can just stack in sz8 and let the German fleet go. The UK can clear out any blocking forces in sz12 and take Algeria and the US can hit sz13 with 1 DD, 2 TP, all of the aircraft that moved toward the Atlantic on US1, and any aircraft that are in E Can or on a CV built in sz10. If you are going to make that move without building navy on G1 then your best bet would be to build at least 1 more fighter in case Germany loses everything in sz7 but the UK has taken more than average damage to still give yourself the option of attacking with only aircraft if it is to your advantage.
@ncscswitch:
So the initial fight is:
UK: 2 TRN (fodder), 1 BB, 2 FIG, 1 BOM
Germany: 1 TRN, 3 SUB, 1 DSTRight. Not exactly overwhelming odds. There are 2 things to remember here. First, as powerful as two 3’s and two 4’s look, the average number of hits is still only 2. Second, Germany has 5 defensive rolls there. Again, the average is only 2 hits, but 5 rolls, even at low numbers, is still not bad. 3 hits is not out of the question.
Even at 3 hits for both sides it doesn’t hurt Germany that much because now Germany can save 1 SS, 1 DD and make the UK gamble that if they push that attack the remaining German SS doesn’t sink the UK BB. And if they retreat, the US is stuck letting them survive or risk the bomber attacking with the DD covered by the SS to take a hit for it.
But lets assume average results. 2 hits for both sides. That leaves Germany with 3 submerged subs. The US can reasonably kill 1, but that leaves the UK with 1 CV, 1 BB, 1 DD, 2 fig, 1 TP and Germany with 2 SS in sz7 and now Russia has to gamble on attacking 2 SS just to get their sub in to reinforce the UK fleet. If they trade subs, I’m happy. If they all miss, I’m still happy. If Russia doesn’t attempt an attack there, I’m REALLY happy. Any one of those results leaves the UK staring at likely losing their starting fleet plus 1st round builds and Germany coming out of it with probably 1/3 or 1/2 of their airforce intact and no UK threat for 2 turns.
It might look bad for Germany to lose most of their aircraft until you realize that the UK would be losing all but their bomber and even the remaining German airforce will require that the UK build at least 1 more capital ship to protect their newly built TP’s. With UK’s income being reduced both in Africa and the Pacific they can hardly afford to have to rebuild their entire navy.
There are a few things that can go wrong for Germany there, but a lot more bad things can happen to the Allies in that situation. Germany can afford to lose their Baltic fleet if the rolls go against them but the UK can be in real trouble if the rolls even go average or favor Germany.
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Oh yeah. Welcome back Tri.
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The opening is interesting but it should be compared with other options, to be evaluated.
Leaving the baltic fleet in Sz5, for example, is a better idea, IMHO.
If UK attacks with 2 Fig and 1 Bmb then German have a chance to kill at least one fig, that is also an inreresting gain.
In this way Sub in sz 8 goes to attack Sz13, and so the BB goes to attack the DD in Sz15, followed by the TRN for invading Egypt (if you have also a bid there) or TJ (just to seal the Suez canal).Moreover 1 DD for UK is not such a great gain for Germany. 1 DD for UK is an useful build, it adds defensive power to the fleet and lessens the danger from SUB attacks. Normally, in fact, I do not attack the Baltic fleet in UK1, postponing the attack to Uk2 or UK3.
Yes, but, what happens when there are no subs left to defend against? Then you’ve basically got an almost useless piece on the board. The DD can’t bombard like the Battleship, it can’t hold fighters like a carrier, it can’t transport guys like a transport. It’s only really useful if the enemy is putting down subs like no tomorrow.
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