That’s a better idea, especially since Japan is usually somewhat stretched to the limits on their declaration of war on the US.
AAE Scenario: Europe 1939 (France, USA, Germany, Britain, USSR, Italy)
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And thus the benefit of NOT declaring war on the Soviet Union is demonstrated.
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I used the rules that you started your from once. I felt the UK was too powerful.
Im playing a rules set right now based partially off of these rules, and off of another set I found that eliminates IPCs and instead has resource chips that generate in one area and must be moved to a factory to be converted to units. I playtested my original ideas (with europe and japan) and now Im working out the kinks and converting things over to the resource system. Im also developing a new diplomacy system to improve on my older one.
Somebody help me out:
Why would Spain join the axis?
Why would Turkey join the axis?
If Saudi Arabia were to get involved, who would they fight for and why?
What made Bulgaria join the axis?
……Rumania?
…Hungary?The final thing Im working out kinks in is build-up for pre-entry. I need to find a good rate that italy / russia / US build up at before they start fightng. Im considering going extreme and having there be a build-up for india and australia too, but Im not sure what units they would start with and such. Any suggestions?
I shouldve probably made this another topic instead of posting here, hahaha.
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France can indeed be POWERFUL if the British and the French are ready to commit to its defense. This is especially true if the Germans don’t do all that they can to crush France on the first turn if it looks like the Allies are going this route. I don’t find this particularly ahistorical, as the British and French, if they had had the will, COULD have had larger and better-trained armies ready. The bocage would have become as devastating for the Germans as it was for the Americans in 1944.
The French army in 1940 was both bigger and better equipped than the German. The Char B1 tank was superior to the German panzers, and with Belgian and UK forces the Germans were significantly outnumbered.
Superior tactics and motivation accounts for the German victory, something which makes it very difficult to reproduce the war before 1941 in Axis and Allies terms. Usually this leads to designers handicapping France artificially to the extent that it cannot survive whatever it does, pretty much destroying the whole point of starting in 1939. We cannot create a game starting in '39 or '40 which both gives many alternative playouts while retaining something recognisable as World War II, unless it means railroading events to the extent of the contrived rules clauses you find in games such as World at War.
Do you allow the German’s to use “Blitzkreig” tactics but not the French, simply because the French hadn’t though of using them? -
From the game that I’m playing now with this scenario, Belgium and East france are taken within the first few turns, but france it’s self is a formadable force and is harder to take than it might seem.
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Superior tactics and motivation accounts for the German victory, something which makes it very difficult to reproduce the war before 1941 in Axis and Allies terms. Usually this leads to designers handicapping France artificially to the extent that it cannot survive whatever it does, pretty much destroying the whole point of starting in 1939.
Yeah its so hard.
And if you can’t kill France quick the game is sort of stuffed for Germany.Could work for
*more chopped up map, tactical level gameplay so you could model the situation and motivation
*adjust it to the time France and UK was already on the run, so it more about saving their forces so UK don’t get invaded immediatelyWe cannot create a game starting in '39 or '40 which both gives many alternative playouts while retaining something recognisable as World War II, unless it means railroading events to the extent of the contrived rules clauses you find in games such as World at War.
Finally got around to reading World at War the other day.
I felt it was a bunch of strict or inflexibile or artificial diplomacy.
I hope this scenario doesn’t have to get down to that.A clever design of victory conditions allowing SU to win the game without playing against Germany might the way.
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@ Cobert: Remember, the UK WAS powerful. Spain might have joined because they were Fascist, Turkey might have joined because of a chip on its shoulder from WWI, Saudi Arabia might have been forced to fight for the Allies, ALTHOUGH there were strong fascist sentiments in Iraq and other middle-eastern countries at that time… so it is kind of a toss-up. Can’t say for the other stuff.
@ Flashman: You really should try playing my scenario. I think it will restore faith in a flexible 1939 scenario. I have seen Germany take down the French both quickly and never at all, so it all depends on how much each power is willing to commit to the battle for France. And no, no player has Blitzkrieg rules. Everyone is given the benefit of the doubt, supposing that they might have all fought to the best of their abilities. Yes, this will lead to some historical innaccuracy, but then again I’ve always thought that so long as it doesn’t get out of hand, that was kind of the point of playing the game - to see how things might have gone differently.
@ Gewehr: You might want to try ignoring Eastern France and going straight for Paris on the first German turn. If you spent your pregame resources well, it is possible, and then all of the Vichy French will help you out as well. Just make sure that the UK can’t reinvade and use your airforce well, and it should be concievable.
@ tekkyy: If Germany hadn’t killed France quickly IRL then I believe it would have been bad news bears for Germany there too.
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France would of histrionically fallen on turn 3 or 4 if you are playing by the septermer 39 statrt dated/
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Well the way I did it was take belgium the first turn, then attkae from there to E France the 2nd…but in my version, france retreated from the magnot line and vichy to paris, making it hard to take and hold it on the next turn.
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Well the way I did it was take belgium the first turn, then attkae from there to E France the 2nd…but in my version, france retreated from the magnot line and vichy to paris, making it hard to take and hold it on the next turn.
they consolidated their forces which i pretty sure the french did not do int the real war.
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The way im doing it, with supply chips and no IPCs, the only supply chip for france is in vichy france, so If they plan to build any units they will definitely want to defend eastern france, and if italy has built up a bit then they might fall back to vichy. Either way, its not good to give up their only way to defend themselves.
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It seems to me that a “combined arms” rule would work well here. It all depends where Germany strikes first, East or West.
C.I. -
It seems that many of you are held up on the idea of keeping the game turns in line chronologically with the actual events of the war. I would like, therefore, to introduce you to a concept that doesn’t change my game at all, but has helped me accept some of the seemingly more difficult problems revolving around the progression of time. I think of it as “elastic time.” What this means is that basically, a turn might represent a variable span of time, depending on what is accomplished during it. The first turn of my game, for example, might represent nearly a whole year, while the third turn might represent possibly only a month or two. Now you may reject this concept, thinking that if the time span varies, then so would the IPC output. But as we all know, the IPC output of the game is turn-based instead of the continuous stream that it would have been in real life. Therefore, it is only an approximation to begin with, and we may allow ourselves to think of the relatively large outputs during the “short” turns as the result of a buildup of military industry, or the relatively low output during the “long” turns as the result of a somehow sluggish or exhausted economy.
Ultimately, I think of time in Axis and Allies in this way because in my view it is not so important to keep the game’s events running on a strict timeline. Yes, it is important to keep things roughly within a time constraint - I would not brook the idea of thinking of a single turn as only a day or as much as three years - but so long as I can see a progression of events within the gameplay that were either actually done at the time or feasible at the time (to the best of our knowledge), then I am happy.
You might look at it another way - simply put, that it is not so important how much time has elapsed, but whether the order of events has maintained its integrity.
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What about the idea of turn limit until the SU can attack the Axis? Are you telling me if the Soviet Union would have never attacked the Axis first? I find that unlikely considering the track record of SU. I think if they thought they had a clear advantage to defeat Germany at some point they would.
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Back in an hour or so…
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Mid 1944.The war in Europe has been drastically expanded. The Italian Navy was sent up into the cover of the frigid North Atlantic, a scout plane going to and from the Soviet Union and the UK spoted the massive fleet. It was recorded that they had enough transports and men to invade almost any spot on the map. Stalin, feeling desperate to get into the fight, receded his northern flank. Although so tempting, Bendito sailed into the Davis Strait, invading New Foundland, and pushing in all the way to Ontario and beond. The Canadians fell with little resictance. Truman reacted as fast as he could, pushing his industries and reqruitments to the max. Massive asaults have begun on both sides, but neither of them have weekened. With the arival of German infintry and fighters with more to come, it looks like it will not end any time soon. As for the British, there is still no sign of the Royal Navy, however the RAF has started to send Spitfires to DC to aid the US. The mighty country of the United Kingdom has been bombed, sunk, shot down, and demoralized in it’s own blood, how much longer they can last in check is unsure. The German Kriegsmarine has dominated the Oceon with it’s infamous U-Boats.
As for the main land Europe, it is all peacefull and quiet, more and more Faciest supplies are being sent to the Middle East and the Soviet borders. Stalin is getting more and more sucpisous of there actions, and has built up a masive line of defensive fortifacations in the Baltics, Western Ukraine, and the mountains of Iran. Although for some strange reason, there is little troops defending the citys Stalingrad and Mosscow, yet the communists seem confident…
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Stalin was already studying such a plan as a preemptive attack on the Reich prepared by Zhukov committed to Late July 41. I don’t think he would have pulled that and it was only a possibility to consider. I don’t think however that the Soviets would wait too long and in no event wait longer than early 1942 to launch their own attack. The final straw was the Ribbentrop and Molotov meeting of Dec 1940 where they discussed joint measures for the middle east and Molotov kept harping on Finland with Hitler and the Fuehrer had basically had enough of Soviet aims toward Scandinavia and Romania when they could agree on what to do about the middle east, so Hitler cast the die and Barbarossa was drawn up.
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I agree IL. In the 1939 scenerio there should be a time limit for Germany. Like the SU can attack in 1942 or 1943.
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The problem with elastic time is when you get into turn limits, like when the SU can declare war and such, and if you ahve weather effects for winter.
In the supply-token game im playing, the USSR gets a small amount of production before they start the war, which increases a little bit at the start of 41, and in 42 they can roll a die at the start of their turn and on a 1-2 they can declare war on Germany. Same witht he US, except their production only starts in 42 and they roll in 43.
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Mid 1944.The war in Europe has been drastically expanded. The Italian Navy was sent up into the cover of the frigid North Atlantic, a scout plane going to and from the Soviet Union and the UK spoted the massive fleet. It was recorded that they had enough transports and men to invade almost any spot on the map. Stalin, feeling desperate to get into the fight, receded his northern flank. Although so tempting, Bendito sailed into the Davis Strait, invading New Foundland, and pushing in all the way to Ontario and beond. The Canadians fell with little resictance. Truman reacted as fast as he could, pushing his industries and reqruitments to the max. Massive asaults have begun on both sides, but neither of them have weekened. With the arival of German infintry and fighters with more to come, it looks like it will not end any time soon. As for the British, there is still no sign of the Royal Navy, however the RAF has started to send Spitfires to DC to aid the US. The mighty country of the United Kingdom has been bombed, sunk, shot down, and demoralized in it’s own blood, how much longer they can last in check is unsure. The German Kriegsmarine has dominated the Oceon with it’s infamous U-Boats.
As for the main land Europe, it is all peacefull and quiet, more and more Faciest supplies are being sent to the Middle East and the Soviet borders. Stalin is getting more and more sucpisous of there actions, and has built up a masive line of defensive fortifacations in the Baltics, Western Ukraine, and the mountains of Iran. Although for some strange reason, there is little troops defending the citys Stalingrad and Mosscow, yet the communists seem confident…
I decided to edit my initial reply to this. I have just one question. How many IPCs are you giving the US player?
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The US has 34 IPC’s. Starts with 40 but the 6 IPC Convoy is captured.
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