Thank you that makes much more sense
Defending Spain as Axis
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Imagine you have Spain as the Axis, what would be the best to defend it against the Wallies (Western Allies)?
Pump it up with infantry, AAA and fighters or focus on the counter-attack from Southern France? -
Since the US can cross the atlantic in 1 turn and hit Spain, with as many as 6-7 strategic bombers and 4-8 transports (after US4-5, when the Axis needs to hold it), as well as everything stationed in Gibraltar (if they own it) there is no static defense of Spain. Pretty much anything you put there other than a megastack with fighters can be easily destroyed.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense to attack Spain as the Axis preemptively since you also need to attack Sweden and Turkey on the same turn. If this is your game plan, to defeat the neutrals, then Turkey opens far more options.
Its way better to make the Allies consider violating this neutrality, since that costs them resources, time, the control of the south American neutrals, and leaves the Axis with a bunch of minor neutrals to grab like Afghanistan, Switzerland, Saudi, Sweden etc.
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If you are playing against an Allied player who thinks Spain is of help to the Allies and is willing to violate neutrality to do it, your best defense against this is stationing those troops that would “defend Spain” to instead take advantage of Sweden and Turkey (and, if possible, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan) if the Allies do anger the true neutrals. Knowing that they have to take care of Turkey and Sweden the same turn they attack Spain should slow them down considerably.
Marsh
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I understand having to defend Spain is not optimal but in the case you should have to do it (and can take Turkey, Sweden etc.) how would you do it? USA can indeed invade it in a single turn so my guess is the focus on counter-attack. For example mass bombers and mech.infantry from Germany and Italy. Or are there better ways? Should you instead focus on Subs and Bombers to kill off the USA fleets while you stack France with Infantry and Artillery + AAA?
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Generally counter attack on ground but if you can sink their fleet by foregoing that attack you should probably do so.
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Oke something is boiling in my head. The problem with Spain being Axis is that it allows the Wallies to invade Europe directly from the USA, while they normally first have to take Gibraltar (or Morocco for Africa).
So focusing on only destroying the enemy fleet is not enough anymore, as the Allied Land Forces will then liberate France. By focusing on the Land Forces you give the Allied fleet many options. It seems impossible to effectively defend Spain as the Axis, because when you build subs they build more land units, or when you build more ground forces their fleet is untouchable.
It is clear you will always should go for the counter-attack as the Axis in this case, never as the defender. Not just because they can invade in one turn, but they can can-open with USA and UK both being close behind each other.
In order to provide overwhelming force at a specific point we already have an Axis strategy: The Dark Skies, massive bombers. But bombers need to land somewhere. The Wallies can now take Portugal, Spain, Gibraltar and Morocco all in 1 turn, leaving you without safe landing spot and even after a victorious annihilation of Allied fleet their ground force can wreak havoc on the Bomber fleet.
However you have on big advantage as the Axis: Italy and Germany can both attack before the Wallies can react again. Having Italy attacking the USA forces and kill them off with Germany sounds nice, but will likely kill off the fodder with heavy losses for Italy and still a bloody battle for Germany. Also it is impossible Italy can match the economy of the USA or build big amounts of bombers and fleet.
Therefore I advocate for giving them both a role. Germany as the counter-attacker for the Allied fleets, Italy as the counter-attacker for the Allied ground forces. Germany can successfully build up enough bombers and subs to provide a decent counter-force so the USA will need to build up a huge fleet in the Atlantic (leaving Japan reign the Pacific) while Italy can handle those 10-12 land units (50% = Infantry) with their medium income (+/- 30 IPC).
Also, the more different countries the Wallies take, their forces will be more divided. Italy will just needs a ground force of lets say 4 Artillery and 6 Mech, Infantry (to allow them to relocate if Wallies give up Atlantic) with 4-6 planes to destroy the Allied Ground Forces in Spain while the Germans can then take back Gibraltar/Portugal with just 3 Tanks and 3 Mech. Infantry. Germany is able to have around 10-20 Bombers and 6-8 Subs to destroy the Allied fleet and land safely in Southern France or Normandy. Yes, when the Allies land in Morocco you can’t attack them, but you keep them out of Europe.
When Spain etc. is taken, just move your Axis ground forces back to France for the next counter-attack.
This is just an 40 IPC (4 Artillery, 6 Mech. Infantry) investment from Italy and 66 IPC (6 Subs, 3 Tanks, 3 Mech. Infantry) investment from Germany, very possible without neglecting building forces for Russia. The airforces for both Italy and Germany should already be available as you can use them against Russia / UK.
Also, you just have to make sure there are 4 Italian Artillery already in Southern France, you can build the 6 Mech. Infantry in Northern Italy just the turn before you think the Wallies will invade (24 IPC in T3/4 is very possible) while Germany only needs 3 Mech. Infantry in Normandy and can build the 3 Tanks (18 IPC) just the turn before you think the Allies will invade. This allows you to last-minute and cheaply buy your defence of Europe against the Wallies and before that can just focus on Russia.
What do you guys think?
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Ok, so you want to attack the 3 most important neutrals as axis at roughly the same time early in the game for strategic/econ purposes, maintain pressure on Russia, and keep the Anglo’s off your newly acquired territories. Pretty big task lol
- What do you want the UK to do on the first couple turns?
- When do you want to bring the US into the war?
- You want to set-up and do Barbarossa to keep things looking normal and get to Moscow (axis goal).
- Should you set-up to hit the neutrals G2, or G3?
4a) Take Turkey to give the axis access to the Middle East and Southern Russia (income/strategic value).
4b) Hit Sweden for more income (easy enough), and probably Switz so the allies don’t ever get 2 free inf.
4c) Take Spain and set-up some kind of def/counter attack (or naval attack), because this is where you are going to be most vulnerable.
1 (UK) - You want the UK to build mostly inf UK1 (no IC in Egypt), so maybe buy 1 ship G1 to lightly threaten Sea Lion, or save most of your income? Sounds crazy, but you probably want the UK to do Taronto so you can kill the Med fleet leaving the UK fewer resources at their disposal to threaten Spain and Turkey.
2 (USA) - Have two choices, both have pro’s and con’s.
a) Leave USA out of the war until they come in on their own and cant preform attacks until US4 (may even entice the UK to attack Japan so the UK tie’s up more resources in the Pac still leaving the US out in the cold?) This will give the Euro axis some time, but the allies will be much stronger when they do come over and could build mostly Europe from the startb) Hit US navy hard G1/J1. G1 attack sz101 w/German sub to try and kill cruiser/tpt. J1 hit both the Phil (fleet and island), and destroy US Hawaiian fleet (making sure the main Japanese fleet at Wake is safe from counter attack). Also hitting Britt BB etc… again leaving UK w/fewer resources. This sounds strange bringing the US into the war on the first turn when planning for an axis neutral invasion, but the US will be hard pressed to build in the Atlantic because of Japanese aggression. If they build Pac for the first couple turns in response, then you won’t have US ships sitting in sz101 able to hit Spain for a few turns (easier to def for the short term anyway).
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I’m assuming you will still set-up and invade Russia G2 (or G3) because you don’t want to tip off the allies, and still need to take Moscow.
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When to attack the neutrals G2/G3 or It2? Depends on if you have the use of the German air force on G2, and the Luftwaffe will probably be needed to take out the UK Med fleet G2 (more risk to your mechanized units vs those inf stacks w/o air power). Also who takes Turkey or Spain and when? The Italians could take Greece It1, and be ready to invade Turkey It2 (after the Anglo’s take their 2nd turn) and Germany moves in reinforcements G3. On the other hand Italy could take S France It1, and be ready to invade Spain It2 and the Germans could land some ground/air on Spain G3. In this case the Germans activate the Bulgarians G1, takes Greece G2, and invades Turkey G3 (hides intent). Either way I think Italy takes one, and the Germans reinforce it, then and invades the other (along w/Sweden of course). This allows the axis to basically go back to back and disguise it somewhat. Plus if the Germans hit the neutrals G2, the Americans would surly build Europe on US2.
As you described one of the main problem is that if you take Spain you will have yet another coastal territory to defend, and stacking it isn’t really a good option. Setting up a counter attack from Normandy or S France is a risk because again your units are on the coast and the allies could probably hit either of those territories and kill off your units by sea from Gibraltar. Even setting up mechanized units in Paris could be problematic because the allies could cut them off by taking Normandy and S France. Attacking the combined allied fleet would also be costly, and if it fails the axis are doomed if they lose the bulk of their air power.
I’m not advocating that the axis invading the neutrals early is a good strat, but if I were to attempt it think I would try to take out as much US/UK fleet in the first turn as possible (and turn 2), and try to disguise it best I can. Get the US building in the Pac theater the first couple turns would be key, to keep them out of Europe till like US5?. If they have to start from scratch on the Euro side on say US3 (after you take Spain etc…) then you could defend Spain for a couple turns before withdrawing forcing the US build more before coming over (either more ships, or more ground). Put some pressure on the UK so she builds mostly inf on the first turn, and make sure the UK Med fleet can’t interfere or be used to re-take my prizes (on the bottom of the Med would be the best place IMO). I think I would have Italy take either Spain or Turkey on It2 (Germany reinforces G3), then have Germany take the rest on G3. Need to watch what Russia has in the south because you don’t want them to be in position to counter attack your units in Turkey. Don’t think you can afford to delay Barbarossa past G3 though. Japan should also be ready to kill some Mongolians on J3 if they haven’t already activated them (breaking the NAP and turning them Russian).
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The real issue with violating Spain as the US is the fact that all these neutrals in pro axis status that Germany and Italy can easily grab will more than likely be used against USSR so if the US lands in Spain, I would talk with USSR before doing it. Personally, my US plan is pulling Operation Torch and/or Overlord. I always make sure Africa is secured before anything is attempted in Euro. But that’s me, I never saw invading Spain as the US as a logical choice.
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@Caesar:
The real issue with violating Spain as the US is the fact that all these neutrals in pro axis status that Germany and Italy can easily grab will more than likely be used against USSR so if the US lands in Spain, I would talk with USSR before doing it. Personally, my US plan is pulling Operation Torch and/or Overlord. I always make sure Africa is secured before anything is attempted in Euro. But that’s me, I never saw invading Spain as the US as a logical choice.
?
Read the original post again, this is about the axis doing a neutral crush (not the USA).
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Germany can hit SZ91 (and SZ92, SZ104) from W Germany and land back on France with Strategic Bombers.
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@WILD:
@Caesar:
The real issue with violating Spain as the US is the fact that all these neutrals in pro axis status that Germany and Italy can easily grab will more than likely be used against USSR so if the US lands in Spain, I would talk with USSR before doing it. Personally, my US plan is pulling Operation Torch and/or Overlord. I always make sure Africa is secured before anything is attempted in Euro. But that’s me, I never saw invading Spain as the US as a logical choice.
?
Read the original post again, this is about the axis doing a neutral crush (not the USA).
It’s somewhat relevant as the Axis, you will draw in the allies to take over neutrals. Spain being the most useful to the Allies.
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@WILD:
Read the original post again, this is about the axis doing a neutral crush (not the USA).
Pretty sure the OP was silent on who converted the Neutrals, which is more commonly done by the Allies.
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Germany can hit SZ91 (and SZ92, SZ104) from W Germany and land back on France with Strategic Bombers.
You are right! I was still having Spain as neutral in my head for movement. I do indeed not mind if the Allies or Axis violated neutrality, just how you could best defend as Axis in the case you should have to do it.
Actually the more I think about it I come to see invading spain as a trap for the Allies, as you can counter-attack on the ground (so even when Allied fleet is superior you van kill their invasion force) and it leaves Italy/Africa without pressure. For USA Spain might look as a big fish able to build a minor factory but if you prepare well enough you could always take it back with Axis using a minor investment/preparation.
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That also depends on how Italy plays too as I personally usually leave Southern France for Italy to boost its production and having both Italian and German Factories next to Spain does a good job of scaring anyone from invading Spain.
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@WILD:
Ok, so you want to attack the 3 most important neutrals as axis at roughly the same time early in the game for strategic/econ purposes, maintain pressure on Russia, and keep the Anglo’s off your newly acquired territories. Pretty big task lol
- What do you want the UK to do on the first couple turns?
- When do you want to bring the US into the war?
- You want to set-up and do Barbarossa to keep things looking normal and get to Moscow (axis goal).
- Should you set-up to hit the neutrals G2, or G3?
4a) Take Turkey to give the axis access to the Middle East and Southern Russia (income/strategic value).
4b) Hit Sweden for more income (easy enough), and probably Switz so the allies don’t ever get 2 free inf.
4c) Take Spain and set-up some kind of def/counter attack (or naval attack), because this is where you are going to be most vulnerable.
1 (UK) - You want the UK to build mostly inf UK1 (no IC in Egypt), so maybe buy 1 ship G1 to lightly threaten Sea Lion, or save most of your income? Sounds crazy, but you probably want the UK to do Taronto so you can kill the Med fleet leaving the UK fewer resources at their disposal to threaten Spain and Turkey.
2 (USA) - Have two choices, both have pro’s and con’s.
a) Leave USA out of the war until they come in on their own and cant preform attacks until US4 (may even entice the UK to attack Japan so the UK tie’s up more resources in the Pac still leaving the US out in the cold?) This will give the Euro axis some time, but the allies will be much stronger when they do come over and could build mostly Europe from the startb) Hit US navy hard G1/J1. G1 attack sz101 w/German sub to try and kill cruiser/tpt. J1 hit both the Phil (fleet and island), and destroy US Hawaiian fleet (making sure the main Japanese fleet at Wake is safe from counter attack). Also hitting Britt BB etc… again leaving UK w/fewer resources. This sounds strange bringing the US into the war on the first turn when planning for an axis neutral invasion, but the US will be hard pressed to build in the Atlantic because of Japanese aggression. If they build Pac for the first couple turns in response, then you won’t have US ships sitting in sz101 able to hit Spain for a few turns (easier to def for the short term anyway).
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I’m assuming you will still set-up and invade Russia G2 (or G3) because you don’t want to tip off the allies, and still need to take Moscow.
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When to attack the neutrals G2/G3 or It2? Depends on if you have the use of the German air force on G2, and the Luftwaffe will probably be needed to take out the UK Med fleet G2 (more risk to your mechanized units vs those inf stacks w/o air power). Also who takes Turkey or Spain and when? The Italians could take Greece It1, and be ready to invade Turkey It2 (after the Anglo’s take their 2nd turn) and Germany moves in reinforcements G3. On the other hand Italy could take S France It1, and be ready to invade Spain It2 and the Germans could land some ground/air on Spain G3. In this case the Germans activate the Bulgarians G1, takes Greece G2, and invades Turkey G3 (hides intent). Either way I think Italy takes one, and the Germans reinforce it, then and invades the other (along w/Sweden of course). This allows the axis to basically go back to back and disguise it somewhat. Plus if the Germans hit the neutrals G2, the Americans would surly build Europe on US2.
As you described one of the main problem is that if you take Spain you will have yet another coastal territory to defend, and stacking it isn’t really a good option. Setting up a counter attack from Normandy or S France is a risk because again your units are on the coast and the allies could probably hit either of those territories and kill off your units by sea from Gibraltar. Even setting up mechanized units in Paris could be problematic because the allies could cut them off by taking Normandy and S France. Attacking the combined allied fleet would also be costly, and if it fails the axis are doomed if they lose the bulk of their air power.
I’m not advocating that the axis invading the neutrals early is a good strat, but if I were to attempt it think I would try to take out as much US/UK fleet in the first turn as possible (and turn 2), and try to disguise it best I can. Get the US building in the Pac theater the first couple turns would be key, to keep them out of Europe till like US5?. If they have to start from scratch on the Euro side on say US3 (after you take Spain etc…) then you could defend Spain for a couple turns before withdrawing forcing the US build more before coming over (either more ships, or more ground). Put some pressure on the UK so she builds mostly inf on the first turn, and make sure the UK Med fleet can’t interfere or be used to re-take my prizes (on the bottom of the Med would be the best place IMO). I think I would have Italy take either Spain or Turkey on It2 (Germany reinforces G3), then have Germany take the rest on G3. Need to watch what Russia has in the south because you don’t want them to be in position to counter attack your units in Turkey. Don’t think you can afford to delay Barbarossa past G3 though. Japan should also be ready to kill some Mongolians on J3 if they haven’t already activated them (breaking the NAP and turning them Russian).
Look at my Afrika Korps strategy where I answer all your question!
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