Went to hang with the family, it seems i missed a lot of thought provoking conversation.
It seems like everyone is starting to seriously consider moving the UK fleet to the med and going KGF. Odds for the UK in the Indian Ocean are really bad anyway you look at it. At least in the med you can guarantee UK keeps Africa. Isn’t that better than slightly denting the Japanese fleet on a kamikaze run?
Yea you really have to decide to either go all Atlantic, or all Pacific with the US. You try to do a little of both and it just doesn’t work.
I have never seen a J2 conquer of India so far on any of my games and I don’t believe it to be something possible, unless both SZ37 and and the transport on SZ61 are intact.
Otherwise for a J2 you’ll have a max of you’ll have 7 ground units, plus 7 planes plus the bombardment but that just puts severe limits on Japan’s ability to hit anything else on J1. And the UK should have something like 9 ground units, plus 2/3 fighters, plus whatever help the Russians/US can spare and from a quick glance the odds should favor the defenders, plus if Japan lose there’s no units for a follow up attack.
So im running the numbers here after the last game i just played as allies. If i try to take out the Japanese units in SZ37 i will have 13 attack + first round sub attack that hits 33% of the time VS 14 defense. It feels like if i don’t hit with the sub on the first round of combat I’m screwed. Which is what happened to me last game when i played allied. I ended up retreating with 1 CV, 1 CA, and 2 TRN with 2 INF from Australia back to SZ35, dropping the INF in India.
According to the rules you can’t during non-combat offload units that were loaded during combat, so you couldn’t have dropped them on India.
Good call, now my 2INF die on the transport on J2. I’m just going to call the game. At this point there is virutally no way i can win in the pacific knowing what i know now about Japanese naval defense.
All i was able to destroy was 2 fighters, which japan easily replaced with the 2 fighters from the mainland on their J1. So now i have the japanese fleet in SZ36 with 2BB, 2CV, 4FTR, 1CA, 2DD, 2 TRN. Thy have 4 INF, 2 ART, 1TNK in Burma, while i have 6INF and the US FTR from Szechwan. I can maybe get 2 FTR for defense my turn before they invade, but do i put them on my CV, or in India? Is there any possible way you can keep the british fleet in the Indian Ocean alive? It doesn’t seem possible. Do i just kamakazi it on the Japanese units in SZ37 and say “screw the british fleet” and just stock up on INF and FTR’s in India?
J2 will bring 7INF, 2ART, 1TNK. 16attack vs my 16defense? And that’s IF japan doesn’t use it’s BB, CA, FTR, or Bomber.It just seems like no matter what you do, it is always going to end up being a coin flip, and i hate playing games that i end up winning or losing based on a coin flip.
There’s 5 UK infantry on India/Persia/Burma, plus 3 new builds, plus 5 fighters (excluding the Russian ones) and 1 UK bomber. You can also leave the carrier behind to prevent the battleship shot.
I don’t feel like giving up Africa is worth it. I’ll just forfeit the game to my 12 y/o daughter and go KGF next game. She will be happy.
What are the odds of a 40% victory following a 60-70% victory, around 25%? Sure it’s possible, but unlikely. Are you really going to PLAN on this? I wouldn’t. I try not to plan on anything less than 80%
Plus you still have to contend with 4-5 more subs per turn. You can’t beat them AND make transports/other land support naval units.
On a KJF the US only needs to build 1 additional transport on US2, all of the money goes naval (fighters, carriers, subs, destroyers) until you prevent Japan from reconquering Borneo/E. Indies and build an IC there. Until you defeat the Japanese fleet you don’t build any more transports.
Also you are now talking about being on Round 4, and only taking Borneo. Germany is about 2-4 turns from ending this game.
Well, you get the IC on Borneo working on US3, so on US4 you could have a 1st transport ready of troops to kick Japan out of Asia or not, depending on the situation. But the major thing effect of defeating the Japanese fleet is now that India should be secure and can start sending help to the Russians.
But at this point it’s really speculation… I need to try this, there’s a LOT of potential moves, some on the previous posts (I’d buy fighters/bombers instead of subs as Japan… from my experience on 1st Edition the Allies will eventually prevail on the Pacific and planes have a bigger reach and are more useful to harass the US transports on Asia) and the odds are… well, there will be ways to make them better on each situation.
I agree planes have more utility, but subs only hit naval units. I know this sounds like a negative, but honestly i think it’s a huge bonus. Now you don’t have to worry about defending planes on AC’s. Say US has 46IPC per turn on US4, and Japan has around 35 IPC. Japan makes 5-6 subs per turn. What can the US make that will win against that? I have tried every combination, the subs always win. BMR’s/FTR’s don’t always win. So you lose utility, but you gain naval superiority. Which means you severely limit the capabilities of India and a possible US Borneo. Can’t get ground units off Borneo, and if you were just going to send FTR’s to India/RUS you could have done that without giving up your pacific fleet.
Only way UK secures India is if they give up Africa. I have gone over the numbers, you can’t do both. While Japan will be severely limited in ground forces by buying so many subs, they do have enough starting units and TRN’s + J1 2x TRN build to take it if UK doesn’t sacrifice Africa to hold it. So now your talking about a 20IPC UK, and a 20IPC RUS vs a 50+IPC Germany. The second Moscow falls, Germany will steamroll/liberate the entire Asian/African continents then drop a navy in the Baltic and take Brittan.
Hi, new to playing and just curious what others think about this in relation to the reality of a wwii tank unit vs. aircraft. :mrgreen:
I think it has more to do with streamlining/balancing a game, and less to do with historical accuracy. If you went by pure historical accuracy, then Axis would always lose and no one would play this game.
@Cow:
Also it allows germany to do sea lion and actually be a threat to london, so you might see some different games here and there.
I hope you are not claiming that Sea Lion works on Revised… ROFL :D
I did it once… Only once… But it was GLORIOUS!!! They never saw it coming. G2 takes Brittan… Game over. YAY AXIS!
Well I did it once too and even conquered the Western US once or twice… all usually against new players… the point is that it depends on very bad mistakes by the Allies.
It was like a perfect storm. I had a long history of building naval units on G1, so when i bought some transports they didn’t really think twice. Plus my opponent was on this UK1 IC in India “plan”, so he wasn’t building much of anything in Brittan and instead focusing on getting the shucking started between US/UK and Europe as fast as possible.
@Cow:
Also it allows germany to do sea lion and actually be a threat to london, so you might see some different games here and there.
I hope you are not claiming that Sea Lion works on Revised… ROFL :D
I did it once… Only once… But it was GLORIOUS!!! They never saw it coming. G2 takes Brittan… Game over. YAY AXIS!
See I’m not going to DEFEND Borneo. I’m going to leave my newly built subs in SZ60 and my starting navy of 1BB, 2DD, 1AC, 2FTR, 1CA, and 1SS (assuming SZ37 is mutually destroyed by UK SZ35/39 units) in SZ35 off the coast of India. Then i wait until US decides where to attack. Lets say you take Borneo, now i attack with my starting navy, plus 5 subs. US loses and i still have my entire fleet minus 3-4 subs.
The wonderful thing about this strategy is Japan doesn’t have to defend anything. I just sit and wait for US to decide where it wants to attack, then i counter and destroy it.
Sean, the US can always block those 5 subs on SZ60 from attacking SZ47 by moving 1 destroyer to SZ48. There’s simply no way for Japan to deal with those destroyer blockers unless Germany brings a fighter/bomber to the Pacific. The US can also skip Borneo and focus on East Indies and then the subs on SZ60 can’t reach the US fleet off East Indies.
Or the US can simply send a single transport with fighter support to take Borneo and then Japan has to react. Lots of ways to skin this cat…
You’re talking about a 25% probability for Allies on round 3. So i make 5 more subs on J3, you take Borneo on US2, and reinforce on UK3, and we annihilate each other on J3. I now have 4-5 subs in SZ48 and 4 more in SZ60. You have maybe 1BB. US3 you build an IC on Borneo. J4 buy some ground units and TRN’s and start shucking them to the mainland, and i destroy any leftover US/UK naval vessles and you can keep your worthless Borneo. All you can do with it at this point is build FTR’s and use them to fortify India/Russia. You’re US/UK naval presence in the Pacific is now over.
Only way to take Borneo with FTR support is to move an AC into SZ49 which then gets eaten by some subs, or if your entire fleet goes there then we annihilate each other with you having a 40% chance of winning.
Any way you look at it, Germany takes Moscow and Axis wins.
Ok, so then it is:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34) vs 3 ACs, 1 BB, 1DD, 1 SS, 6 FTRs (37)
60% chance of Japanese victory. (average IPC loss for Allies is 114) 75% for Japan with LL dice.
It’s better, it’s at least viable, but at this point it is assuming lucky dice at SZ37 on UK1. So a 60-70% chance of your UK1 strategy working right, plus an eventual 60% showdown. But you should average out to around 1BB and your transports left for US/UK in the pacific, maybe you also save a destroyer. Then IF you do have a DD left you could try to attack the 5 subs on US turn with 46% odds of winning.
2 subs, UK and US - UK1 buy is still 1 carrier, 1 fighter, 1 sub.
Even if Japan wins the US should be able to build an IC on US3 because it can bring 2 inf, and the UK can also lift 2 inf from Australia. And on US3 the first ships built on US1 also start arriving at Borneo….even if Japan attacks the Allied fleet off Borneo on J3 and wins, any survivors will face the risk of an US counterattack.
What are the odds of a 40% victory following a 60-70% victory, around 25%? Sure it’s possible, but unlikely. Are you really going to PLAN on this? I wouldn’t. I try not to plan on anything less than 80%
Plus you still have to contend with 4-5 more subs per turn. You can’t beat them AND make transports/other land support naval units.
Also you are now talking about being on Round 4, and only taking Borneo. Germany is about 2-4 turns from ending this game.
US moves destroyer to SZ48 (Philippines) on US2 and blocks your 5 subs from reaching that SZ.
India also gets 3 ground units, plus the US fighter, plus 3 UK fighters (the 2 from West Russia - since no carrier is built on UK2)… with the starting units included I don’t Japan can break that with 4 ground units plus planes.
Ok, so then it is:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34) vs 3 ACs, 1 BB, 1DD, 1 SS, 6 FTRs (37)
60% chance of Japanese victory. (average IPC loss for Allies is 114) 75% for Japan with LL dice.
It’s better, it’s at least viable, but at this point it is assuming lucky dice at SZ37 on UK1. So a 60-70% chance of your UK1 strategy working right, plus an eventual 40% showdown. But you should average out to around 1BB and your transports left for US/UK in the pacific, maybe you also save a destroyer. Then IF you do have a DD left you could try to attack the 5 subs on US turn with 46% odds of winning.
At least when they were 2 defense they cost 8 IPC. I think that is much more balanced. Then you can’t outproduce subs over equally powerful destroyers, or cruisers. While cruisers cost 12IPC, they have the same ATK/DEF per IPC as destroyers. 4IPC per point of ATK/DEF. So then you can grab 1 destroyer, and some cruisers and still bombard stuff while simultaneously defending against subs.
UK cannot keep India and Africa, and Africa is worth more.
I’ve already mentioned this: subs here are maximized for attack but they have serious drawbacks, specially you can’t rely on them to defend a fleet against air attacks. And Japan needs to have transports so doesn’t matter if you have 10, 15 or 20, they can be rendered useless to defend surface ships and transports against air attacks.
Like Mallery29 said, the ‘new’ sub stats have been introduced 4 years ago on Anniversary and so far no one has ever complained about them or you see people using massive fleets of subs on AA50, AA41.1 or Global… they can’t go on land and they can’t defend against planes.
Maybe it’s the combination of the new map, initial starting unit placement, and the subs which make them so potent now? Or maybe everyone always went KGF before? The old map seemed to favor KGF, and the new map (at least at first glance) appears to favor KJF.
Why does Japan need transports? Why can it not just build a pure navy to defeat any UK/US navy in the pacific and let Germany beat Russia?