I took pieces of it for other things… its a good idea platform for other things. I will eventually use them in a AAE game
AAE not broken–Tank Push Broken, Balance Restored
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For years we have played and enjoyed AAE. When we discovered the Tank-Push (TP), we agreed with many others that the game was broken. When we then played, we would have to agree to not use this strategy. This was frustrating, not being able to utilize what was a good plan to win, even though we could wage a more balanced war and still win. We have been working on various ways to rebalance the game and have gone through changes from changing Attack/Defense values, SBR retooling, free items, convoy zone changes, bonus units, Siberian troops, territory value and size changes to even adding Italy as a 5th player. (Sidebar) Italy as a 5th player replacing German units may come the closest and there is a discussion by players who have developed their own variations of this in the house rules section (but I digress). Basically all of the tweaks we tried either didn’t work or over-compensated and complicated the OOB ruleset.
What we wanted though was NOT to make a house rule or variant, but to develop a simple, easy to understand, easy to utilize and believable way to rebalance the game rather than create something different. There are great ‘Advanced’ versions out there that we wouldn’t have to reinvent to expand and balance, but hey, we already bought this board and wouldn’t it be great if we could play it!
Our goal is simple: to rebalance AAE and remove the ‘broken’ stigma. We have play-tested an idea that also appears to bear out under the statistical analysis and think it viable to fulfill our goal. And what’s great is that it doesn’t actually change any of the rules. While this may not make AAE the most popular version out there, with all the new variations and the scuttlebutt about a potential revised AAE on the horizon, it would be nice to simply have AAE seen as playable.
This strategy is designed to break the TP and because of the risky nature of the TP anyhow, pushing all the eggs to the Eastern Front, will most likely break the back of the Axis in the game. Still, dice have to be rolled and either side could win, but the numbers bear out that the possibility of Allies winning against the TP are far more than the odds they lose. And what else is nice is that you are not committing to breaking it until the Axis show their hand on doing it. What you do as Russia is a solid move even if the Axis don’t TP. Your analysis and feedback are always welcome, especially if you are still playing AAE. We don’t think that we could be the only people to have come to this result but have not seen it on the forum and so if it can help the community, all the better.
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Sea Lion’s have been done in AAE, why shouldn’t Barbarossa be possible or at least an acceptable way to play rather than signaling the attempt to take advantage of a broken game? But the TP should not be a guarantee. Maybe the offensive will work, maybe it won’t, but there is a chance for both sides to win. Honestly, the best chance to win will be in a more balanced approach to the war.
What has come out of it is a reassessment of how to wage the war. Too often I fear Russian players simply fall back, building INF and trying to hold out, utilizing their 6 tanks often only on defense. They wait until the Axis is at it’s strongest to make a last ditch attempt to thwart Barbarossa, but to no avail.
First let’s look at the basic version of the Tank-Push, which can be found in several threads in this forum:
@Rakeman:Ok, so it has been decided by many that the following strategy makes Germany win every time:
1. Use 12 IPC at start to buy a transport, capture leningrad with 4 land units
2. Build all infantry
3. On subsequent turns, build all tanks
4. Kill Russia**The two breakdowns, either 1 turn or 2 of Infantry building can be seen in these differences:
1-Turn build–reach Moscow by G5, 13 Infantry to the front
2-Turn build–reach Moscow by G6, 26 Infantry to the front,
*The key to winning by TP is to overwhelm the Eastern Front at the expense and sacrifice of the Western Front. So everything is pushed toward the Eastern Front except INF in France/Netherlands. An effective TP will overwhelm the Eastern Front before the Western Front completely collapses on Germany.
An effective TP can expect to take EPoland & Ukraine by turn 3, unite in Belo on turn 4 and take Moscow in turn 5. For two turn INF build, simply delay 1 turn. Proceed directly to Moscow, do not pass go. -
So, how to break the TP? We call it the Rumanian Wedge. The basic understanding is that Russia must split Germany’s offensive, i.e. drive a wedge into it. The UK and US must utilize Lend-Lease (Soviet Patriotic War) and continue to ship both fighters and bombers to Russia each turn (for US, as much as possible for UK). This additional punch will be critical to the Eastern Front in later rounds. A combination of this wedge being driven into Axis forces and the continual addition of aircraft will be the key to grinding the Tank-Push to a halt. This will not cause the Russians to quickly be pouring into Berlin, but the point isn’t to do that. It’s an Allied cause and for the the Russians to simply fight to a standstill is all that needs to occur until the other Allies can overcome the Atlantic wall and open the 2nd front. Still what will most often happen is that the German offensive will be crushed in Belo, and the last group of Armor and Luftwaffe will be sitting in E Poland without additional support because Germany has turtled as UK/US are assaulting Germany after liberating France.
The Rumanian Wedge
The key is Rumania. Often Bessarbia can come into play with it, but will most likely always include Rumania. Any pulling of German forces in Europe away from the buildup and march to Moscow will help the allies. This is about pitting Soviet forces against Axis in helpful situations (not always winning, but helpful) Think about this, normally most of the German forces around Rumania/Hungary (Balkans/Czech/Austria/etc) will end up in those two countries at the end of G1 to help discourage a Russian offensive. But all 6 of the Russian tanks can end up in striking range of Rumania at the end of R1 and a large enough buildup in Ukraine in R1 will often again cause additional buildup on G2 in Rumania/Hungary. So a R2 strike with ARM/INF/ART into Rumania supported by air will destroy the German military there. Additionally, forces that are likely within range to retaliate on G3 will likely not be sufficient to wipe out the Soviet offensive, hence you’ve destroyed what would be Army Group South.
Any additional drives into this area by the Germans can continue to be met should they desire to do so, but that will get them off track on their TP to Moscow by G5/6, so they will likely be pushing into EPoland by this point. Great news, your armor can reach EPoland and with the help of other units from Belo, Baltic, and Ukraine, a strafe of EPoland followed by general retreat to Belo will result in further havoc on the Axis and put you back in proper defensive position between Germany and Moscow.
Here an Axis attack will possibly destroy your Soviet forces, (this is that helpful, losing the battle, winning the war part) but your reinforcements from surrounding territories supported by air power will knock out the TP as by this time (R4/5) the other Allies should be closing in on Germany and causing Germany to build INF to protect itself. Your ARM have had multiple offensive hits and been in key positions to be used against two prongs of the German offensive, crippling both.For a 2-Turn INF build, the plan is much the same, though perhaps a bit closer for the Soviets in the long run. Good news is that it doesn’t have the early attack punch to hit your Wedge because of the 2nd INF build. Drive the Wedge into Rumania again, utilize your Armor and Air Power to maximize your effectiveness and do not forget that adding a few ART into your builds will increase your overall attack power.
In both scenarios, a retreat into Ukraine when the Axis can retaliate from EPoland is not necessarily a bad plan should the opportunity arise, but still should be weighed carefully as to which will get you maximum effect. Should the Axis head through Belo and avoid your Ukrainian withdrawl you avoid the attacks of the Luftwaffe. Should they attack, they have put themselves another turn away from Moscow and allow you to continue building forces to hit them from multiple directions. Drawing the Axis south is better than north as Leningrad is more useful to be left open for aircraft to arrive from the Allies. Certainly the loss of Leningrad is not helpful, but by this time the possibility of Norway/Findland being held by one of the three Allies is very good and aircraft can be brought to USSR via these There are ways territories and around around the loss of Leningrad. Any diversion of Axis forces really will help the Soviet cause in the long run. It happened historically, it happens in the game.Allied Lend-Lease: The continual building of aircraft to give to Russia can be disturbing to many Allied players, but as the Axis is not adding to the Atlantic fleet, the Atlantic can be brought under Allied control in a 2-3 turns max. But without the aircraft to Russia, Moscow will fall before the Allies arrive in Normandy.
US–needs to build and send 1 Fighter and 1 Bomber per turn. On US1, buy this, and then save the rest of the 40 IPCs until you can build extra multiple ships on US2 as the US may likely lose their 2 convoy zones.
UK–send all starting 3 Fighters and Bomber to Russia if possible, meaning, if the Malta fighter survives, send it too!. If you can build another Fighter on either UK2 or 3 and send it also will be a great help.Atlantic & Med The TP calls for all new spending to go to the Russian Front, so theoretically the best the Axis can do is impede the Allies in the Atlantic through turn 3. After that, because there has not been additional deployments, without miracle dice the battle for the Atlantic goes to the Allies.
As to the Med, the Axis has really all it needs to not only dominate the Med for the first 4+ turns, but to by the end of it, to take at least a good chunk of the Oil Territories. In light of the overall war, the best the Allies can really expect to put into this area is what is there to begin with. The loss of these areas can be slowed and will not cost them the war.Bonus Initial placement: Typical TP placement of 12 Axis IPCs is often a TRN with the starting TRN and an ART on the Eastern Front or Northern Africa. The ART helps later battles and the TRN helps to take Leningrad. I would recommend giving the 12 to the Soviets and placing 2 INF in Lenin and 2 in Bessarbia. This will help defend against the landing in Lenin, forcing them to bring fighters to help take it and both exposing them to AA and keeping them out of the Atlantic. Placing 2 in Bessarbia helps to defend your ARM there from a small push G1. in the event that it draws a large push, you have the start of your Wedge all setup for you. How kind.
Should Lenin fall on G1 even with your additional placements, R1 can easily see the recapture of it and opening to Allied Lend-Lease landings that very round.I’ll line out some likely steps for the Eastern front, but as we all know changes and tweaks are a part of the game and strategy and such, so this can’t be a set-in-stone plan, it has to be as fluid as the battle. Once the Wedge is started it should start creating havoc with the Axis player’s plans to quickly push to Moscow. Russia gets to be the focus, they get to use all the tools, thanks to the Allies, who end up making their income look like 50+ instead of 24. Take your time, you can stop the Push and force the Axis to fight balanced.
G1-2–builds up Western Front, builds INF, then ARM R2–Russia takes all tanks and units in range to take Rumania before G3 invasion of Russia. G3–Germany should invade EPOL, and try to also repel Rumanian invasion. R3–Russia takes tanks in Rumania and strafes EPOL, then retreats to Belo. smaller force continues advance into Balkan Pen/Hungary. G4–Germany likely takes Belo. R4–combined force of all remaining Russian forces in Lenin/Stal/Russ/Mosc +planes take Belo. Germany still has planes in EPOL and up to 8 tanks, but two turns from Mosc as Allies should be starting landing and forcing GER to turtle.
**this is a rundown of a 1-turn INF build for Germany, a 2-turn build can be extrapolated but gives Germany more time to build and advance, but more time for Allies to land. -
I can’t wait to try this approach!
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I can’t wait to try this approach!
Awesome. let me know how it went, love to hear the action report.
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Interesting… how does this work for you?
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The RW diverts the German attention away from Moscow and the TP. Russia fights the helpful battles, usually smaller than the big stack fight in Belo or Moscow that often goes with a TP. Russia is vast and each territory really isn’t worth that much, so if they are putting everything towards Moscow they really need to go straight there. Pulling them away from there will dissipate their attack. The RW really forces Germany to not be singular in attack by breaking down the pieces that play to their advantage. And when they cease to be singular, the TP actually ceases and the Axis is left with a huge gapping hole to the West and a quagmire to the East.
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So what if Germany just pretends the RW didn’t happen and goes straight for Moscow anyway?
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that’s a good question, one which I tried as Germany a number of times.
In short they run don’t have the troops to overwhelm Russia like they need.
They try the TP without most of Army Group South and/or give up the territories all the way to Italy before the TP could hit Moscow, which it won’t.
For the TP to work, Germany needs the bulk of the Army Group South (Hungary/ Czech/ Austria and south) to participate in Barbarossa. There’s no good way though that we’ve found yet for Germany to get enough of it’s troops from the Balkan Peninsula to Moscow by going around the RW to participate in the TP to make it effective. Hungary can move it’s troops north to Poland, but most of the rest get caught by advancing Russian troops out of Ukraine/Bessarbia. Russia can pull it’s tanks back to hit EPol without problem and still take the Peninsula with minimal troops supported by air and could feasibly even get some additional help from the British forces in Egypt as by B2-3 the Med DD/Trn is likely still around.
Another option for Russia then is to push north from Rumania and into Poland, cutting off the German supply line and either separating their units (as they’d be building tanks then and their armor would be a turn away to help) or forcing them to turn back and further delay their push. Russia would still be picking off the Penn. countries and causing Germany to further defend or give up the Italy.
End result is Germany’s offensive being split and not effective. The TP is like walking a tightrope that’s been set on fire behind you. You are hoping to get across it before the fire catches you or burns through it behind you.
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It’s just like the historical result. Germany tried a Tank Push to Moscow in reality. BUT, because they diverted troops to Leningrad when less than 200 miles from Moscow and they diverted away from the Oil fields to Stalingrad Their superior offensive ability was blunted on the numerous Russian targets rather than the prize of Stalin, Oil and Moscow. Had they just pushed straight at Moscow when they were supposed to they would have leveled it before the Siberian Army and winter arrived. Then they could have dealt with them and turned en masse at Stalingrad from Moscow and from the captured Oil Fields. -
so can Germany still win the game in your opinion/experience without the tank push?
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so can Germany still win the game in your opinion/experience without the tank push?
i think so, yes.
the RW is designed as a counter to a specific Axis strategy, the TP, and should force the Axis to then change away from a TP. The best way to counter the RW is to fight a more balanced war, which I believe is the best way to win as the Axis in the first place. I believe it is possible to hold/delay the Allies in the Atlantic and take out Russia. The game really isn’t designed for the Axis to take out anyone else. The game considers Barbarossa to occur whether or not Germany attacks Russia, so for Germany to truly consider taking any other capital would require a fundamental change to the game with this.
But more to the topic, I believe that Germany can win starting without the TP, but also to start with it, see the RW and then swing away from the TP and counter the RW and go back to fighting a more balanced war and still win. Granted it’s harder, but if the Atlantic is played well to begin with, I think you can add subs from G3 on and delay the Allies to still fight Russia. Probably will depend on the strength of the aircraft Lend-Lease employed, but the more of this, the less strength in Allied shipping, so there’s a give and take.
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The best way to counter the RW is to fight a more balanced war, which I believe is the best way to win as the Axis in the first place. I believe it is possible to hold/delay the Allies in the Atlantic and take out Russia. The game really isn’t designed for the Axis to take out anyone else. The game considers Barbarossa to occur whether or not Germany attacks Russia, so for Germany to truly consider taking any other capital would require a fundamental change to the game with this.
yeah, the tp has forced Axis players to be seen as going ‘cheap’ too often with Sealion being an all-or-nothing gambit and the tank-push ‘unstoppable’. i think that the fact that the sides are close, but maybe not ‘equal’ is part of the beauty of the game. historically they weren’t equal. matching everything too equally removes the historical part of the game. if i want just strategy, i’ll play ‘go’ or heck ‘risk’ or ‘connect four’, but the historical context is what makes AA so compelling, as it recreates history in a simple way and there are the challenges therein to deal with.
but i digress in a rant. i’ll break out AAE again and try some wargames. -
Has anyone tried out this tactic yet? We just played our first game of Europe a couple weeks ago and had a blast. It will be quite disapointing if the game is broken and Germany can win everytime with OOB rules. (I am not a fan of house rules in any way, shape, or form. Free Parking is Free Parking :wink: )
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I tried it out, worked quite nicely actually. it was 1v1, so the Allies could coordinate being all the same person and all. i straight up told him to use the tank-push if he wanted or not, I didn’t care. I did tell him I had a plan to counter it though if he tried. Well, as that had been the case before he said, ok, and brought it on headfirst.
i basically slowly retreated in Africa with the brits and used my bonus for the 4 extra russians in lenin and bessarbia. He built a trn and did manage to take lenin first turn, but had to bring fighters and lost one, taking with only 1 art, which I reclaimed on R1. I pushed into Romania on r2 and the pulled back and hit epol with the tanks as he just tried to box me in the south and continued on toward Moscow. After he thought I was putting myself totally out of position (hehehe). Anyhow, he did take up to belo before russia with it’s nice and shiny new airforce put the brakes to the german advance. UK/US broke through atlantic soon after to start landing and though he had africa and tried to start building a second push into Russia I had already cleared out through Norway and all the way through the Balkans to Italy when he gave up.
we’re gonna try it again, now that he’s seen it, but so far so good. I’m liking the balance approach better all the time.
I don’t think it’s a broken game, but I’d want to play it some more to see what other counters, or counter-counters (i guess) there could be.
all in all, i like the game, it’s not bulge, but hey, what is? -
great feedback luckyday. We are going to play tonight (friday), and since I don’t think my group is aware of the tank push I don’t know if we are going to be able to use this strategy or not. I haven’t mentioned the tank push to anyone because we really enjoyed our first game with Europe and I don’t want a (possible) unbeatable strategy to ruin the game.
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Okay I just wanted to clarify, the tank push is where Germany goes all out and destroys Russia as fast as possible. Dumping all resoures into Russia and ingnoring UK and US. If this is true this is the stratagy I’ve always used and I personally think its not foolproof stratagy. If the Allies play their cards right they can stop Germany in their tracks. UK sending fghters and bombers and landing little raids in Dennmark and taking Norway. With the US landing on Morocco and pushing the Germans out of Africa.
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correct, Tankpush is where germany ignores the western front in terms of new purchases and spends everything on INF for a turn or two followed by only ARM. Everything moves towards Moscow, including all the ARM that started in France. Generally only the INF in France&Netherlands are left. They overwhelm Moscow before the other allies can get into Europe and threaten Berlin. Should the Allies arrive in W-EU before Moscow falls, Germany simply turtles in Berlin while the mass forces they have in Russia take Moscow.
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–luckyday
appreciate the feedback on your game. hope it opens up new gameplay and strategies for you.–moony
probably best if your group doesn’t know about the TP, Axis’ best strat appears to be to fight the more balanced war anyhow and fight the delaying aspect in the West and throw more into the East. Not a 50-50 split, but not the 100-0 of the Tankpush.–historybuff
very true, the TP is as you describe and as luckyday lines out–it isn’t unstoppable, but it stopped a lot of players in their tracks thinking it was. Knowing that the Axis’ goal is to take a capital, you know they have to pick one of the 2 closest, and Moscow is the more likely choice. Using the Allies as allies can thwart the Axis advance, but you have to play to your strengths and not theirs. The combination of Allied air shipments to Moscow and the proper application of ‘leverage’ of the Russian ground forces will give the TP a very bad day. -
I’ve been pwning my friend in FTF as Germany lately, so I’ll throw my two cents out.
Germany can win any way it chooses so long as the dice go your way…believe me, I’ve been witness to some BAD lucky streaks from my friend lately.
Convoys and the Middle East are important for Germany. Taking IPCs from your opponents is the easiest way to win. Tanks to Moscow can certainly work, and I’ve won that way. But it can also falter, due to poor choices or poor dice…or good opposing strategy.
The Allies have to have a cooridnated plan. Take France with Britain and reenforce with US fighters…if you can hold Leningrad, consider bombing Germany. As with all A&A games, money is the key…if the game takes too long, Germany starts to falter, as the combined incomes of the Allies take hold.
I’ve yet to see the TP have battles that approach anything close to odds…once I see that work, I’ll rethink it, but the game is not a guarantee with that strategy or any other. :-)
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Germany can win any way it chooses so long as the dice go your way…believe me, I’ve been witness to some BAD lucky streaks from my friend lately.
well gee… if you look at it that way, then any strategy can win and having a strategy of getting lucky dice is probably the best one to have. “This game I’ll have roll all ones, and I’ll win!!” yay!!
I think that terribly oversimplifies things. I think murray was talking about the coordinated plan for the Allies which forces the Axis to play a more balanced game with threats to the Med & Mid-E. I’ve used his plan against the TP and in games since my opponent has taken different approaches to gaining victory. He wiped out all but 2 of the convoys (the 2 3ipc uk ones) and took the mid-east but still lost with the tp.