Legitimate Military Target?

sorry to be a “reposter”, but i read this this morning:

JERUSALEM – Yasser Arafat’s top deputy said the armed uprising against Israel has been a mistake for the Palestinians and must be stopped, declaring it had held up Palestinian independence and led to a reoccupation of West Bank cities by Israeli troops.

The blunt comments by Mahmoud Abbas, one of several potential successors to the politically weakened Arafat, are the harshest criticisms a senior Palestinian figure has levelled at militants since violence began in September The remarks come at a time when extremists are pressing ahead with bombings and shootings, while ordinary Palestinians are increasingly split on whether the uprising is moving them closer to – or driving them further from – Palestinian statehood. The pointed statements were seen as a milestone in opening a public debate Palestinians have previously conducted only in private.

“Many people diverted the uprising from its natural path and embarked on a path we can’t handle, with the use of weapons … such as mortars, grenades and shooting from houses and populated areas,” Abbas said in a closed-door meeting with activists of Arafat’s Fatah movement in the Gaza Strip on Oct. “If we do a calculation of the gains and losses … we will see that without any doubt is that what we lost was big and what we gained was small,” he said. "We have to control the situation.

“What is needed now is to say, clearly and firmly … enough.”

Abbas, was en route to Doha, Qatar, yesterday and was not available for comment. The Associated Press obtained a transcript of the private meeting from Abbas’ office yesterday after Al Hayat, an Arabic-language daily based in London, published excerpts Tuesday. The excerpts were reprinted yesterday in the Palestinian daily Al Quds.

For two years, Palestinian leaders and the public have strongly endorsed the intefadeh, or uprising, and public debate has been minimal, despite heavy losses.

The fighting has put off any prospect of Palestinian independence in the near future, has left the economy in shambles and led to the reoccupation of most West Bank towns by Israeli troops, in retaliation for Palestinian attacks. Almost 2,000 Palestinians and more than 650 Israelis have been killed.

“What happened in these two years, as we see it now, is a complete destruction of everything we built,” Abbas said.

In Washington, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said he had limited information on Abbas’s remarks. But referring to the uprising, he said, “I believe it clearly was a mistake. It hasn’t brought the Palestinian people any closer to a state of their own or to peace.”

Abbas did not name militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

In violence yesterday, two Palestinians were shot dead by Israeli troops in the West Bank, and in the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian bomber blew up a car near an Israeli-Palestinian liaison office, killing himself, but causing no injuries to bystanders. [\quote]

my reason for posting this is that other posters have been on EG’s back because Israel has been “treating Palastinians like second class citizens”. The thing about this is that these 2nd class citizens themselves admit to a war campaign within the country that they supposedly should have citizenship rights too. There is very little to compare this to. I was thinking that if a segment of the American population (say Californians - that’s for you TG) decided to organize and conduct a terror campaign against America then they would be quickly wiped out, and i don’t see them having too many privileges with the ringleaders receiving the death sentance depending on the state that they are in, but then i decided that there were too many holes in this analogy . . . .

I was thinking that if a segment of the American population (say Californians - that’s for you TG) decided to organize and conduct a terror campaign against America then they would be quickly wiped out, and i don’t see them having too many privileges with the ringleaders receiving the death sentance depending on the state that they are in, but then i decided that there were too many holes in this analogy . . . .

hahahaha… us Californians don’t give up that easily without a fight. :wink:

Naw Californians couldn’t cede, they’d run out of power daily.

sorry to be a “reposter”, but i read this this morning:

But CC, we’re Moderators, we can do anything :)

Your quote demostrates quite a few of my points. First and foremost, the destruction of the Palestinian infrastructure. The hundreds of millions of dollars in aid every year that was spent by the Europeans and some Americans has gone to waste. Not because the Palestinians wasted the money, they put it to good use. Its wasted because the Israelis destroyed it. Yes, some of the buildings were being used by terrorists. But far more were probably just being used by Government officals, doing their Government work. Now, the Government cannot function because the officals cannot do their job.

Also when Israel was attacked by Palastinians they would respond by levelling a building in retaliation. I recall a group of Israeli citizens getting killed in a terrorist attack. In retaliation they informed the Palastinians that they were going to level the police station. After sufficient time had passed to clear out the station some Israel 'choppers took it out. I’d suggest this is more humane than simply killing a bunch of Palastinians in retaliation . . . .
(yes, the case could be made that they are doing far more damage, but i disagree - one can always find some space for a new police building, but you can never replace the lives lost . . . .

Today has been a horrible day for Israelis. A hotel owned by Jews in Kenya was attacked and 3 Israelis died. An El-Al, that’s Israeli airlines, plane was shot at with missiles while flying from Kenya to Israel and Palestinian gunmen killed at least 6 Israelis who went to elect in the primaries for the head of the Likud Party.

To address F_alk’s ocmment about the world not wanting to kill Jews anymore, forgive me for not beliving this, but I simply can’t, especially now. There were many timesi n Jewish History when anti-semitism appeared dead but re-arose from itself, and post-September 11th has been one of them. I’ll post for you some interesting quotes and articles so you can see my point.

Yanny - you seem either not to be reading what I post, or you are simply ignoring it and going back to the same point. When Yasser Arafat had less officers and officials than he did now but decided to truly crack down on terrorism, he did so successfully and it took Hamas and Islamic Jihad a year to recover. Your comment about Hamas gaining something more powerful than a bomb strapped to a chest is unrealistic. It’s the same reason Al-Qaeda would never drop a nuclear bomb on the US. The terrorists want to die for their country, not have their countries wiped out. Al-Qaeda saw how America retaliated for 5,000 killed in 9/11. If they were to kill say 200,000 in a nuclear attack, imagine America’s retaliation. There would not be an Arab country around anymore. The same thing with Israel. Israel wouldn’t sit idly by if they were to launch a nuclear attack on Israel. They would most likely expel quite a few of the Palestinians from Israel and destroy their homes. Such an attack would hurt them more than it would hurt Israel.

Now, F_alk, of course they are used to adapt to modern times. The reaso nthe students wanted to know if electricity is like fire is because one of the things that one is not allowed to do is to create fire on Shabbat, so the rabbinical authority had to analyze exactly what electricity is, go through the Talmud and her discussions to see if it falls under the category of something that is allowed or not. In the end, electricty was not allowed to be used on shabbat, along with other things such as driving a car.

you see, i wondered about that whole “electricity” thing.
I thought the thing about the “shabbot” was that instead of working, this was to be a day of worship. Electricity and cars would, in theory, reduce the work of a God-honoring Jew and free up time to worship and rest, no?

or am i missing the point here?

Today has been a horrible day for Israelis. A hotel owned by Jews in Kenya was attacked and 3 Israelis died. An El-Al, that’s Israeli airlines, plane was shot at with missiles while flying from Kenya to Israel and Palestinian gunmen killed at least 6 Israelis who went to elect in the primaries for the head of the Likud Party.

Sadly, 8 Kenyans also died. Today’s attacks are evidence there are well organized terrorist groups behind attacks. And it seems they are based outside Israel.

To address F_alk’s ocmment about the world not wanting to kill Jews anymore, forgive me for not beliving this, but I simply can’t, especially now. There were many timesi n Jewish History when anti-semitism appeared dead but re-arose from itself, and post-September 11th has been one of them. I’ll post for you some interesting quotes and articles so you can see my point.

The Israelis could be Christian or Muslim for all I care. Their Religion is not what is fueling this conflict. This conflict is being fueled by hate and death, not piety.

Yanny - you seem either not to be reading what I post, or you are simply ignoring it and going back to the same point. When Yasser Arafat had less officers and officials than he did now but decided to truly crack down on terrorism, he did so successfully and it took Hamas and Islamic Jihad a year to recover.

Right now, Yassar Arafat has no infrastructure to do much. His communication assets are basically limited to a cell phone. His command and control assets are probably limited to a laptop and his cell phone. He cannot leave the West Bank, and every few months he gets a close look at an Israeli tank.

Your comment about Hamas gaining something more powerful than a bomb strapped to a chest is unrealistic. It’s the same reason Al-Qaeda would never drop a nuclear bomb on the US.

I have no doubt that if Al-Quaeda had the means, they wouldn’t hesitate to nuke NYC or DC. And thats a problem we have to face. I wouldn’t suspect a full blown nuke hitting Israel, but a dirty bomb could easily happen.

If they were to kill say 200,000 in a nuclear attack, imagine America’s retaliation. There would not be an Arab country around anymore.

No, we wouldn’t go around and destroy every Arab country. But if the same people were behind it as were behind 9/11, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran would all be flattened. But the other nations would probably strengthen their relationships with us. Now Israelis, you’d just nuke a Palestinian city in return. America, we aren’t as ready to use our Nuclear supply as Israelis (Cia said Israel is by far most likely to be the first nation to use Nuclear Weapons).

They would most likely expel quite a few of the Palestinians from Israel and destroy their homes. Such an attack would hurt them more than it would hurt Israel.

Exactly why Israel is such a problem. They are doing the same thing on a small scale after each and every terrorist attack. Terrorists kill 10 Israelis, Israel flattens a police station, or bulldozes a block of homes. And in doing so, Israel her grave ever deeper.

@Yanny:

Today has been a horrible day for Israelis. A hotel owned by Jews in Kenya was attacked and 3 Israelis died. An El-Al, that’s Israeli airlines, plane was shot at with missiles while flying from Kenya to Israel and Palestinian gunmen killed at least 6 Israelis who went to elect in the primaries for the head of the Likud Party.

Sadly, 8 Kenyans also died. Today’s attacks are evidence there are well organized terrorist groups behind attacks. And it seems they are based outside Israel.

that’s like saying that “it looks like the 9/11 attacks are based outside Afghanistan”. The order and the training could come from anywhere in the world - Alabama, Quebec, Chechnya, Israel. The fact that it happened in Kenya has little to do with where it is based.

To address F_alk’s ocmment about the world not wanting to kill Jews anymore, forgive me for not beliving this, but I simply can’t, especially now. There were many timesi n Jewish History when anti-semitism appeared dead but re-arose from itself, and post-September 11th has been one of them. I’ll post for you some interesting quotes and articles so you can see my point.

The Israelis could be Christian or Muslim for all I care. Their Religion is not what is fueling this conflict. This conflict is being fueled by hate and death, not piety.

I don’t think that’s EG’s implication. The Israelites are as much an ethno-cultural group as they are a race, as they are a religious group. Regardless, too many people have a hard-on for annhilating them. It would scare me too.

They would most likely expel quite a few of the Palestinians from Israel and destroy their homes. Such an attack would hurt them more than it would hurt Israel.

Exactly why Israel is such a problem. They are doing the same thing on a small scale after each and every terrorist attack. Terrorists kill 10 Israelis, Israel flattens a police station, or bulldozes a block of homes. And in doing so, Israel her grave ever deeper.

you know, i don’t see what you’re saying Yanny. In my mind by Israel not taking lives in exchange for lives lost, but by dropping a few buildings instead it seems that Israel is acting more humanely. I have friends who think that Israel execute a member of a suicide-bomber in exchange for everyone that bomber kills. Although i’m against murder, i can see the appeal - logical, and bound to work, no?
but not a Christian solution . . . not that they are looking for Christian solutions. . . .

you know, i don’t see what you’re saying Yanny. In my mind by Israel not taking lives in exchange for lives lost, but by dropping a few buildings instead it seems that Israel is acting more humanely.

I agree but Israeli are killing more Palestinian than the opposite, AND are destroying infrastructure…

Also, even if it’s not a reason for palestinian to annihilate the jews, the jews have not legitimacy there, Zionists just chose to go to palestine, claiming it was “a land without people for a people without land”. Just like we had no legitimacy on Africa and America.

Leave to Quebec to harbour terrorists. :lol:

@F_alk:

@EmuGod:

Now, F_alk, of course they are used to adapt to modern times. The reaso nthe students wanted to know if electricity is like fire is because one of the things that one is not allowed to do is to create fire on Shabbat, so the rabbinical authority had to analyze exactly what electricity is, go through the Talmud and her discussions to see if it falls under the category of something that is allowed or not. In the end, electricty was not allowed to be used on shabbat, along with other things such as driving a car.

But why is it that they didn’t want to understand it? By the logic these students used you have to die each shabbat. None of your nerves is allowed to work on Shabbat, as it is “creating fire”.
I guess that would better fit into a new thread.
For the other topic we taked about: The world did not allow a genocide in the Kosove, why should it allow one in Israel/Palestine?

There is no genocide occurring in Israel. I don’t call announcing the checks in the morning for the afternoon and then coming in and killing those who are trying to kill you genocide. Genocide would be coming in and purposelyu tragetting the civilians and killing as many as possible. If Israel wanted to do this, she wouldn’t send in her infantry. She’d use her IAF to wipe out the cities with no casualties.

About your comment F_alk, fristly you are jumping in and attacking what you dont understand. If you read the Shabbat tractate, which is quite big and would take quite a while, you’d see the analysis for all the 39 major categories of things that cannot be done on shabbat and how they’re categories have sub-categories. Your nerves don’t make fire. If they did, I doubt you’d be feeling too good thorugh the incomplete combustion and increase in Carbon, coot and Carbon Monoxide in your system. If it was complete compustion, then the burning oxygen would have to be very very hot, which wouldnt feel too good either. Fire also refers to the creation of a new fire. So for example, if you light a candle on the eve of Shabbat, you cannot touch it on Shabbat and it stays lit. A car uses sparks to create fire to move, which is most likely why it cannot be used on shabbat.

You still did’nt anwser my question about the legitimacy of the jew in palestine, i am very curious (sorry).

@FinsterniS:

You still did’nt anwser my question about the legitimacy of the jew in palestine, i am very curious (sorry).

Which question would that be? If you post it here again, I’ll be glad to answer it.

2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?

@Yanny:

2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?

250,000 Americans and 350,000 British died in World War 2 while 5.2 million Nazis died in World War 2. Does that make the Nazis right for what they did because they had a high head count?

@Yanny:

2,000 Palestinian innocents dead, 800 Israeli innocents dead. Who kills more?

no context, no reference, no meaning.

Emu u are forgetting about the 20 Million SubHumans, oops i meant Russians who were killed ;)

again with the sub-humans… :-?