Added more original wartime material to the site. I hope everyone enjoyed the weekend -
Sincerely,
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The War You Know
Legitimate Military Target?
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you’ve finally hit the nail on the head with the problem. They shouldnt be living as second class citizens, but you can’t make them full citizens and you can’t give them their own country that borders Israel. In around 20 years they will outnumber the Jews, and that’s when it will come. You’re right that not all the Palestinians are corrupt, but those who aren’t sympathize and support Arafat, their corrupt leader. This creates the problem.
You whole statements about superiority is the biggest load of garbage I have ever read in my life. If this is what the CIA has been feeding you, then you are being manipulated very easily. You are drawing conclusions and making attacks based on your own personal feelings due to your loss of a friend, which is regretable.
If Israel did not want to lose territory as you claim, she would have never returned the Sinai, which is bigger than Israel herself, back to Egypt. In the scroll of independence, there never would have been a reference to making peace wit hte Arabs. Israel never would have asked to negotiate after the Six Day War, when it got the famous 3 No’s. You are so blinded by ignorance to fact, that you now not only are taking only part of the information, but are making wild accusations. Wake up, Yanny, the Jews are not conspiring to take over the world.
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So, what your saying is Palestinians must be a second rate ethnic group? And you complain about the Halocaust! This is the same rhetoric that Hitler used in Nazi Germany.
No one is saying that they are any less of people. They are simply a group who is DEMANDING a country of their own, something that I don’t neccessarily think needs to be given into.
Same example again: Would we give the indians back their country right now?
Yanny, I might agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that Israel is not actively seeking to destroy or annihialate the Palestinian people. If you notice, anything that the IDF does is in retaliation from a terrorist attack. IF THE TERRORISM BY PALESTINIANS STOPS, THEN SO WILL THE I.D.F. INCURSIONS INTO PALESTINIAN TERRORITORY.
The Palestinians are led by a terrorist, quite simply. Currently, there are still way too many people rallying behind this mad-man becuase they think he will actually change their lives for the better. When in fact, he is only bringing more blood-shed upon himself and his people.
The Palestinians are getting “greedy” (for lack of a better word) in the sense that they have been given the opportunity to lead their own lives seperate from the Jews. Arafat was given complete control over Palestinian areas, and yet the only thing he does is try to wage more war…
Do you actually think giving in to terrorism is the correct (and most successful) solution to this INSANE situation…?
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fiurslty, I’ll address F_alk’s comment. I know what they learn in Israel because I know what the curriculum is ther and I know people who’ve gone to the schools there and there are no lessons on hating Arabs. The Palestinians have courses on “How to be a Shahid” which is a martyr. As for Talmud religious Jewish students, they are not learning to kill Arabs. Also, these schools are private not public. The talmud was written at least a century before Mohammed so there are no mentions of any hate toward Muslims and it is more of a law book than anything else.
Well, the maths example surelay was not part of that “how to hate courses”. To teach hate, you don’t need a curriculum, lessons or courses on that. For the Talmud and the Thora being old books: So, these books are then taken literally and not adapted/interpreted to new inventions? Of course it won’t mention muslims, but i can remember that once a group of these students/rabbis/whoever interprets asked R.Feynman if he could explain electricity…. all tehy wanted to hear was “is it fire or not”, so they could decide wether it is allowed to use it during Shabbat… and by the way, they did not understand him right :)…
Anyway, to teach hate, all you need is a teacher that hates: it happens in comments of the teachers, not in whole courses.About your comment on democracy, your claim is completely off. The majority isn’t always right. Hitler was elected by a majority but that was far fro mthe right thing to do. Do you justify the Germans’ election of him? Because there is a good chance that the next Hitler will be elected if the Palestinains are made into full citizens.
Hitler did not get into power because a majority voted for him. He was put into power by the president, and after an election, where communists and social democrats where imrposined, terrorized, and banned from open “competition”… even then he needed to otehr parties to support him to get a majority… and after that he destroyed what was left of the democracy.
And the international community would not let the Israelis suffer under a palestinian dictator. But then, fears don’t need reasons… just like hate and love… -
you’ve finally hit the nail on the head with the problem. They shouldnt be living as second class citizens, but you can’t make them full citizens and you can’t give them their own country that borders Israel. In around 20 years they will outnumber the Jews, and that’s when it will come.
Germany and France managed to become friends after two devastating wars (three wars, the first not such devastating), 75 years of hostility. All it takes is leaders with a vision from both sides. And even if one country outnumbers the other… you think the people won’t change, right? 20 years is a long time, nearly one generation… they can learn not to hate each other, just as they learn to hate each other at the moment.
You are so blinded by ignorance to fact, that you now not only are taking only part of the information, but are making wild accusations. Wake up, Yanny, the Jews are not conspiring to take over the world.
Are you so much better, do you have all the information? (i don’t claim i have all)
“Wake up, the world is not conspiring to extinguish the Jews” -
you’ve finally hit the nail on the head with the problem. They shouldnt be living as second class citizens, but you can’t make them full citizens and you can’t give them their own country that borders Israel. In around 20 years they will outnumber the Jews, and that’s when it will come. You’re right that not all the Palestinians are corrupt, but those who aren’t sympathize and support Arafat, their corrupt leader. This creates the problem
If the West Bank and Gaza are still under Israeli control in 20 years, I wouldn’t be surprized if all out war was to erupt. If Israel doesn’t do something, Hamas or another terrorist group is going to get their hands on something bigger than a bomb strapped to their chest. When people are oppressed, expect a revolution. As John Locke said “When the Government no longer protects the right’s of it’s citizens, then the people have the right to enstill a new Government”.
You whole statements about superiority is the biggest load of garbage I have ever read in my life. If this is what the CIA has been feeding you, then you are being manipulated very easily. You are drawing conclusions and making attacks based on your own personal feelings due to your loss of a friend, which is regretable.
Then why are they second class citizens? In America, all Ethnic groups can vote, all territories have the rights of he constitution. We don’t fire loose missiles into houses if we want to apprehend a criminal. We have a justice system, which I don’t see in Israel.
If Israel did not want to lose territory as you claim, she would have never returned the Sinai, which is bigger than Israel herself, back to Egypt. In the scroll of independence, there never would have been a reference to making peace wit hte Arabs. Israel never would have asked to negotiate after the Six Day War, when it got the famous 3 No’s. You are so blinded by ignorance to fact, that you now not only are taking only part of the information, but are making wild accusations.
And Ariel Sharon didn’t make peace with Egypt. The reason that peace was made was because both countries had rational leaders in power. However, Ariel Sharon is far from rational. He is digging a deeper grave for his country.
Wake up, Yanny, the Jews are not conspiring to take over the world
Did I ever say so? Only a fool (or severly misinformed) person believes that. Israelis are killing innocent people. That is my problem. Israelis killing innocent people are getting Americans killed. The Palestinian radicals cannot be excused, but we all know Israel is the only country which can stop the violence. Your country should do itself a favor, kill Arafat, so you no longer have an excuse.
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@F_alk:
Are you so much better, do you have all the information? (i don’t claim i have all)
“Wake up, the world is not conspiring to extinguish the Jews”This is something i do not believe that the Jews have the luxery of actively believing. I’m certain that many Jews heard something similar from their contemporaries prior to crystallnacht, prior to invasion by Egyptian and other forces, and prior to the recent UN conference in South Africa. If I were Jewish, this would be a beautiful thing for me to be able to accept. The question is could i accept it?
Not yet.
But i’m not Jewish. -
sorry to be a “reposter”, but i read this this morning:
JERUSALEM – Yasser Arafat’s top deputy said the armed uprising against Israel has been a mistake for the Palestinians and must be stopped, declaring it had held up Palestinian independence and led to a reoccupation of West Bank cities by Israeli troops.
The blunt comments by Mahmoud Abbas, one of several potential successors to the politically weakened Arafat, are the harshest criticisms a senior Palestinian figure has levelled at militants since violence began in September The remarks come at a time when extremists are pressing ahead with bombings and shootings, while ordinary Palestinians are increasingly split on whether the uprising is moving them closer to – or driving them further from – Palestinian statehood. The pointed statements were seen as a milestone in opening a public debate Palestinians have previously conducted only in private.
“Many people diverted the uprising from its natural path and embarked on a path we can’t handle, with the use of weapons … such as mortars, grenades and shooting from houses and populated areas,” Abbas said in a closed-door meeting with activists of Arafat’s Fatah movement in the Gaza Strip on Oct. “If we do a calculation of the gains and losses … we will see that without any doubt is that what we lost was big and what we gained was small,” he said. "We have to control the situation.
“What is needed now is to say, clearly and firmly … enough.”
Abbas, was en route to Doha, Qatar, yesterday and was not available for comment. The Associated Press obtained a transcript of the private meeting from Abbas’ office yesterday after Al Hayat, an Arabic-language daily based in London, published excerpts Tuesday. The excerpts were reprinted yesterday in the Palestinian daily Al Quds.
For two years, Palestinian leaders and the public have strongly endorsed the intefadeh, or uprising, and public debate has been minimal, despite heavy losses.
The fighting has put off any prospect of Palestinian independence in the near future, has left the economy in shambles and led to the reoccupation of most West Bank towns by Israeli troops, in retaliation for Palestinian attacks. Almost 2,000 Palestinians and more than 650 Israelis have been killed.
“What happened in these two years, as we see it now, is a complete destruction of everything we built,” Abbas said.
In Washington, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said he had limited information on Abbas’s remarks. But referring to the uprising, he said, “I believe it clearly was a mistake. It hasn’t brought the Palestinian people any closer to a state of their own or to peace.”
Abbas did not name militant groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
In violence yesterday, two Palestinians were shot dead by Israeli troops in the West Bank, and in the Gaza Strip, a Palestinian bomber blew up a car near an Israeli-Palestinian liaison office, killing himself, but causing no injuries to bystanders. [\quote]
my reason for posting this is that other posters have been on EG’s back because Israel has been “treating Palastinians like second class citizens”. The thing about this is that these 2nd class citizens themselves admit to a war campaign within the country that they supposedly should have citizenship rights too. There is very little to compare this to. I was thinking that if a segment of the American population (say Californians - that’s for you TG) decided to organize and conduct a terror campaign against America then they would be quickly wiped out, and i don’t see them having too many privileges with the ringleaders receiving the death sentance depending on the state that they are in, but then i decided that there were too many holes in this analogy . . . .
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I was thinking that if a segment of the American population (say Californians - that’s for you TG) decided to organize and conduct a terror campaign against America then they would be quickly wiped out, and i don’t see them having too many privileges with the ringleaders receiving the death sentance depending on the state that they are in, but then i decided that there were too many holes in this analogy . . . .
hahahaha… us Californians don’t give up that easily without a fight. :wink:
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Naw Californians couldn’t cede, they’d run out of power daily.
sorry to be a “reposter”, but i read this this morning:
But CC, we’re Moderators, we can do anything :)
Your quote demostrates quite a few of my points. First and foremost, the destruction of the Palestinian infrastructure. The hundreds of millions of dollars in aid every year that was spent by the Europeans and some Americans has gone to waste. Not because the Palestinians wasted the money, they put it to good use. Its wasted because the Israelis destroyed it. Yes, some of the buildings were being used by terrorists. But far more were probably just being used by Government officals, doing their Government work. Now, the Government cannot function because the officals cannot do their job.
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Also when Israel was attacked by Palastinians they would respond by levelling a building in retaliation. I recall a group of Israeli citizens getting killed in a terrorist attack. In retaliation they informed the Palastinians that they were going to level the police station. After sufficient time had passed to clear out the station some Israel 'choppers took it out. I’d suggest this is more humane than simply killing a bunch of Palastinians in retaliation . . . .
(yes, the case could be made that they are doing far more damage, but i disagree - one can always find some space for a new police building, but you can never replace the lives lost . . . . -
Today has been a horrible day for Israelis. A hotel owned by Jews in Kenya was attacked and 3 Israelis died. An El-Al, that’s Israeli airlines, plane was shot at with missiles while flying from Kenya to Israel and Palestinian gunmen killed at least 6 Israelis who went to elect in the primaries for the head of the Likud Party.
To address F_alk’s ocmment about the world not wanting to kill Jews anymore, forgive me for not beliving this, but I simply can’t, especially now. There were many timesi n Jewish History when anti-semitism appeared dead but re-arose from itself, and post-September 11th has been one of them. I’ll post for you some interesting quotes and articles so you can see my point.
Yanny - you seem either not to be reading what I post, or you are simply ignoring it and going back to the same point. When Yasser Arafat had less officers and officials than he did now but decided to truly crack down on terrorism, he did so successfully and it took Hamas and Islamic Jihad a year to recover. Your comment about Hamas gaining something more powerful than a bomb strapped to a chest is unrealistic. It’s the same reason Al-Qaeda would never drop a nuclear bomb on the US. The terrorists want to die for their country, not have their countries wiped out. Al-Qaeda saw how America retaliated for 5,000 killed in 9/11. If they were to kill say 200,000 in a nuclear attack, imagine America’s retaliation. There would not be an Arab country around anymore. The same thing with Israel. Israel wouldn’t sit idly by if they were to launch a nuclear attack on Israel. They would most likely expel quite a few of the Palestinians from Israel and destroy their homes. Such an attack would hurt them more than it would hurt Israel.
Now, F_alk, of course they are used to adapt to modern times. The reaso nthe students wanted to know if electricity is like fire is because one of the things that one is not allowed to do is to create fire on Shabbat, so the rabbinical authority had to analyze exactly what electricity is, go through the Talmud and her discussions to see if it falls under the category of something that is allowed or not. In the end, electricty was not allowed to be used on shabbat, along with other things such as driving a car.
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you see, i wondered about that whole “electricity” thing.
I thought the thing about the “shabbot” was that instead of working, this was to be a day of worship. Electricity and cars would, in theory, reduce the work of a God-honoring Jew and free up time to worship and rest, no?or am i missing the point here?
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Today has been a horrible day for Israelis. A hotel owned by Jews in Kenya was attacked and 3 Israelis died. An El-Al, that’s Israeli airlines, plane was shot at with missiles while flying from Kenya to Israel and Palestinian gunmen killed at least 6 Israelis who went to elect in the primaries for the head of the Likud Party.
Sadly, 8 Kenyans also died. Today’s attacks are evidence there are well organized terrorist groups behind attacks. And it seems they are based outside Israel.
To address F_alk’s ocmment about the world not wanting to kill Jews anymore, forgive me for not beliving this, but I simply can’t, especially now. There were many timesi n Jewish History when anti-semitism appeared dead but re-arose from itself, and post-September 11th has been one of them. I’ll post for you some interesting quotes and articles so you can see my point.
The Israelis could be Christian or Muslim for all I care. Their Religion is not what is fueling this conflict. This conflict is being fueled by hate and death, not piety.
Yanny - you seem either not to be reading what I post, or you are simply ignoring it and going back to the same point. When Yasser Arafat had less officers and officials than he did now but decided to truly crack down on terrorism, he did so successfully and it took Hamas and Islamic Jihad a year to recover.
Right now, Yassar Arafat has no infrastructure to do much. His communication assets are basically limited to a cell phone. His command and control assets are probably limited to a laptop and his cell phone. He cannot leave the West Bank, and every few months he gets a close look at an Israeli tank.
Your comment about Hamas gaining something more powerful than a bomb strapped to a chest is unrealistic. It’s the same reason Al-Qaeda would never drop a nuclear bomb on the US.
I have no doubt that if Al-Quaeda had the means, they wouldn’t hesitate to nuke NYC or DC. And thats a problem we have to face. I wouldn’t suspect a full blown nuke hitting Israel, but a dirty bomb could easily happen.
If they were to kill say 200,000 in a nuclear attack, imagine America’s retaliation. There would not be an Arab country around anymore.
No, we wouldn’t go around and destroy every Arab country. But if the same people were behind it as were behind 9/11, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran would all be flattened. But the other nations would probably strengthen their relationships with us. Now Israelis, you’d just nuke a Palestinian city in return. America, we aren’t as ready to use our Nuclear supply as Israelis (Cia said Israel is by far most likely to be the first nation to use Nuclear Weapons).
They would most likely expel quite a few of the Palestinians from Israel and destroy their homes. Such an attack would hurt them more than it would hurt Israel.
Exactly why Israel is such a problem. They are doing the same thing on a small scale after each and every terrorist attack. Terrorists kill 10 Israelis, Israel flattens a police station, or bulldozes a block of homes. And in doing so, Israel her grave ever deeper.
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Today has been a horrible day for Israelis. A hotel owned by Jews in Kenya was attacked and 3 Israelis died. An El-Al, that’s Israeli airlines, plane was shot at with missiles while flying from Kenya to Israel and Palestinian gunmen killed at least 6 Israelis who went to elect in the primaries for the head of the Likud Party.
Sadly, 8 Kenyans also died. Today’s attacks are evidence there are well organized terrorist groups behind attacks. And it seems they are based outside Israel.
that’s like saying that “it looks like the 9/11 attacks are based outside Afghanistan”. The order and the training could come from anywhere in the world - Alabama, Quebec, Chechnya, Israel. The fact that it happened in Kenya has little to do with where it is based.
To address F_alk’s ocmment about the world not wanting to kill Jews anymore, forgive me for not beliving this, but I simply can’t, especially now. There were many timesi n Jewish History when anti-semitism appeared dead but re-arose from itself, and post-September 11th has been one of them. I’ll post for you some interesting quotes and articles so you can see my point.
The Israelis could be Christian or Muslim for all I care. Their Religion is not what is fueling this conflict. This conflict is being fueled by hate and death, not piety.
I don’t think that’s EG’s implication. The Israelites are as much an ethno-cultural group as they are a race, as they are a religious group. Regardless, too many people have a hard-on for annhilating them. It would scare me too.
They would most likely expel quite a few of the Palestinians from Israel and destroy their homes. Such an attack would hurt them more than it would hurt Israel.
Exactly why Israel is such a problem. They are doing the same thing on a small scale after each and every terrorist attack. Terrorists kill 10 Israelis, Israel flattens a police station, or bulldozes a block of homes. And in doing so, Israel her grave ever deeper.
you know, i don’t see what you’re saying Yanny. In my mind by Israel not taking lives in exchange for lives lost, but by dropping a few buildings instead it seems that Israel is acting more humanely. I have friends who think that Israel execute a member of a suicide-bomber in exchange for everyone that bomber kills. Although i’m against murder, i can see the appeal - logical, and bound to work, no?
but not a Christian solution . . . not that they are looking for Christian solutions. . . . -
you know, i don’t see what you’re saying Yanny. In my mind by Israel not taking lives in exchange for lives lost, but by dropping a few buildings instead it seems that Israel is acting more humanely.
I agree but Israeli are killing more Palestinian than the opposite, AND are destroying infrastructure…
Also, even if it’s not a reason for palestinian to annihilate the jews, the jews have not legitimacy there, Zionists just chose to go to palestine, claiming it was “a land without people for a people without land”. Just like we had no legitimacy on Africa and America.
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Leave to Quebec to harbour terrorists. :lol:
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Now, F_alk, of course they are used to adapt to modern times. The reaso nthe students wanted to know if electricity is like fire is because one of the things that one is not allowed to do is to create fire on Shabbat, so the rabbinical authority had to analyze exactly what electricity is, go through the Talmud and her discussions to see if it falls under the category of something that is allowed or not. In the end, electricty was not allowed to be used on shabbat, along with other things such as driving a car.
But why is it that they didn’t want to understand it? By the logic these students used you have to die each shabbat. None of your nerves is allowed to work on Shabbat, as it is “creating fire”.
I guess that would better fit into a new thread.
For the other topic we taked about: The world did not allow a genocide in the Kosove, why should it allow one in Israel/Palestine? -
@F_alk:
Now, F_alk, of course they are used to adapt to modern times. The reaso nthe students wanted to know if electricity is like fire is because one of the things that one is not allowed to do is to create fire on Shabbat, so the rabbinical authority had to analyze exactly what electricity is, go through the Talmud and her discussions to see if it falls under the category of something that is allowed or not. In the end, electricty was not allowed to be used on shabbat, along with other things such as driving a car.
But why is it that they didn’t want to understand it? By the logic these students used you have to die each shabbat. None of your nerves is allowed to work on Shabbat, as it is “creating fire”.
I guess that would better fit into a new thread.
For the other topic we taked about: The world did not allow a genocide in the Kosove, why should it allow one in Israel/Palestine?There is no genocide occurring in Israel. I don’t call announcing the checks in the morning for the afternoon and then coming in and killing those who are trying to kill you genocide. Genocide would be coming in and purposelyu tragetting the civilians and killing as many as possible. If Israel wanted to do this, she wouldn’t send in her infantry. She’d use her IAF to wipe out the cities with no casualties.
About your comment F_alk, fristly you are jumping in and attacking what you dont understand. If you read the Shabbat tractate, which is quite big and would take quite a while, you’d see the analysis for all the 39 major categories of things that cannot be done on shabbat and how they’re categories have sub-categories. Your nerves don’t make fire. If they did, I doubt you’d be feeling too good thorugh the incomplete combustion and increase in Carbon, coot and Carbon Monoxide in your system. If it was complete compustion, then the burning oxygen would have to be very very hot, which wouldnt feel too good either. Fire also refers to the creation of a new fire. So for example, if you light a candle on the eve of Shabbat, you cannot touch it on Shabbat and it stays lit. A car uses sparks to create fire to move, which is most likely why it cannot be used on shabbat.
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You still did’nt anwser my question about the legitimacy of the jew in palestine, i am very curious (sorry).
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You still did’nt anwser my question about the legitimacy of the jew in palestine, i am very curious (sorry).
Which question would that be? If you post it here again, I’ll be glad to answer it.
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