How do subs work?

@Constantinople:

Krieghund you earlier said:

Attacking and defending subs may always submerge before any dice are rolled in a combat round, unless there is an opposing destroyer.

But the rules contradict that. It says specifically on p 30 that:
  “If both players have submarines, all the submarines get to fire a surprise strike before taking any casualties.”

I interpret that to mean that all the subs involved can not submerge but have to engage in the Surprise Strike.

The rules also say that “Anytime a sub would otherwise roll the die to attack or defend, it can submerge instead.”  The sentence you quote simply means that defending subs roll for Surprise Strike before casualties from the attacker’s Surprise Strike are removed, so they still fire even if they are casualties.

@Constantinople:

Furthermore,  if Surprise Strike is defined as an attack, as it is on p30, then how can defending subs engage in a Surprise Strike?

If a cruiser moves into a seazone where there is a sub, how can the sub conduct a Surprise Strike, an attack, on the Cruiser when it is the defending sub?

“Attack” was a poor choice of words.  “Fire” would have been better.  The rules clearly indicate that defending subs also get a Surprise Strike in that same paragraph.

@Constantinople:

Furthermore, if a legitimately attacking sub uses Surprise Strike against a cruiser it encounters, and chooses not to submerge, it can use it again against the cruiser?

Yes.  Surprise Strikes happen in every combat round.

@Constantinople:

Finally, if there is a DD in the sea zone, the Sub has to stay all combat rounds and can not submerge, and has no Surprise Strike ability; whether it is defending or attacking, that’s the bottom line?

Correct.  However, if the destroyer is sunk, the sub gains the ability to Surprise Strike or Submerge in the following combat round.

@Constantinople:

Krieghund you earlier posted:

The sequence is:

1. Attacking subs submerge (or not)
2. Defending subs submerge (or not)
3. Unsubmerged attacking subs fire
4. Unsubmerged defending subs fire
5. Casualties are removed
6. Attacking non-sub units fire
7. Defending non-sub units fire
8. Casualties are removed.

Where is the Surprise Strike option?

Steps 3 and 4.

Kreighund

I appreciate your responses and your patience.

I’ve got a 6 player game coming up on Black Friday and I want to be able to answer all the questions correctly and w/o frustration and w/o the flipping of pages.

So again my thanks for being “the answer guy.”

OK, I’ve re read all of the above and I hope I’ve got it:

all without a DD present:

If a UK sub enters a seazone containing a German sub, it can totally ignore the German sub, correct, regardless of the German sub being submerged or not submerged?  If UK ignores that German sub, then that turn is over and the German sub can not react, correct?  The UK sub can either submerge or non-submerge as it ignores the German sub?

If a UK sub enters a seazone containing a German sub, either submerged or non submerged, and it decides to Surprise Strike the German sub, then both subs get the Surprise Strike ability, correct? They execute it simultaneously?  Then if both survive, and if either one decides to continue with Surprise Strike it negates the ability of the other to submerge and save itself and they both continue simultaneously again?

@Constantinople:

Then if both survive, and if either one decides to continue with Surprise Strike it negates the ability of the other to submerge and save itself and they both continue simultaneously again?

dont think thats true because submerging happens before anyone can fire…

The sequence is:

1. Attacking subs submerge (or not)
2. Defending subs submerge (or not)
3. Unsubmerged attacking subs fire
4. Unsubmerged defending subs fire
5. Casualties are removed
6. Attacking non-sub units fire
7. Defending non-sub units fire
8. Casualties are removed.

i think the main thing that changed since revised (ok… lets say since LHTR), is that the attacker can chose to ignore subs, if they are alone in a seazone or only accompanied by transports.
apart from that, we have:
-) air units can only fire upon subs if they attack/defend together with a DD
-) subs can never hit air units.
-) also keep in mind that only DDs prevent subs from submerging and surprise striking. and also in combat rounds 2+, a DD needs to be present, if you want to cancel the enemy subs ability to submerge and surprise strike!
-) subs can move through hostile territories also during combat movement, if no enemy dd is in the zone that its moving through.

You’ve got it, Sondrax!  Also, if there is no enemy DD subs can move through and into hostile sea zones during noncombat movement as well.

Listen guys again:

I am only talking about a case where a sub encounters another sub. No DD and No Air units present!!

It is one on one.

OK, from what I know and from what you have said earlier both are entitled to a Surprise Strike on the other, without anypossible avoidance by either sub, just becz it is Surprise Strike. A target of SS can not avoid it!! That’s how I understand it.

Then becz of it’s very nature, after combat between 2 solitary subs must continue to the death becz neither sub can avoid Surprise Strike and therefore it must continue till one dies or both dies since it is done simultaneously.

If either one gets a Surprise Strike on the other, then neither sub can avoid the strike, by submerging, becz thats what a Surprise Strike does: it can not be avoided, hence the label: “Surprise.”

I mean if the 1st sub ignores the 2d sub, the 2d sub may SS against the 1st sub right? and then the SS continues in a vicious cyle till one dies.???

No, you don’t quite have it.  Subs can always submerge instead of firing unless there is an enemy DD present.  In your example, there are no DDs, so both subs are eligible to submerge.  Submerging is done instead of firing, before any dice are rolled.

In your example, the attacking sub can choose to submerge.  If it does, the battle is over, since there are no attacking units remaining.  If it doesn’t, the defending sub can choose to submerge.  If it does, the battle is over, since there are no defending units remaining.  If neither sub submerges, the attacking sub fires its surprise strike.  If it hits, the defending sub is moved behind the casualty line.  Either way, the defending sub then fires its surprise strike.  Casualties are then removed.  Since there are no non-sub units, the combat round is over.  If both subs survive, the next round begins and the same sequence of events occurs again.

I think what’s confusing you is the “Surprise Strike” label.  The “surprise” only really applies to non-subs and when you have a DD.  If you don’t have a DD, enemy subs can always submerge before any dice are rolled.

OK, I am almost there!  :-D

I think  :|

Lastly:  You said:
                If both subs survive, the next round begins and the  same sequence of events occurs again.

So by that you mean that it all begins over again and the 1st sub can submerge or not submerge, Surprise Strike or not again and the 2d sub decides too if it has to?

Yes, every combat round plays out in the same way.

K:  “I think what’s confusing you is the “Surprise Strike” label.  The “surprise” only really applies to non-subs and when you have a DD.”

Don’t you mean that “Surprise” only really applies when you don’t have a DD?

No, I meant that you can only surprise enemy subs when you do have a DD.  I apparently left a word out of my sentence.  It should have said “The ‘surprise’ only really applies to non-subs, and subs when you have a DD.”

If you have no DD, the enemy subs can submerge before your Surprise Strike.  If you have a DD, they can’t submerge, so not only can’t they escape your Surprise Strike, they don’t even get one so they don’t shoot back if they’re hit by yours.

Of course, if they have a DD, you can’t surprise anything.

I’m not sure if this was answered earlier but suppose:

4 ftrs vs. 2 subs, 1 destroyer, 1 cruiser.

Can the defender use the subs as fodder even though the attacker has no DD to see the subs?

No.  This battle is purely fighters versus destroyer and cruiser.

That’s what destroyers are for.  That and hunting subs.

Thanks.

Although, I do agree with Perry, b/c in this case it is to the Defenders adv to kill off the subs.

4 ftrs vs. 2 subs …

Then great, the defender is saved from automatically losing 2 subs BUT

6 ftrs, 2 bom vs. Any number of subs, trns, 1 dd, 1 ca, 1 bb

Yikes!

@Krieghund:

That’s what destroyers are for.  That and hunting subs.

But why buy a DD when your air can eliminate the heavy hitters at roughly the same IPC price.

4 ftrs = 2 dd, 2 ca

And you have a pip adv in 12 to 10.

I’ll sweep up the subs later (with 1 dd and my left over air), once the trns and capital ships are gone.

Edit:

My thought is 8 ipc for a 2/2 fodder unit might be a lot.

In the earlier editions an 8 ipc trn for fodder was worth it b/c transports are always useful.

Here, I’m just not sure if I buy a lot of DDs.  Certainly having 1 around is necessary but after that might as well bite the bullet and spend 12 and get the bombardment with a cruiser.

Or just spend 10 on ftrs and 12 on bombers.

I guess that means that your new (cheaper) fleets are going to have to be balanced.  You’ll need DDs for protection against subs and for fodder, and you’ll need carriers for protection against air attack.  Round that out with a battleship or cruiser or two and you’ve got a nice, effective task force.

Balance shmalance!  :-D