AAE Scenario: Europe 1939 (France, USA, Germany, Britain, USSR, Italy)

Well, could we play  the “normaol”/“original” rules.
That way theres no confusion.  :-)

the only thing I would like to add, is that the only country that can attake the pink terirories is the SU (Hitler-Stalin Nonagression Act) Even if Hitler did blitz his way into east poland, he would have had to back out due to the act.

He, hey Thrawn, that means that if you play as all the allies then you’ll technically have to invade your own terirori.  :lol:

that not a very normal way to spell that word.  :wink: okay you can stay with you rules. i thought it was simple just let finland have the abilty to fight the ussr like it did. it would slow down a massive militry build up in moscow.

here is the link http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=10042.msg216585#new

Here are some of my suggestions at changing the setup when someone plays this scenerio next time.
1. Italy should have battleship no subs-There biggest contribution was there navy
2. Netherlands Belgium should have 2 Inf.-They had armies too
3. Maybe cut back Yougoslavia to 3 or 2inf. Germans had no problem occupying the country
4. Give the UK another destroyer or 2-Seems extremely weak. Maybe One off of Canada
5. Give US the start off like from the chart in AAE
6. Delayed entranced of Italy,Bulgaria,Rumania,Hungary,Finland-Italy should not join the axis until Poland,Netherlands-Belgium,And eastern France are conquered. The rest joins with free armies after Denmark,Yougoslavia, Greece, Crete, France, and Norway are conquered.
7.Surprise Attack For Axis attacks SU. All units defend on a 1 for the first combat move against them.
like Pacific first move

News report. - mid to late april 1940.
Germany and Italy are at war with the queendom and the republic of france. On the western front the magiot line as been pulled back just east of Paris. trenchs have been dug at a last defence line aroung the Sine river and its tributaries. ot resembles  the great war with massive german and french armies starring at each other, each too afraid to make a move. the italians control the port cities of Marseille and tolun with much of the southern sectors.  the french airforce has been recently reduced to oblivion when after being postiton in algerra try to liberate the mederterrian from italian hands. Canada the the UK are slowly build up but lack naval domonice. If Paris fall will britian be able to liberate them. the Britsh are all ready digging in with a large force in egypt.( don’t they know trenchs don’t really work in the sand guess italy will have to give them an a** whopping)  with out this vital oil transporation will be greatly reduced wit the italians staring greedily at them from libya.

in thw east front everything is quiet and a slow build up is occuring but WHERE is america?

News Report june 1940(ed 2)-  Italy has called off the bombing of Paris to wipe out all defenders in Egypt. looks like the Churchill tanks will be tugged by horses into battle.  italy is reigning supreme in the Medeterrian while Britain is slowly building they’re navy back up in the frigid ice caps but is still too weak to defeat Germany.  no change in the western front except the German army is growing massively compared to the French snail.  The Luffawatte bombers have mistaken Scottish sheep farms for London cities but both the RAF and the French air force have been lost due to  failed counterattacks against the elite axis navies. all is quiet on the eastern front except there as been MIG-15’s spotted in the Zagaros Mountains.  while they be trying to tear down Italian tank columns if advanced upon or are they a political message to say Stalin is preparing for war? either way Mussonlni who has remanimed himself Emperor Septembus( to symbolize the succeeding roman Empire) has threaten Stalin saying if they don’t back down italy won’t stop untill they reach moscow. Battleplans for a  Massive pincer blitz from Germany and Italy are being Formed to bring Moscow under siege by EARLY fall.  THIS IS THE FATE OF STALIN’s INFERIOR NATION IF HE Does NOT BACK OFF NOW!.  It looks bleak for France and the UK. they need american aid now and quickly. will Rrussia remain neutral with rising tensions between the emperor-fuhor alliance and the premir? can they repulse any attack? all this told on the next edition of the world news.

I disagree with some of your points. The axis minor powers should have a delayed entranced to reflect history. If not you mine as well have America in the war right away too. Italy did not join with the Germans until it was clear Germany was going to defeat everyone else. He only joined the fight at the very end of the Battle of France.

#5 you misunderstood me. I meant the USA you start with some units like AAE chart has them having or maybe a little less. Yougoslavia did not have a more poweful army than the US.

In my experience the UK fleet can mostly be destroyed Axis turn 1 and very hard to rebuild with uboats on the convoys. Germany at no point could come close to the UK’s navy.

Hopefully, someone else can jump in here without being executed on the spot.  First, some general comments on the idea of the scenario, and then some responses to comment made.

The scenario idea is pretty close to one that I am working up to include Italy in the European game, but I am assuming the Fall of France has occured and Italy is then in the war.  However, I am going to allow the Italian player to change sides if he/she can be persuaded to by the Allies, and also have both an Axis Italian player and an Allied Italian player, as actually occured.  I figure that the difference in color between the Japanese units in A&A Pacific and the new A&A game will make that possible.  I am going to increase the British Navy a fair bit, like two more battleships, two carriers with one fighter each, probably 3 destroyers, and two subs, with some of the ships in the Mediterranean.  The US and SU will not be in to start with, but the US will be supporting UK with its convoy IPCs as a minimum, and also a really modified form of Lend-Lease that more accurately represents the program.  If German subs interdict the US convoys, the US is in the war.  Once the US is in the war, its IPC count doubles.  The Italians get a battleship, a couple of destroyers, and probably two subs, and 2 or 3 transports, as units will need to be transported to Africa.  Germany will get a battleship on turn 2 or 3 as a bonus unit.  The US gets a bigger Atlantic Fleet.  Iceland is occupied by Britain, and the troops there defend at 3.

I am not worried about the Italian battleship doing excessive damage as I use a different rule for ships and shore bombardment that the game rules. Basically, no infantry can be killed by naval bombardment, but the naval guns can support an infantry attack like artillery, without the independent roll.  The same thing applies to aircraft.  They cannot kill infantry, but only support ground unit attacks.  Naval bombardment and aircraft can kill tank and artillery units.  This more accurately represents what happened.  I am still working on all of the other changes I plan on making.

Now, some responses to comments made here.

1.  Not sure where Eschaton gets the idea that the Italians attacked Yugoslavia.  They took over Albania in the spring of 1939, and attacked Greece in the fall of 1940.  The UK diverted some of its very small Mid East assets to help the Greeks.  The Italians never attacked Yugoslavia.  The Germans had an easy time due to dissension within Yugoslavia between the Croats and the Serbs, one reason why they still hate each other.

2.  With respect to fighters and the Stuka.  I agree that it is weird for the Germans to use a Stuka as their fighter.  The Bf109 and the Messerschmidt 109 are the same aircraft.  The only other option for the Germans would be the Focke-Wulf 190.  For the US, if you want a good ground support fighter, use either the P-47 Thunderbolt, or the P-51.  For the British, use the Spitfire, as that also was used as a naval fighter.  For the Russians, use the Yak 3 or Yak 9, as they already do.  The Japanese already are using the Zeke.

3.  As for the UK already being powerful enough, with 10 subs, the German player should be able to continue to control the convoy routes for quite a while, especially if the SU is not in the game yet.  Without the convoy supplies, Britain is in severe straits. The Royal Air Force is also pretty small in the normal game rules.

4.  Considering that Corsica is part of France, and Sardinia is part of Italy, I would hope that they would be considered as two separate islands.  Sardinia was a major Italian airbase and naval base facility.  Aircraft from there figured prominently in the Malta convoy battles.

5.  In all of the Axis and Allies games, the US is severely unpowered economically.  This is done mainly for game balance, as otherwise, in any kind of a long game, the Axis get smashed.  Since I will be using this as a teaching device, I am less worried about game balance, and more concerned about historical accuracy.  I want the Axis to be smashed if the Allies cooperate and play well.

If it is okay with Eschaton, I will copy his rules and see how they work.  If there is sufficient interest, I will post my modification on the forum as well.

WIth all this talk of history…I must add…its hard to be historical.
AAE shouldn’t be using the straight AA rules to begin with. AAE territories are smaller.

If having the right forces is important to me I would alter the income/construction or the unit movement.
Say make units costs more (to make each turn represent less time) or blend combat cycle with unit movement points.

As for giving Italy Battleship is too unbalancing for amphibious assault on Africa,
a simple house rule will fix that. Battleship no longer destroy units, they give +1 to infantry 1-to-1 like artillery.

bitian and france are at war with germany.
Paris falls: Italy enters the war and 1 british destroyer is placed in the us convoy section.
Britian FAlls ussr enters the war( ussr defend on a -1 for all units before it enters the war)
us enters the war when  2 capitals are attacked.( note don’t have to be taken. this is because the us entered around the same time as the battle of Moscow)

Realistic alternate reality games are cool.

You gotta have a good victory condition system with it though.

Italy would have historically had a very easier time taking the med but it was only for the british attack on toronto which sank a large portion of their surface fleet.  ironically it was this attack which inspired the japanese (namely yamomoto) to try pearl harbor raid.  In order to reflect mini sub options, my friends and I have it as a tech, whereas a country may use an infantry once per turn to try and sink enemy ship adjacent to where the infantry.  On a roll of 1, the ship is hit.  We have had some modifications to the rule, such as in pacific, its only if the ship is in a port zone, or if the attacker gets to choose the casualty etc.  but its a good way to refect the mini-sub option.

I like the Industrial Center in Egypt, as that basically simulates the gradual build up of British troops via convoys around Africa.  I will be working on a scenario assuming that France has fallen and the US and USSR are still neutral, but with enough irritants between the US and Germany that Germany will eventually attack the US.

I have played a version where any land units in the US cost -1 to build and naval and air units -2.  This better reflects the massive quanitites of material the US created and places more emphasis to build and transport units, making the war in the mid-atlantic that much more vital.

Eschaton we have an interesting game going on from your scenerio in “Games in Progress” forum under Admiral_Thrawn(Allies) Vs. Gewher and Cyan(Axis) if you want to check it out. This is probably playing out a little differently than usual. France surviving into the 7th round and counting.

We have a problem with rules and I want to hear what other people think. I’ll set it up. Me as the Soviet Union has a sub in the South Atlantic and and Transport in the Azores sea. The British have a Destroyer,sub,and transport in the Central Atlantic. It is Italy’s turn and he has 1Destroyer,1sub,and 4transports in the strait of Gibraltar. The SU and the Axis are not at war. In this scenerios rules it says and I quote:“The Soviet Union must remain at peace until Germany or Italy initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union. Then it must declare war against both of these countries and no others.” Thats all it says about how the SU becomes at war with the Axis. Can the Itialians move there fleet through the Russian fleet to get to the british without declaring war on the SU? I say no. When in A&A is it not “initiating hostilites” to put your war ships into the same sea zone as the opponent?

This how I responded to the German players claim that the Italians could move through the Russians to get to the British.

I can kinda of see where you are coming from but putting naval units in the same sea zone as mine seems to be starting hostilites. Let me put it this way. I as the Soviet Union would consider it an act of war if you bring your naval vessels anywhere near mine. I.E. in the same sea zone.

So what does everyone else think? Do you think I am right or wrong?

@Admiral_Thrawn:

Eschaton we have an interesting game going on from your scenerio in “Games in Progress” forum under Admiral_Thrawn(Allies) Vs. Gewher and Cyan(Axis) if you want to check it out. This is probably playing out a little differently than usual. France surviving into the 7th round and counting.

You’ll fall soon enough, all apart of my plan  :wink:  :evil:

As for the soviet fleet, your actualy the one making hostilities against the Axis by blokaading the med.

Me blockading the med. is no different then me putting troops into the middleast. It is the best interest of the Soviet People to contain the Axis.