@SS-GEN
Your welcome :)
AAE Scenario: Europe 1939 (France, USA, Germany, Britain, USSR, Italy)
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bitian and france are at war with germany.
Paris falls: Italy enters the war and 1 british destroyer is placed in the us convoy section.
Britian FAlls ussr enters the war( ussr defend on a -1 for all units before it enters the war)
us enters the war when 2 capitals are attacked.( note don’t have to be taken. this is because the us entered around the same time as the battle of Moscow) -
Realistic alternate reality games are cool.
You gotta have a good victory condition system with it though.
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Italy would have historically had a very easier time taking the med but it was only for the british attack on toronto which sank a large portion of their surface fleet. ironically it was this attack which inspired the japanese (namely yamomoto) to try pearl harbor raid. In order to reflect mini sub options, my friends and I have it as a tech, whereas a country may use an infantry once per turn to try and sink enemy ship adjacent to where the infantry. On a roll of 1, the ship is hit. We have had some modifications to the rule, such as in pacific, its only if the ship is in a port zone, or if the attacker gets to choose the casualty etc. but its a good way to refect the mini-sub option.
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First let me preface all of this by saying that your comments have led me to offer a modified variant of the scenario which I will present below.
@ Admiral Thrawn: On the point of whether or not Italy should join at a set date, I must maintain that I think this is a bad idea. Italy was in the war before the USA was, and I believe that it would be too hard for me to get the gameplay mechanics right if Italy just sat around until France fell. As it is, a good Italian player might not attack his or her first turn anyway, building up forces for a more powerful strike in Africa. At the end of considerations, I have decided to leave Italy as is.
And while it is true, as you pointed out, that the USA had a larger army than Yugoslavia, I don’t believe it was really mobilized for war at the time, and therefore America’s start from scratch (aside from a lack of naval forces) I find to be generally close enough to the reality of the situation. Moreoever, it just helps the scenario play better.
@ timerover51: After giving myself a good history lesson, I learned that you are right about Yugoslavia. In the new version of my scenario, however, I am still giving Yugoslavia 2 infantry to reflect the Communist resistance under Tito as best I can without adding complicated resistance rules. Greece and Poland are defended differently, as well.
As for the issue of the UK’s power, I have found through playing the game that the initial German dominance of the Atlantic is momentary and limited in its effect, especially once the USA gets in the game. In all reality, I might yet increase the size of the German navy or shift things around. For now, however, everything appears balanced to me. If you disagree, I suggest you play the scenario according to the rules given here. I think you will decide differently in the end. Realistically, I think that if there is any unbalance in this scenario, it rests in favor of the Allies. The idea of the Axis actually taking Moscow, much less Britain or the USA, seems very difficult at best, especially when considering Lend-lease and several other allied options that I have delineated earlier in this thread.
OK, now here are the tweaked rules - feel free to contrast and compare with the original on the first page:
Axis & Allies Europe: 1939
VICTORY CONDITIONS: Control two enemy capitals (capitals are comprised of Moscow, Germany, Northern Italy, United Kingdom and United States) for one turn.
There are 5 playing nations: Soviet Union, Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom (and minor allied and neutral countries), France/United States. Italy is played using Japanese pieces from one of the other game boards, and France/United States uses United States pieces.
Turn Order: Germany, Soviet Union, Italy, the United Kingdom, and France/United States.
SPECIAL RULES:
Additional IPCs on Turn 1: Germany starts with 12 IPCs to spend on its first turn.
Italy starts with an extra 6 IPCs to spend on its first turn.
UK and France start with an extra 10 IPCs to spend between the two of them.
NEW UNITS MAY ONLY BE PLACED IN THEIR PLAYER’S INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX OR ADJACENT SEA SQUARE. THIS NEGATES THE PACT OF STEEL RULE.Soviet Union:
The Soviet Union must remain at peace until Germany or Italy initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union. Then it must declare war against both of these countries and no others.
Soviet convoy does not become active until Germany or Italy attacks the USSR.
The Soviet Union may only use half of their income, rounding up, until Italy or Germany initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union may invade any of the pink territories not owned by the Axis and gain plunder from them as Germany would. Note: once one side has gained plunder from a territory, no other country may gain plunder from that same territory.
France/United States:
U.S. convoys become active when the USA enters the war (i.e. France falls).
Maginot Line: French infantry in Eastern France or Vichy France defend on a 3 if attacked from Germany or Northern Italy, respectively.
The two British Convoys valued at 3 IPCs are French; if France falls they become British. If they have been occupied by Axis naval units, they will still need to be reoccupied by Allied powers.
Mid-East:
The total IPC value of the yellow Mid-East territories is counted to the end of each round. This money is divided between the French and British immediately for use on their next turn (in a fashion similar to British convoys in A&A Pacific).
The Industrial Complex in Egypt may only deploy 1 British unit per turn.
Vichy France:
If France falls to the Axis, French IPCs are claimed by the conquering player and any French land or air units in Vichy France or North Africa immediately become German (they may not move until the following turn). Any remaining French land or air units in Allied territories become British. French naval units are scuttled (removed from play). The French convoys become British (if under Axis control at the time, they must be liberated first). From this point forward the French player is now the United States; nothing special happens if France is liberated.
Plunder:
If the Axis conquer any of the minor allied powers or neutral British-occupied territories (all of which are originally under the jurisdiction of the British player), that Axis country immediately gains “plunder” from the bank equal to twice the IPC value of the territory conquered to spend on their following turn (territories with no IPC value yield a plunder of 1). This only works the first time a territory of this nature is conquered.
Pact of Steel:
Axis powers can deploy units using each other’s Industrial Complexes.
Lend-Lease:
Allied units in Red territories can be absorbed by the Soviet Union during the Soviet’s purchase phase.
Other Rules:
Strategic Bombing raids can only destroy up to the IPC value of the territory in which they are conducting the raid.
Fighters cost 10, Carriers 16. Tanks defend on a 3.
Destroyers can bombard.
The United States gets an industrial complex. No new ones can be built.
Allied units may not enter Soviet territory until the Axis initiates hostilities against the Soviets.
If France falls, all Mid-East IPCs go to the UK by default. They may not be given to the United States.
The British marker is used on the side of the IPC chart to keep track of Mid-East territories.
UNIT PLACEMENT
GERMANY: 13 IPCs
Germany: 8 infantry, 4 tanks, 2 artillery, 2 fighters, 1 bomber, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Austria: 2 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery.
Czechoslovakia: 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter.
Hungary: 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery, 1 fighter.
Finland: 2 infantry.
Baltic Sea: 1 battleship, 1 destroyer.
Danish Sea: 1 transport, 1 sub.
Denmark Strait: 2 subs.
Barents Sea: 2 subs.
Mid-Atlantic: 2 subs.
South Atlantic: 2 subs.
Iraq: 1 infantry.SOVIET UNION: 18 IPCs
Moscow: 1 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Leningrad: 1 infantry, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Stalingrad: 1 infantry, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Archangel: 1 infantry, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Siberia: 1 infantry, 1 tank.
Turkestan: 1 infantry.
Caucasus: 1 infantry.
Ukraine SSR: 1 infantry.
Belorussia: 1 infantry.
Russia: 1 infantry.
Karelia: 1 infantry.
White Sea: 1 transport, 1 sub.ITALY: 9 IPCs
Northern Italy: 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Southern Italy: 2 infantry, 1 tank.
Libya: 2 infantry.
Sicily: 1 fighter.
Rumania: 2 infantry.
Bulgaria: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
Central Mediterranean: 1 sub, 1 battleship.
Tyrrhenian Sea: 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
(Sardinia unoccupied).UNITED KINGDOM: 19 IPCs
United Kingdom: 2 infantry, 1 tank, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Canada: 1 tank, 1 Industrial Complex.
Malta: 1 fighter.
Atlantic: 1 battleship, 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
Celtic Sea: 1 transport.
English Channel: 1 destroyer.
North Sea: 1 sub.
Davis Straight: 1 transport.
Straight of Gibraltar: 1 battleship.
Eastern Mediterranean: 1 destroyer, 2 transports.
(Gibraltar and Iceland unoccupied; 2 convoys worth 5 IPCs).
Mid-East: (see special rules for Mid-East income).
Egypt: 3 infantry, 1 tank, 1 Industrial Complex* (see special rules)
Trans-Jordan: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
(Syria, Iran, and Palestine unoccupied)
Neutral and Minor Allies: (do not contribute to UK income)
Poland: 4 infantry, 1 artillery.
East Poland: 1 infantry.
Yugoslavia: 2 infantry.
Greece: 3 infantry, 1 artillery.
Crete: 1 infantry.
Denmark: 1 infantry.
Norway: 1 infantry.
(Baltic States, Vyborg, and Bessarabia unoccupied).FRANCE: 17 IPCs
France: 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 Industrial Complex, 1 AA gun.
Eastern France: 1 Tank, 3 infantry, 1 artillery.
Vichy France: 2 infantry.
Tunisia: 1 infantry, 1 artillery.
Morocco: 1 infantry.
Bay of Biscay: 1 transport, 1 sub.
Western Mediterranean: 1 destroyer, 1 transport.
(Corsica, Netherlands-Belgium, and Algeria are unoccupied; 2 convoys worth 3 IPCs). -
I like the Industrial Center in Egypt, as that basically simulates the gradual build up of British troops via convoys around Africa. I will be working on a scenario assuming that France has fallen and the US and USSR are still neutral, but with enough irritants between the US and Germany that Germany will eventually attack the US.
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I have played a version where any land units in the US cost -1 to build and naval and air units -2. This better reflects the massive quanitites of material the US created and places more emphasis to build and transport units, making the war in the mid-atlantic that much more vital.
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Eschaton we have an interesting game going on from your scenerio in “Games in Progress” forum under Admiral_Thrawn(Allies) Vs. Gewher and Cyan(Axis) if you want to check it out. This is probably playing out a little differently than usual. France surviving into the 7th round and counting.
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We have a problem with rules and I want to hear what other people think. I’ll set it up. Me as the Soviet Union has a sub in the South Atlantic and and Transport in the Azores sea. The British have a Destroyer,sub,and transport in the Central Atlantic. It is Italy’s turn and he has 1Destroyer,1sub,and 4transports in the strait of Gibraltar. The SU and the Axis are not at war. In this scenerios rules it says and I quote:“The Soviet Union must remain at peace until Germany or Italy initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union. Then it must declare war against both of these countries and no others.” Thats all it says about how the SU becomes at war with the Axis. Can the Itialians move there fleet through the Russian fleet to get to the british without declaring war on the SU? I say no. When in A&A is it not “initiating hostilites” to put your war ships into the same sea zone as the opponent?
This how I responded to the German players claim that the Italians could move through the Russians to get to the British.
I can kinda of see where you are coming from but putting naval units in the same sea zone as mine seems to be starting hostilites. Let me put it this way. I as the Soviet Union would consider it an act of war if you bring your naval vessels anywhere near mine. I.E. in the same sea zone.
So what does everyone else think? Do you think I am right or wrong?
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Eschaton we have an interesting game going on from your scenerio in “Games in Progress” forum under Admiral_Thrawn(Allies) Vs. Gewher and Cyan(Axis) if you want to check it out. This is probably playing out a little differently than usual. France surviving into the 7th round and counting.
You’ll fall soon enough, all apart of my plan :wink: :evil:
As for the soviet fleet, your actualy the one making hostilities against the Axis by blokaading the med.
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Me blockading the med. is no different then me putting troops into the middleast. It is the best interest of the Soviet People to contain the Axis.
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I wounder if there is anyway of influinceing spain to come over to the axis, just like the allied and axis versions of Italy.
Mabye somehow split the teritorie of spain into portugal, madrid, and northern spain?
On that, how would you influence a country, give up a certain amount of IC or something? -
Maybe it could be like tech. Pay 5 IPC and roll a die to see if Spain joins.
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Gotta go be back in a couple hours.
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Eschaton we have an interesting game going on from your scenerio in “Games in Progress” forum under Admiral_Thrawn(Allies) Vs. Gewher and Cyan(Axis) if you want to check it out. This is probably playing out a little differently than usual. France surviving into the 7th round and counting.
yeah i’ve been posting the world news in hear too so people could follow.
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We have a problem with rules and I want to hear what other people think. I’ll set it up. Me as the Soviet Union has a sub in the South Atlantic and and Transport in the Azores sea. The British have a Destroyer,sub,and transport in the Central Atlantic. It is Italy’s turn and he has 1Destroyer,1sub,and 4transports in the strait of Gibraltar. The SU and the Axis are not at war. In this scenerios rules it says and I quote:“The Soviet Union must remain at peace until Germany or Italy initiates hostilities against the Soviet Union. Then it must declare war against both of these countries and no others.” Thats all it says about how the SU becomes at war with the Axis. Can the Itialians move there fleet through the Russian fleet to get to the british without declaring war on the SU? I say no. When in A&A is it not “initiating hostilites” to put your war ships into the same sea zone as the opponent?
This how I responded to the German players claim that the Italians could move through the Russians to get to the British.
I can kinda of see where you are coming from but putting naval units in the same sea zone as mine seems to be starting hostilites. Let me put it this way. I as the Soviet Union would consider it an act of war if you bring your naval vessels anywhere near mine. I.E. in the same sea zone.
So what does everyone else think? Do you think I am right or wrong?
With all do respect, Admiral, I would have to say you are wrong. You are not in the war at present and therefore are a neutral nation. Under the International Law of the time, a warship of a belligerent nation could enter neutral waters or a visit a neutral port for a period of 24 hours without being subject to internment or seizure. Neither the entering of national waters or a port was viewed as an act of war. A historical case in point was that the Russians received Lend-Lease supplies carreid by Russian ships to the port of Vladivostok throughout the war, unhindered by the Japanese who territorial waters they were crossing, and obviously they were sailing in combat zones. The US Coast Guard cutter Modoc was for a while tailing the Bismarck in the Greenland Sea area, without the Germans considering it an act of war. Unless the Italian player attacks you, he can freely move his ships through the sea zones occupied by your vessels, just as you could freely move ships through sea zones occupied by his vessels. The British allowed Italian merchant ships and naval vessels to pass through the Suez Canal up to the time of Italy declaring war.
As for Gewehr trying to get Spain involved, one factor in Spain’s staying out of the war, at least to an extent, was the fact that the US guaranteed grain shipments of 700,000 tons a year to Spain if it stayed neutral. As Spain was recovering from the destruction of the Spanish Civil War, it was really in no shape to fight, and the grain helped Franco feed the populace. Food is a very good bribe. I say to an extent, as a Spanish division served on the Russian front fighting the Russians, althought there is good reason to believe that Franco staffed the division with anyone he regarded as a potential toublemaker within the Falangist Party, and devoutly hoped that they would not come back. Most of them did not. The Italians also operated an underwater sabotage force from an Italian freighter in Algeciras, attacking merchant ships in Gibralter harbor with limpet mines attached to their hulls. It seems reasonable to assume that the Spanish were not entirely in the dark about the activities. In some respect it worked to the benefit of both sides that Spain stay neutral. I would argue for game purposes that Spain not be in the game, as it took quite a while to recover from the Spanish Civil War.
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France can indeed be POWERFUL if the British and the French are ready to commit to its defense. This is especially true if the Germans don’t do all that they can to crush France on the first turn if it looks like the Allies are going this route. I don’t find this particularly ahistorical, as the British and French, if they had had the will, COULD have had larger and better-trained armies ready. The bocage would have become as devastating for the Germans as it was for the Americans in 1944.
Now as for the rules regarding the Russian navy. I will keep things simple in the interest of keeping the game simple. The rule shall be that Axis ships moving into a sea zone occupied by Russian vessels will be considered to be opening hostilities between Russia and the Axis. However, submarines may still pass under neutral vessels without incident so long as a neutral or Allied destroyer does not also exist in this sea zone, as per normal game rules. I have made it this way in order to avoid the problem of an event in which Axis vessels exist in the same sea square with Russian vessels at the time that the Axis makes war on Russia. Moreover, I justify this historically (if somewhat weakly) by saying that Axis ships meeting any craft equipped to defend itself in international waters would likely have been fired upon, as the US merchant marine did - the reason being that German vessels especially were given a generally free reign of targets in the Atlantic, insofar as I know.
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right now its the summer of 42. so the same as AAR. but the germans have complete naval contole, italy is fairly large and Us has alot of planes. Uk is on the brink of callospe an SU is still at peace.( more like trying ot everything possible so they get invaded) and each side owns half the middle east.
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And thus the benefit of NOT declaring war on the Soviet Union is demonstrated.
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I used the rules that you started your from once. I felt the UK was too powerful.
Im playing a rules set right now based partially off of these rules, and off of another set I found that eliminates IPCs and instead has resource chips that generate in one area and must be moved to a factory to be converted to units. I playtested my original ideas (with europe and japan) and now Im working out the kinks and converting things over to the resource system. Im also developing a new diplomacy system to improve on my older one.
Somebody help me out:
Why would Spain join the axis?
Why would Turkey join the axis?
If Saudi Arabia were to get involved, who would they fight for and why?
What made Bulgaria join the axis?
……Rumania?
…Hungary?The final thing Im working out kinks in is build-up for pre-entry. I need to find a good rate that italy / russia / US build up at before they start fightng. Im considering going extreme and having there be a build-up for india and australia too, but Im not sure what units they would start with and such. Any suggestions?
I shouldve probably made this another topic instead of posting here, hahaha.
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France can indeed be POWERFUL if the British and the French are ready to commit to its defense. This is especially true if the Germans don’t do all that they can to crush France on the first turn if it looks like the Allies are going this route. I don’t find this particularly ahistorical, as the British and French, if they had had the will, COULD have had larger and better-trained armies ready. The bocage would have become as devastating for the Germans as it was for the Americans in 1944.
The French army in 1940 was both bigger and better equipped than the German. The Char B1 tank was superior to the German panzers, and with Belgian and UK forces the Germans were significantly outnumbered.
Superior tactics and motivation accounts for the German victory, something which makes it very difficult to reproduce the war before 1941 in Axis and Allies terms. Usually this leads to designers handicapping France artificially to the extent that it cannot survive whatever it does, pretty much destroying the whole point of starting in 1939. We cannot create a game starting in '39 or '40 which both gives many alternative playouts while retaining something recognisable as World War II, unless it means railroading events to the extent of the contrived rules clauses you find in games such as World at War.
Do you allow the German’s to use “Blitzkreig” tactics but not the French, simply because the French hadn’t though of using them?
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