We should not attack Iraq

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept - Paul (an apostle) cautions Christians to not be “unequally yoked” likening the relationship between a Christian and a nonChristian to the relationship between two oxen who should not be yoked together. I do not think that FinsterniS or F_alk would understand this concept as when marriage requires an equal partnership with respect to spiritual/religious beliefs - which when they are not similar it may create an imbalanced environment for a family that already has many forces acting against it.
I could not marry a non-Christian. It simply would not work. “Daddy, why does Mommy not go to Church” is simply not a question i want to answer. I don’t want to marry someone identical to me in terms of beliefs etc., but i want to be able to grow in The Lord with my partner.
I realize that i sound quite silly and “exclusive” in this regard, so i will understand if you guys think i’m nuts. At the same time, I don’t think that my wife would understand my desire to be devoted to both her and God unless she is devoted to both me and God.
There are verses in Proverbs, i think too, to reinforce this for Jews.

@cystic:

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept - Paul (an apostle) cautions Christians to not be “unequally yoked” likening the relationship between a Christian and a nonChristian to the relationship between two oxen who should not be yoked together.

I understand CC, but we don’t choose love, like the women i’m with now; i love her before i knew she was an Atheist.

Also remember i was as christian as you are, i perfectly know what it is to “feel” and “speak” to the lord as i understand what you feel about marriage.

Of course I didn’t convince you. How do you expect me to convince you of such a big and broad topic without any research material? It’s a very hard thing to explain, and like I said beofre, I still havent explained it properly. You are assuming that the Chosen People means that Jews think that they are right and everyone else is wrong and that they will all suffer. But that is not true. THe concept is much different than that. I’ll post some books for research if you are interested.

Yes i would like…more neutral book if you can, written by non-jew sociologist. Anyway if you don’t find i am sure i will…

But when i say i think it is arrogant, it is just like Christianism, they think they are different, i never said Judaism was racist, i don’t have enough information to make such statement…

BTW FinsterniS, I ate a French dish (German really) from around the area of Strassbourg and I can’t remember its name. It’s made with Sauerkraut, different kinds of meat and vegetables.

Sauerkraut mean choucroute by the way… it was maybe a choucroute garni a l’alsacienne ? Alsace is the region where Strasbourg is. A nice place… a little too hot for me, but it’s nice, close to germany from a geographic and cultural point of view…

@FinsterniS:

@cystic:

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept - Paul (an apostle) cautions Christians to not be “unequally yoked” likening the relationship between a Christian and a nonChristian to the relationship between two oxen who should not be yoked together.

I understand CC, but we don’t choose love, like the women i’m with now; i love her before i knew she was an Atheist.

ahhh love.
what a fun concept. What a topic for a billion forums.
can we manipulate love? Does it actually mean something to “be in love”? How solid is the idea of love once a seed implanted into our minds.
I think i’ve made myself love women before and stop loving women, but some might say that i always did or never did love them (respectively).
weird.

@cystic:

w.r.t. the whole marriage concept -
…
I do not think that FinsterniS or F_alk would understand this concept as when marriage requires an equal partnership with respect to spiritual/religious beliefs - which when they are not similar it may create an imbalanced environment for a family that already has many forces acting against it.

It really depends on the degree of each’s faith. I think an agnostic could go pretty well with most moderately faithful partners. Two fundamentalists of different faiths is impossible…. (another reason not to follow a faith to strongly, it reduces the number of people you can live with).
The question is the impact of the faith on your daily life. I don’t mind people being vegetarian, so i don’t mind ppl who don’t eat beef or pork … or anything that has not that much impact on my life.

I could not marry a non-Christian. It simply would not work. “Daddy, why does Mommy not go to Church” is simply not a question i want to answer.

Why not? I mean, that is a question of a thinking child, that’s about the most interesting and challenging for me that i can think of…. Your child might not be able to decide from the start (just as EG said, but i think that that’s a very good thing!), but it will not be indoctrinated, it is her/his free will to join one of the religions or not. That is a much stronger decision than just following one thing for your whole life and swallowing their propaganda the whole time. You learn to see two sides of a story, to think for yourself and to decide for yourself… that is wonderful and not “bad” !!!

…I realize that i sound quite silly and “exclusive” in this regard, so i will understand if you guys think i’m nuts…

Well, good :) 'cause that’s what i think :)

@EmuGod:

No one said anything abut more rights or superiority, F_alk. I posted this to FinsterniS (I think that’s how you spell his name) and tried to explain how the term may seem racist but its implications are not.

Well, your throw around the accusation of others being racist (anti semite in this case) pretty fast! That was the point i was critizing. If you call someone antisemite without thinking double…… well, then i can call you racist without thinking twice as well!

If you go against another religion, you are racist. There is a special word, anti-semitism, to describe hatred against Jews. …

I know, nice explanation for the others, but no need to do it a third time :)

What is horrible about inter-marriage is that it ends the religion. When two people from different backgrounds get married and want to raise a child, who’s religion and culture do they follow? Many try to let the child choose for himself/herself, but that is not possible because children are not able to make such decisions until they reach adulthood. See my point? It is very hard to keep a religion/culture (I’m assuming that both the parents really love their culture/religion and want the child to have it) when the two cultures/religions are so different. In most cases, the child loses both cultures. In the case of Judaism, this will most likely diminish the number of Jews in the world. Remember, Jews make up 0.25% of the world’s population. 15 million out of 6 billion if you want to confirm the math.

Why not teach the kid both traditions, abnd let it choose? You will have a tolerant follower of one of those tradtions, and that of its freew ill and not because it was fed with dogma after dogma from birth on.

Plus: the three book-keeping religions are not too different, compared to other religions that have existed and stil exist. An Intermarriage here should not at all be a problem, and most of the time the trouble comes from a muslim woman involved (which are not allowed by their religion to marry someone of another faith) …. christians are “by law” pretty free to marry whoever they want, but as CC said, maybe “feel” like not doing it… and i recall that jews are not allowed to marry non-jews, is that right?

Plus: the number of followers of Zeus, Thor and the tooth fairy :) have diminished as well over the time… i know that you will fight against that trend, but well, it’s only natural for religions to die out. Som for me, that argument makes your point understandable for you, but i can’t see the “global” importance.

…They were Christians or Atheists and did not understand why they were being called Jews until they realized it was because of some parent or grandparent. Assimilation is good to a point. Once you start losing your tradition and culture you are a very easy target for racism, because you don’t even know WHY you are being targetted. You don’t have a difinitive place to go to in order t osave yourself.

To the first: i think they understood why they were called jews half an hour the latest after they have been first called it….
And for losing your tradition: I disagree with your point of view. If you try not to be part of the society… you said:

Many people do not like people who are not like them because they are scared of wwhat they do not know.

That of course happens much more, when you are not assimilated, and people can see that you are different every day on the streets.

The whole concept of the “Chosen People” has nothing to do with the people’s blood or anything, like Hitler thought it was with his “aryan race”. It’s something more spiritual and I can recommend lots of readings for you if you want to learn exactly what it means. … People sometimes decide to convert to Judaism, and if they are committed and really want to, they can convert to the religion. It’s a long 3-year process, but those who want to go through it are fully accepted.

But they can’t immigrate to Israel before that three years, right?
And when did that interpretation from chosen people blood<->spiritual change? You can’t tell me it was like that since the foundation of the jewsih faith, so it must have changed…. when and why?

Plus: if this is a spiritual thing, why is the promised land not spiritual? where does the justification for taking control there come from?

Are we talking about Eastern Europe or Western Europe now? In Eastern Europe the Jews were forced into ghettos and were merely tolerated in the Pale of Settlement. In Western Europe, the Jews were given full rights and citizenship and many assimilated into the culture to the point where they lost their religion. …

We are talking about times/dates. Have a look at spain during the reconquista etc. the ghettos were everywhere, and especially when jews were in a christian society and didn’t (were not allowed to) assimilate. The spanish jews all moved to the same ottoman city …. they chose to build that ghetto!
The full rights in western europe… well, they came in the 19th century! I was talking about the 1000 years before that (roughly).

Part of Judaism is tolerance for other religions. …
In fact, F_alk, many of your arguements were based on Christian beliefs rather than Jewish beliefs. There are some very big differences between the two religions, and you struck the Christian (I’m talking old Christian before the Holocaust) beliefs.

Of course they are more christian than jewish: i grew up in a christian-based society. But i wonder which of my arguments where “old christian” and which were not…
The same argument goes for your stance on Israel/Palestine: your arguments are israel/jewish-based rather than palestine/muslim beliefs. There are some very big difference between the two religions, and you struck the jewish beliefs… hmmm, i hope that makes you thinking a bit…

And it must hurt CC and YB to hear someone call me christian :lol:

Yes,
the idea of being evenly yoked is better for the future of the relationship.
the husband/wife will most likely grow and encourage growth in the same areas as well as some others. Kids raised in one faith will at least have one.
When mom goes to church and dad goes to synagogue yagot problems. They fight over which faith to rear the kidsin :P . If one is stayin home the kids ask ‘why do I havta go?’ When given a choice between A and B in faith the kids usually chose C. Most kids ? their faith from about age 12 to 25(concentration is 14 to 22, I worked with 30 Arabs aged 18-22 , BOY did they push the limits of their faith while away from religious authority).
Children should learn the history of religion(s). They can understand that it comes down to FAITH. A lot of HISTORICAL FACTS CANNOT BE PROVEN. they are just stories(i.e., the civil war[photos -big deal], the Napoleonic Wars[letters, documents-whoopie]). The Kuran and Bible contra dict each other. The Bible was written first, but the Kuran seems to have remained unchanged. The Bible is correct , but the Kuran is God’s clarification. Jesus is the Son of GOd , but Jesus is just a prophet.
I value the history of my christian heritage. I loved learning new, hip songs as a teen, But didn’t like too many hymns. A few hymns grew on me and I learned each verse, not to mention the Christmas carols. Now, in my 40’s, I struggle with the new repetitive song of the church youth. I still love the songs that were new to my generation. However, I see the connection to hundreds of years of seekers through the old hymns and carols. I may not be singing the same chants the believers did in the catacombs, but I know the connection is there. FAITH.
And that isn’t even taking into account the prayers I know have been answered(not always the way we want it). I have been part of a prayer team in the past and had people report instant, temporary relief as well as delayed permanent relief. I have never seen a physical healing to which I could bear witness. However, I have had people come to me saying they were lost, injured, and/or searching and I said/prayed the right thing to help them be healed/find the answer. I am not sure how relationships with God work. He works in various ways. We have to seek Him. He has been with me when I walked out of the church and sought another way. But, I learned that individuals, churches, and businesses wrong us, since they are all made up of individuals.
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I am not omniscient, omnipresent, nor omnipotent. - Xi

And by the way, I swtiched at age 12 without any help from my parents.

Haha, brave little american, you overcome the virus (the expression of Dawkins) and for that, because i know this is not always easy (even more in your situation), you have all my admiration. Agnosticism is a normal step towards Atheism :)

can understand that it comes down to FAITH.

I have a question, i ask it once but i did not get answer… so i’ll ask it again because i am stubborn :)

(pi) You can only believe in god with Faith, not with logic
(pii) Each religion is bases on faith
(piii) Faith is not a guarantor of the veracity of something
(ci) Each religion is as valid as the other

I am sure some will hate the conclusion, but it is true. If i have faith in an “evil” god that hate humanity and create us only to torture us when we will die; there is not a single reason to believe i am more wrong than any christian.

@FinsterniS:

can understand that it comes down to FAITH.

I have a question, i ask it once but i did not get answer… so i’ll ask it again because i am stubborn :)

(pi) You can only believe in god with Faith, not with logic
(pii) Each religion is bases on faith
(piii) Faith is not a guarantor of the veracity of something
(ci) Each religion is as valid as the other

I am sure some will hate the conclusion, but it is true. If i have faith in an “evil” god that hate humanity and create us only to torture us when we will die; there is not a single reason to believe i am more wrong than any christian.

You see, this is our problem. Your question looks extremely rhetorical (can you add an adjective before rhetorical?).
Also your reasoning is flawed in approaching your conclusion. The “validity of religion” has little/nothing to do with whether it is faith-based or not. Rather the validity of religion has everything to do with the original premise (sp?).
(ci) might be more appropriately considered “each religion may appear as valid as the other to a third party non-participant”.
Also your belief in that “evil god” has much to do with your relationship with it, your level of mental acuity, as well as those other things we look to for “validity in a religion”.
Question - going back to the “descartes” theory:
we have 2 people - one Christian, one atheist - both preaching their religion with fervor (one for Jesus, one anti-Jesus). Both die. What have they done?

Hopefully, both of you have lived full, meaningful lives. We argue back and forth, reach little ground. Theories, evidence, proof, miracles, logic, what have you, etc., etc. We’ll all believe what we will, little will change it. The Great Unknown Mystery - death is this. No one can really say with absolute certainy what happens to us when we die. We have to wait to find out. Either way, Heaven, Hell, or nothing at all; we will have wanted our lives to be full and worth our stay here on earth. Finally, the end.

The interesting aspect of all the Diety/Religious posting is the amount of ill feelings and hatred towards certain faiths. Most use history to back this up. Personally, I believe very few of us have been wronged by an entire religious group right now. It’s easy to be angered by the wrongs of others in the past. Very few will argue any good for the Nazi’s defense. It would be wrong to hold it against today’s German people. The same goes for religious groups. Remember, all groups whether religious, political, social, etc. will abuse power when in a position of authority sometime in the past, present, future. It is the flawed human condition - someone will always want power, money, fame, on and on. They will be allied with some belief and/or political structure. Those people will commit crimes against humanity, be disposed of, over and over, again and again. Extremists will deviate from original beliefs and actions. Members of the original beliefs break away - true to their ways. Those who are save the group once the radicals are gone. Those are whom get hated (and improperly so) for the wrongs of their former companions or ancestors. Keep this in mind when we trash a belief system…

I must’ve been gone for too long, but wasn’t the topic about whether or not to attack Iraq?

With respect to religion. I will say that religion is not some multiple choice question. You cannot simply eliminate all other religions less “valid” (if this is possible), and the one you have left is right. The problem is that there is no way to think of all possible religions that can be offered or if the right religion has even been discovered.

@cystic:

@FinsterniS:

can understand that it comes down to FAITH.

I have a question, i ask it once but i did not get answer… so i’ll ask it again because i am stubborn :)

(pi) You can only believe in god with Faith, not with logic
(pii) Each religion is bases on faith
(piii) Faith is not a guarantor of the veracity of something
(ci) Each religion is as valid as the other

I am sure some will hate the conclusion, but it is true. If i have faith in an “evil” god that hate humanity and create us only to torture us when we will die; there is not a single reason to believe i am more wrong than any christian.

You see, this is our problem. Your question looks extremely rhetorical (can you add an adjective before rhetorical?).
Also your reasoning is flawed in approaching your conclusion. The “validity of religion” has little/nothing to do with whether it is faith-based or not. Rather the validity of religion has everything to do with the original premise (sp?).
(ci) might be more appropriately considered “each religion may appear as valid as the other to a third party non-participant”.
Also your belief in that “evil god” has much to do with your relationship with it, your level of mental acuity, as well as those other things we look to for “validity in a religion”.
Question - going back to the “descartes” theory:
we have 2 people - one Christian, one atheist - both preaching their religion with fervor (one for Jesus, one anti-Jesus). Both die. What have they done?

What i want to point out is that if religion is essentially base on Faith, not Logic, no religion can be considered false or more valid. Exemple; faith is on what christian base their religion, same thing goes for the ancient Celt, their gods are in pure contradiction with the christian god, but how can you claim their gods are mythology if the “tool” they use is the same as you; faith ?

About the Atheist and the Christian, you must first understand that Atheism is not a religion, all Atheism believe different thing; they are free. Exept some religion that are atheist like buddhism (most buddhist). If an atheist is “preaching”, it’s like an Empirist or a Rationalist, it’s not a religion; it’s a philogophy. About what they have done; the christian have spread lies to make him feel good, he give false hope and teach how to use faith instead of intellect… Nothing very constructive for humanity, that’s why you’ll see more and more humanist that are militant Atheist.

About the Atheist and the Christian, you must first understand that Atheism is not a religion, all Atheism believe different thing; they are free

Agreed. Most of the Atheist I know believe in different ideals and philosophy and ideals (epistemological relativism, epistemological skepticism, ethical relativism or subjectivism, ethical absolutism, ethical realism in purely secular terms, materialism, narcissism, nihilism, humanitarianism, ect). It is NOT a religion and shouldn’t be treated as one.

At least other Religions believed their Gods weren’t omnipotent.

Unless you want to defy logic, there is no plausible way to believe God is omnipotent. And certainly not a “all loving” God.

@Yanny:

I’m proud to be Agnostic. I view everyone not Agnostic (except maybe Athiests, though they are included in this) to have flawed, stupid, and outrageous views on Religion.

However, I view the “Religions of the book” with a particular bloodthirst. These Religions believe in slavery, except they are the slaves. They believe in Facism, though few even know the definition of the word. They worship a God, and never stop to question his existance. At least other Religions believed their Gods weren’t omnipotent. They had flaws and competition. This God of the book has no flaws. To me, thats the truely stupid part of the Religions.

I look to myself for Religion. I am the most important person in the world to me, as it should be with everyone. Instead, people spend their lives “serving” Jesus or Muhammad, or fearing God’s wrath.

Probably as much as 90% of the Agnostic i knew became Atheist, myself included. It would probably, one day, seem to you like an unjustified compromise; i don’t think there is much people getting from Theist to Atheist without a little step between the two. Still, agnostic are free thinker, they need only their own will to pass throught life.

Of course, it also depent of your definition of Agnosticism & Atheism…. Agnosticism can be applied everywhere, not only in religion, it is an attitude to say “i don’t have enough information to claim something is true or false”. To some extend i am still Agnostic, i cannot say i am 100% sure god does not exist; that would not be logical. I just say he is as probable as the tooth fairy, for me it’s enough to claim god does not exist.

I am the most important person in the world to me, as it should be with everyone.

I disagree, you are nothing without the people around you. Just imagine how the world would be if you were alone; you will have no more purpose in life. Our purpose is the society we live in, we most make everything to keep this society in good shape.

@Yanny:

I care about the people around me. However, I come first. My needs are first, I would not take a bullet for someone. I might help them out, but I won’t starve so someone can eat.

Well, i bet that will change once you have kids.

@F_alk:

Well, i bet that will change once you have kids.

That’s very true F_alk.

YANNY, did I catch you in the middle of changing your PIC tonight?
I saw de X box under your Pengy :o :oops: :P :roll:
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I’m havin’ too much fun! - Xi