Operation Market Garden

@losttribe04:

15. There was a fairy they Polish Paratroopers were supposed to use to meet up with the British 1st. What I have read is the fairy was missing and was later found down stream unserviceable. What would you say if we established a dock on the map? If the Germans held that space at the beginning of turn 5 the fairy was destroyed. If the space was unoccupied anyone who held that location could choose to destroy or use it like an exclusive bridge. Just taking input, I’d like to know what you think about this subject.

-LT04

I don’t mean to pick, but I use a ferry.  Unless your going to put trolls at the bridges…  :wink:

On a more serious note.  The 9th and 10th SS were on R&R after heavy combat.  Infact I believe the 9th SS “Panzer” actualy had no tanks.  Between the two divisions they had the numbers for about one full strenth div.

As for deployment, I would give the allies loose perameters and let them choose thier LZs.  I would have them write them down and then have the German player deploy.  Historicaly the Allied landing came in waves, so I would say the allies should get half on T1 and the other half on T3.  Part of the difficulty for the Brit AB was begining thier assault and defeding their LZs for the 2nd wave.

The 9th SS had a recon unit that was a major player in both Nijmegan and Arnham so yo umay think about some scout units, they initaly started in Arnhem, but the Brits advance was stalled, so they went to Nijmegan and held that bridge before returning to Arnhem where the Brit AB stopped them at the Bridge.

Also due to communication problems and planning snafu’s the Germans enjoyed initiative through out the battle, which is historicly unusual for an AB operation.

I am saying if you want to sway from the traditional objectives add Appledoorn. Market Garden is a one minded operation, get up that road and turn right… I have always wondered, what would happened if the objective was ultimately to turn left (Antwerp)… Any number of scenarios can be created, depending on the size of your map. If it is mainly focused on the operational areas then disregard Appledoorn. I would suggest along with Jermofoot to pick up Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far. I still play it occasionally, even despite its interface innacuracies (Panzerfausts have extended ranges, Infantry panic mid street and attempt to crawl, etc.) it supplied me with a lot of background looking into the operation area.

As a sideline, I’m not sure if you know this, but the end goal of Op Market Garden was to swing into the Rhine Valley and Destroy the 3rd Reich’s Industry…

Dzrt, actually 9th SS Panzer did have some Heavy Tanks, but they came in on the 19th I believe… It is true they were both Half Strength though… There "strength came from “Kampfgruppe’s” organized from Ad Hoc Units thrown together from the Allied Rampages in Normandy and France at large. And I would agree, Com plays a large part in the battle… Whether hidden info is implemented, or you have die +/- factoring find a way to implement Com…

GG

I think the british com issues are most easily handled with an initiative bonus to the Germans.

Yes! I couldn’t agree more… Impulse move for each sector would definitely make the gameplay better, adding that element into it that you don’t get with just straight “Market Garden”…

GG

One of the great aspects of gaming is the ability to play the same or closely similar scenarios through several times.  Once you get this map sorted out I’d plan to use it several times.

The history as I understand it was that Market Garden was extremely linear and places like Apledorn were not in the plans.  Obviously it was liberated later in the war.  Playing alternate scenarios could change this.

I’d play the first couple of versions trying to maintain realism of objectives from history while putting in secondary secret objectives for game play.

I don’t know if you’ve looked at this yet, but there are some good operational type maps and discriptions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden

Concerning initiative -

I believe that the Germans were slow to respond.  There was disbelief that a daylight AB raid occurred.  However, it didn’t take long until they organized and put up an effort.

I think for game mechanics, the initiative should be on the Allies.  They are essentially outgunned (the AB), and can’t receive reinforcement unless XXX corps makes a major push.  I’ve got a few ideas for you that I could try and post later.  So giving an initiative to Germany while they have homefield advantage anyway seems a bit extreme to me, but I’d have to see the exact implementation.

@losttribe04:

As far a DZ go I like you idea of leaving them up to the allied player. I think we should set some rules for example they can only land in open spaces (for obvious reasons) that way we can limitedly funnel them into a general area by placing city, or forest spaces without telling them where they have to land specifically.

Defineately, designate boundries for where the DZ has to be but alow the Alied player to choose the specific spot.

Also you might add a random chance of units missing the designated DZ.  The odds in MG where good compared to Dday, but still I think 15% of units missed the DZ.

As for initiative, the Allies should definately have initiative on the first turn, but after that historicly they lost it.  The germans were confused for a short time but once it was reported where the landings had occured it was obvious what the objective was.

The Bitish Communication problems were a big problem for the 1st, they were unable to comunicate more than a couple hundred yards and they’re deployment covered up to eight miles.  They couldn’t coordinate indirect fire or air support.

@dezrtfish:

The Bitish Communication problems were a big problem for the 1st, they were unable to comunicate more than a couple hundred yards and they’re deployment covered up to eight miles.  They couldn’t coordinate indirect fire or air support.

Not to mention some of their commanding officers were held up in an attic.

I would propose something along the timeline:

T1 - AB gets an initiative bonus.  You could do this by penalizing the attacking/defending power of the German force, or adding bonuses to the attacking AB.

As the turns go on, this bonus is reduced, or outright eliminated.  One could be applied to the German force at that time (possibly increased as time goes on) to represent homefield advantage/defense, plus the organization and mobilization of forces.  It all depends on your system.

It’s like the balance of A&A in regards to units and economic power - the Axis have a large force and moderate economic power at the beginning.  The Allies have a smaller force but a larger economic potential…

@losttribe04:

Dezrtfish,

I had planned to make secondary DZ ‘areas’ for the player to place units that were split from the main group. I had planned to make the British 1st farther apart (for historical accuracy) and the 82nd and 101st closer together.

I was thinking more like roll 2d6 for each deployed AB unit.  on a “2” roll a 1d6 and the unit missed by that many hexes.

@losttribe04:

I’m unsure what an ‘initiative bonus’ is and how you implement it into the game. Could you clarify, please?

I was thinking somthing similar to a comanders initiative bonus.  Maybe the Allies get +2 until all troops are on the ground and then a round with no modifier then switch to a bonus for German initiative.  You could even start out with a 3 or 4 and reduce it one point per turn to 0 then give the Germans a one point bonus increased per round.  This would give the Brits incentive to move quickly as was neccesery.
@losttribe04:

You bring up another question I wanted to ask. Was there enough allied or German air support in this campaign worth mentioning?

I know the 1st AB had no support, because they couldn’t talk and the Brits feared friendly fire.

I think the allies had air superioraty by this time, I read that the american units at least were supplyed via air drop.

@losttribe04:

Some more general questions:

Was the 9th Recon Battalion a unit of the 9th SS Panzer? I was considering placing them in like fashion to the paratroopers a few rounds into the game.

The recon Battalion was the 9th SS panzer Division Recon BN.  So yes.  They one of the first German units to respond, by moving from the Arnhem Area to Nijmegan.

I think a beter Idea would be to place German units and put restictions on them like, no movement until contact pryor to round x.

@losttribe04:

Also did Oss play any part in this campaign? To keep my map even close to scale I may have to cut it but if it played a role I figure something out.

No idea on that one.

@losttribe04:

Thanks for all the help,

-LT04

Well in the case of the British XXX Corps, they had low initiative compared to Kurt Student who rapidly mobilized the paratroopers in defense of the Maas… Each Divisional commander is weaker or stronger depending upon there separate strengths…

GG

The 82nd were tasked with taking the central bridge at Nimejen and protecting the Right Flank of the XXX Corps from Attacks by German Troops coming out of the Reichswald Forest. Their defenses were centered on Groesbeek Heights, a hill position overlooking the City of Nimejen and relatively defensible. The German attackers comprised of several Ad Hoc Divisions and hodge podges of Luftwaffe Infantry, Hospital Quarterlies, and Training Groups attack the Airborne with a 15:1 numerical strength. But the 82nd on the Heights, being personally commanded by James Gavin were able to juggle their defense and hold off the German onslaught. They attacked into the city at the same time, and were stopped short of the bridge when the Germans through up a stiff defense. They eventually preformed a daring crossing during the afternoon of the 20th and successfully seized the southside of the Bridge over the Waal. But it was too late, since the Bridge in Arnhem had fallen that morning. That is history… What specifically else would you like to discuss? :)

GG