That tea $hit got a lot of allied soldiers killed during WWI though and Germany knew UK would do that.
Operation Market Garden
-
Yes! I couldn’t agree more… Impulse move for each sector would definitely make the gameplay better, adding that element into it that you don’t get with just straight “Market Garden”…
GG
-
Hey,
I understand why we can’t just tell the British player take this DZ by this turn for reinforcements b/c then the German player would also be aware of this and try to stop this form happening when chances are they may or may not have ever knew about it in the first place.
I like the idea of keeping the primary objectives the same and mixing up the secondary objectives. I had an idea that we should put the secondary objectives on cheap business cards I can make on the computer shuffle them up and have allied players pick so many. This way the German player will really have no idea what the allies are trying to secure.
I know the ferry idea historically didn’t work out and it had nothing to do with the German or Allied players, but it looks like we might want to throw it in as a secondary objective if we run short of other ideas.
As far a DZ go I like you idea of leaving them up to the allied player. I think we should set some rules for example they can only land in open spaces (for obvious reasons) that way we can limitedly funnel them into a general area by placing city, or forest spaces without telling them where they have to land specifically.
I like you idea of swaying away from the traditional objectives and having them move to Appledoorn or Antwerp. I wonder if that’s such a good idea if we make this accurate the British 1st will be the only ones who can reach it and they will have their hands full. If you have a proposal let me know.
I’m still looking for a good map of Eindhoven. If any one comes a cross one let me know. I went to Googel Earth and I found the Lower Rhine, and Waal rivers but Maas doesn’t show up. Even if it did I’m still unsure of where 101st landed in or around it.
Thanks for all the help,
-LT04
-
One of the great aspects of gaming is the ability to play the same or closely similar scenarios through several times. Once you get this map sorted out I’d plan to use it several times.
The history as I understand it was that Market Garden was extremely linear and places like Apledorn were not in the plans. Obviously it was liberated later in the war. Playing alternate scenarios could change this.
I’d play the first couple of versions trying to maintain realism of objectives from history while putting in secondary secret objectives for game play.
-
I know hind sight is 20-20, but I think I would have sent 101st, wait to have heard there report then sent 82nd, wait to have heard there report then sent the British 1st. Once the 101st said big bridge go boom I might have sent 82nd but not the 1st.
-LT04
-
In the AAM game 1 space = 100 meters. My board isn’t off by much for being scaled down. It would be more like 1 space = 1,000 meters. So from Arnhem to Nijmegen it’s a perfect 18 spaces or 18,087 meters. I’m not sure how far I’m off with Eindhoven or other towns but with Googel Earth I’ll fix them. I’ll try to make them the same size also.
-LT04
-
I don’t know if you’ve looked at this yet, but there are some good operational type maps and discriptions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden -
Concerning initiative -
I believe that the Germans were slow to respond. There was disbelief that a daylight AB raid occurred. However, it didn’t take long until they organized and put up an effort.
I think for game mechanics, the initiative should be on the Allies. They are essentially outgunned (the AB), and can’t receive reinforcement unless XXX corps makes a major push. I’ve got a few ideas for you that I could try and post later. So giving an initiative to Germany while they have homefield advantage anyway seems a bit extreme to me, but I’d have to see the exact implementation.
-
As far a DZ go I like you idea of leaving them up to the allied player. I think we should set some rules for example they can only land in open spaces (for obvious reasons) that way we can limitedly funnel them into a general area by placing city, or forest spaces without telling them where they have to land specifically.
Defineately, designate boundries for where the DZ has to be but alow the Alied player to choose the specific spot.
Also you might add a random chance of units missing the designated DZ. Â The odds in MG where good compared to Dday, but still I think 15% of units missed the DZ.
As for initiative, the Allies should definately have initiative on the first turn, but after that historicly they lost it. The germans were confused for a short time but once it was reported where the landings had occured it was obvious what the objective was.
The Bitish Communication problems were a big problem for the 1st, they were unable to comunicate more than a couple hundred yards and they’re deployment covered up to eight miles. They couldn’t coordinate indirect fire or air support.
-
The Bitish Communication problems were a big problem for the 1st, they were unable to comunicate more than a couple hundred yards and they’re deployment covered up to eight miles. They couldn’t coordinate indirect fire or air support.
Not to mention some of their commanding officers were held up in an attic.
-
Dezrtfish,
I had planned to make secondary DZ ‘areas’ for the player to place units that were split from the main group. I had planned to make the British 1st farther apart (for historical accuracy) and the 82nd and 101st closer together.
I’m unsure what an ‘initiative bonus’ is and how you implement it into the game. Could you clarify, please?
You bring up another question I wanted to ask. Was there enough allied or German air support in this campaign worth mentioning?
Some more general questions:
Was the 9th Recon Battalion a unit of the 9th SS Panzer? I was considering placing them in like fashion to the paratroopers a few rounds into the game.
Also did Oss play any part in this campaign? To keep my map even close to scale I may have to cut it but if it played a role I figure something out.
Thanks for all the help,
-LT04
-
As far as initiative jumping back and forth from side to side is there a way we can engineer it so who ever performed a specific event got the initiative bonus for the next round?
-LT04
-
I would propose something along the timeline:
T1 - AB gets an initiative bonus. You could do this by penalizing the attacking/defending power of the German force, or adding bonuses to the attacking AB.
As the turns go on, this bonus is reduced, or outright eliminated. One could be applied to the German force at that time (possibly increased as time goes on) to represent homefield advantage/defense, plus the organization and mobilization of forces. It all depends on your system.
It’s like the balance of A&A in regards to units and economic power - the Axis have a large force and moderate economic power at the beginning. The Allies have a smaller force but a larger economic potential…
-
Dezrtfish,
I had planned to make secondary DZ ‘areas’ for the player to place units that were split from the main group. I had planned to make the British 1st farther apart (for historical accuracy) and the 82nd and 101st closer together.
I was thinking more like roll 2d6 for each deployed AB unit. on a “2” roll a 1d6 and the unit missed by that many hexes.
I’m unsure what an ‘initiative bonus’ is and how you implement it into the game. Could you clarify, please?
I was thinking somthing similar to a comanders initiative bonus. Maybe the Allies get +2 until all troops are on the ground and then a round with no modifier then switch to a bonus for German initiative. You could even start out with a 3 or 4 and reduce it one point per turn to 0 then give the Germans a one point bonus increased per round. This would give the Brits incentive to move quickly as was neccesery.
@losttribe04:You bring up another question I wanted to ask. Was there enough allied or German air support in this campaign worth mentioning?
I know the 1st AB had no support, because they couldn’t talk and the Brits feared friendly fire.
I think the allies had air superioraty by this time, I read that the american units at least were supplyed via air drop.
Some more general questions:
Was the 9th Recon Battalion a unit of the 9th SS Panzer? I was considering placing them in like fashion to the paratroopers a few rounds into the game.
The recon Battalion was the 9th SS panzer Division Recon BN. So yes. They one of the first German units to respond, by moving from the Arnhem Area to Nijmegan.
I think a beter Idea would be to place German units and put restictions on them like, no movement until contact pryor to round x.
Also did Oss play any part in this campaign? To keep my map even close to scale I may have to cut it but if it played a role I figure something out.
No idea on that one.
Thanks for all the help,
-LT04
-
Dezrtfish,
I like your idea better about DZ deployment.
How does a commanders initiative bonus work?
I figured the Brits didn’t have air support. I was looking more into it to see if the Germans had any.
I figured the 9th recon belonged to the 9th panzer. I like you idea about not being able to move until round x, but I would change it to they can’t move unles attacked until round x.
-
Well in the case of the British XXX Corps, they had low initiative compared to Kurt Student who rapidly mobilized the paratroopers in defense of the Maas… Each Divisional commander is weaker or stronger depending upon there separate strengths…
GG
-
Hey,
Alright I got al kinds of information about the British 1st. So now I want to shift focus onto 82nd specifically.
-LT04
-
The 82nd were tasked with taking the central bridge at Nimejen and protecting the Right Flank of the XXX Corps from Attacks by German Troops coming out of the Reichswald Forest. Their defenses were centered on Groesbeek Heights, a hill position overlooking the City of Nimejen and relatively defensible. The German attackers comprised of several Ad Hoc Divisions and hodge podges of Luftwaffe Infantry, Hospital Quarterlies, and Training Groups attack the Airborne with a 15:1 numerical strength. But the 82nd on the Heights, being personally commanded by James Gavin were able to juggle their defense and hold off the German onslaught. They attacked into the city at the same time, and were stopped short of the bridge when the Germans through up a stiff defense. They eventually preformed a daring crossing during the afternoon of the 20th and successfully seized the southside of the Bridge over the Waal. But it was too late, since the Bridge in Arnhem had fallen that morning. That is history… What specifically else would you like to discuss? :)
GG
-
Hey,
I know the 9th and 10th Panzer DIV were combating the British 1st. That leaves the following units in the mix yet unaccounted for as far as starting locations and strength goes:
19th SS Grenadier DIV,
85th INF DIV,
719th INF DIV,
The 59th INF was also involved in Op MG but they were in or near Eindhoven combating the 101st.Here are my 82nd questions:
Did 82nd have any air support?
Where and when did the 325 gliders of the 82nd land if at all?
Groesbeek Heights:
I was thinking of placing mountain terrain all around the city 1 space away like a mote to give the 82nd cover unless the Germans were to move onto the mountain space or closer. If they moved into the space between the mountains and the city this would leave them sitting ducks wile the ABN would have a cover role from the protection of the city. What do you think as far as that goes?
Although the 82nd was vastly outnumbered does any one have a proposal for how to compensate them for the inexperience of the training units and hospital orderlies?
Also the 20th (or turn 3) was a big day for the 82nd they both took the south side of the bridge and the 504th of the 82nd met up with XXX Corps. What happened 1st? It would be easier to take the bridge with the aid of XXX Corps, but if they met up later maybe we could make it so they don’t get the XXX Corps reinforcements until they take the south end of the bridge.
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
-LT04
-
Air support at large for the Paras was not well coordinated and they did not recieve much, except when the Transports and Gliders had Escorts.
The 325th Dropped on the Heights at the very end of the Operation, they had been delayed by bad weather. The 82nd Met up with the XXX Corps first, and that should be what happens first. Although the tanks of XXX Corps did help them in the crossing of the Waal.
I will have to get back to you on locations, I am not 100% clear on those… Groesbeek Heights was directly abudded up to the city, there should be no space between them…
GG
-
How does a commanders initiative bonus work?
It adds to the initiative dice at the begining of the round, you have played a few small scale games haven’t you?
I figured the Brits didn’t have air support. I was looking more into it to see if the Germans had any.
As far as I know air was not much of a factor for anyone
@losttribe04:I figured the 9th recon belonged to the 9th panzer. I like you idea about not being able to move until round x, but I would change it to they can’t move unles attacked until round x.
I would say they can’t move unless an enemy unit move into thier line of site or, say, round 3, more realistic.
also the recon unit should not have movement restrictions. Durring the battle they saw alot of action in multiple areas.I don’t think you should concentrate too much on forcing things to play out historicly. If XXX corp had been able to move faster, things may have been different. Maybe they could have rearainged thier battle order, or maybe they could have gotten lucky. Just set up the conditions and see if brilaint leadership or luck can make things different. Of course brilaint allied leadership would be to scrap the opperation, bu tthat’s my oppinion… :-D
Also, for the wermacht divisions, for more realisam just restrict them to volkstrum units and fortress defenders. The the volkstrum are weak infantry and the fortress defenders are weak if they leave their deployment spot, like say defending a bridge or city.
Suggested Topics
