Ragnell804 (Germany) vs TGC (Allies) Game 14

@Ragnell804

Game History

Round: 4

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 2 artilleries, 2 infantry and 3 transports; Remaining resources: 3 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 infantry moved from Algeria to Tunisia
              Americans take Tunisia from Germans
        1 infantry moved from Gibraltar to Strait of Gibraltar Sea Zone
        1 infantry and 1 transport moved from Strait of Gibraltar Sea Zone to Tyrrhenian Sea Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from Morocco to Northern Italy
        1 infantry moved from Tyrrhenian Sea Sea Zone to Northern Italy
        1 fighter moved from Leningrad to Karelia
        2 destroyers moved from British Convoy 3 Sea Zone to English Channel Sea Zone
        3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from United Kingdom to Celtic Sea Sea Zone
        3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to English Channel Sea Zone
        3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Netherlands-Belgium
        2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from United States to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone
        2 artilleries, 4 infantry and 3 transports moved from U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone to Celtic Sea Sea Zone
        2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to United Kingdom

    Combat - Americans
        Strategic bombing raid in Northern Italy
            Bombing raid in Northern Italy rolls: 5 and costs: 5 PUs.
            Bombing raid costs 5 PUs
        Battle in Northern Italy

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        1 bomber moved from Northern Italy to France

    Place Units - Americans
        2 artilleries and 2 infantry placed in United States
        3 transports placed in U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 47 PUs; end with 50 PUs

USA4.tsvg

1d6<=2: 4; Hits: 0

@Ragnell804

Game History

Round: 5

    Purchase Units - Russians
        Russians buy 2 artilleries and 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Russians
        6 infantry moved from Russia to Moscow
        5 armour moved from Karelia to Moscow
        1 submarine moved from Barents Sea Sea Zone to Soviet Convoy Sea Zone
              Russians take Soviet Convoy Sea Zone from Germans
        1 submarine moved from Soviet Convoy Sea Zone to Barents Sea Sea Zone

    Combat - Russians
        Battle in Barents Sea Sea Zone
            Russians attack with 1 submarine
            Germans defend with 1 submarine
                Russians roll dice for 1 submarine in Barents Sea Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in Barents Sea Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
            1 submarine owned by the Russians submerged

    Non Combat Move - Russians

    Place Units - Russians
        2 artilleries and 4 infantry placed in Moscow

    Turn Complete - Russians
        Russians collect 19 PUs; end with 19 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans regular : -0.33
Russians regular : -0.33

@Ragnell804

Game History

Round: 5

    Purchase Units - British
        British buy 4 artilleries and 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 2 PUs; 

    Combat Move - British
        1 armour moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Eastern France
              British take Eastern France from Germans
        1 armour moved from Eastern France to Germany
        5 artilleries and 8 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Germany
        4 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone
        4 artilleries, 4 infantry and 4 transports moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone
        4 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Germany
        2 fighters moved from Karelia to Germany
        1 bomber moved from Cyprus to Germany

    Combat - British
        Battle in Germany
            British attack with 1 armour, 9 artilleries, 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 12 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 1 bomber, 1 factory, 4 fighters and 21 infantry
                Germans roll AA dice in Germany : 1/3 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                1 fighter owned by the British lost in Germany
                British roll dice for 1 armour, 9 artilleries, 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 12 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 7/24 hits, 8.17 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 bomber, 4 fighters and 21 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 11/26 hits, 9.83 expected hits
                11 infantry owned by the British lost in Germany
                1 bomber owned by the Germans and 6 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany
                British roll dice for 1 armour, 9 artilleries, 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 7/13 hits, 5.00 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 4 fighters and 15 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 5/19 hits, 7.67 expected hits
                4 artilleries owned by the British and 1 infantry owned by the British lost in Germany
                7 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany
                British roll dice for 1 armour, 5 artilleries, 1 bomber and 1 fighter in Germany, round 4 : 1/8 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 4 fighters and 8 infantry in Germany, round 4 : 3/12 hits, 5.33 expected hits
                3 artilleries owned by the British lost in Germany
                1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany
                British roll dice for 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 bomber and 1 fighter in Germany, round 5 : 3/5 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 4 fighters and 7 infantry in Germany, round 5 : 5/11 hits, 5.00 expected hits
                1 bomber owned by the British, 2 artilleries owned by the British, 1 fighter owned by the British and 1 armour owned by the British lost in Germany
                3 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany
            Germans win with 4 fighters and 4 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -50
            Casualties for British: 1 armour, 9 artilleries, 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 12 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 1 bomber and 17 infantry

    Non Combat Move - British
        1 armour moved from United States to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone
        1 infantry moved from Turkestan to Moscow

    Place Units - British
        4 artilleries and 4 infantry placed in United Kingdom

    Turn Complete - British
        British collect 32 PUs; end with 34 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans AA : 0.50
Germans regular : -3.83
British regular : -0.83

@Ragnell804

Game History

Round: 5

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 3 artilleries, 2 fighters and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone
        2 artilleries, 3 destroyers, 4 infantry and 3 transports moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone
        2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Germany
        3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Germany
        1 fighter moved from Karelia to Germany

    Combat - Americans
        Battle in Germany
            Americans attack with 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory, 4 fighters and 4 infantry
                Germans roll AA dice in Germany : 1/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 fighter owned by the Americans lost in Germany
                Americans roll dice for 3 destroyers in Germany, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 7 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 3/12 hits, 3.67 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 4 fighters and 4 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 2/8 hits, 4.00 expected hits
                2 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany
                4 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany
                Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 5 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 3/10 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 4 fighters in Germany, round 3 : 3/4 hits, 2.67 expected hits
                3 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany
                3 fighters owned by the Germans lost in Germany
                Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 2 infantry in Germany, round 4 : 2/7 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 1 fighter in Germany, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany
                1 fighter owned by the Germans lost in Germany
            Americans captures 42PUs while taking Germans capital
            Americans win, taking Germany from Germans with 5 artilleries and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 30
            Casualties for Americans: 1 fighter and 6 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 4 fighters and 4 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Americans
        Trigger AlliedVictoryConditionsMet: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachmentAlliedVictorySwitch attached to Americans
        2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from United States to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone
        1 armour, 2 artilleries, 2 infantry and 3 transports moved from U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone to Celtic Sea Sea Zone
        2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to United Kingdom
        3 transports moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone

    Place Units - Americans
        3 artilleries, 2 fighters and 3 infantry placed in United States

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 49 PUs; end with 91 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -1.33
Germans AA : 0.83
Germans regular : -1.33

USA5.tsvg

@Ragnell804

Game History

Round: 5

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 4 artilleries, 6 infantry and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone
        2 artilleries, 4 infantry and 3 transports moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone
        2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Germany
        3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Germany
        3 destroyers moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Karelia to Germany

    Combat - Americans
        Battle in Germany
            Americans attack with 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry
            Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory, 6 fighters and 3 infantry
                Germans roll AA dice in Germany : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 3 destroyers in Germany, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 4/13 hits, 4.17 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 6 fighters and 3 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 7/9 hits, 5.00 expected hits
                7 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany
                1 fighter owned by the Germans and 3 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany
                Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 1 fighter in Germany, round 3 : 0/6 hits, 2.17 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 5 fighters in Germany, round 3 : 5/5 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                5 artilleries owned by the Americans lost in Germany
                Americans roll dice for 1 fighter in Germany, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Germans roll dice for 5 fighters in Germany, round 4 : 5/5 hits, 3.33 expected hits
                1 fighter owned by the Americans lost in Germany
                1 fighter owned by the Germans lost in Germany
            Germans win with 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is -20
            Casualties for Americans: 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry
            Casualties for Germans: 2 fighters and 3 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Americans

    Place Units - Americans
        4 artilleries and 6 infantry placed in United States
        2 transports placed in U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone

    Turn Complete - Americans
        Americans collect 43 PUs; end with 43 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -2.83
Germans AA : -0.17
Germans regular : 5.33

USA5.tsvg smh… 25% and you totally hit it out of the park, hah!

@DoManMacgee @kwaspek104 @VictoryFirst @Ragnell804 I’m very hesitant to recommend more than removing a bay of Biscay submarine and the German 12 IPC from the pregame buy.

I don’t see easy wins for Germany with the bay of biscay sub removal and dropping the 12 IPC. They seem to come down to dice or are otherwise extremely close. I know VF is messing around with removing an infantry from Romania …that seems like the next best adjustment but I am not yet convinced it’s necessary.

Anyway, just thought I’d drop a note at where we/I’m at. I’m going to start cutting videos this weekend but the balance video wont drop until probably february so should have it worked out by then.

You guys rock.

@The_Good_Captain

I don’t think just the bay of biscay and 12 IPCs are enough for balance. I can understand the romania removal might be a bit too much but I feel like when the game has even dice the German odds are still above 50/50 with the balance with just a sub and 12 IPCs removed.

@The_Good_Captain I think the current balance recommendation is overkill. I think the sub removal or Germany having no bid is sufficient. Leaning towards just removing Germany’s bid as that is more in line with the philosophy you applied to previous editions (with the exception of 1914, where you edited the map itself).

Alternatively, have you considered having the ME territories be treated as normal, income-generating territories for UK, and ax the current rules regarding ME Payments? That would give UK +8 to their starting income that would (typically) trail off over the course of the game, but they’d have an easier time building a fleet during the first two rounds without needing to resort to shenanigans like a nothing-buy or a Canada-buy B1. That type of change doesn’t seem too far removed over things you recommended in past versions (disallowing attacks on neutrals, mostly)

@The_Good_Captain Can’t edit posts in the “Play Boardgames” board but meant to elaborate on removing Germany’s bid.

If you remove Germany’s bid it allows a greater share of USSR’s starting army to survive the first turn (since that’s generally where the Allied bid will go unless people want to try being creative and keeping some of the UK Navy alive). The lack of a bid for Germany + keeping more of USSR’s starting army alive has a cascading effect on the rest of the game, as it slows down the German advance by ~1-2 turns, which I suspect may be enough for the Western Allies to pursue a more “normal” strategy than what I’d been reduced to in the last few games against you and @VictoryFirst (Fighter spam).

If the Allies are playing normally and a rush on Moscow is consistently putting up even-ish odds, that’s probably about as good as the balance in this edition is going to get. The OOB Victory Conditions + having USA as a static 30-IPC-per-turn territory and the Allies on-average having 2.5X Germany’s income even after USSR starts to die is never going to create a gameplay loop similar to the “mainline” editions. Germany cannot play a slow game here, nor can they ever simplify the game state to a point where they can.

@DoManMacgee

Interesting thoughts. I like the idea of the ME be worth IPCs for the Brits. Also, this Europe variant which was suggested by Kwaspek has some interesting rules that might help with the balance, although that might change the game a bit too much.

https://web.archive.org/web/20050419055428/http://www.wargamer.com/axisandallies/europe/houserules/dr/aae_house_rules_germanvictorycondition_rob-ah.html

One thing I fear is that when the game becomes balanced, it also becomes boring. As we all have experienced those Moscow odds are at this point mostly decided by dice, not that much by strategy. I think with a few minor rule tweaks, we can have both a balanced as well as a more strategical in-depth game. I know @The_Good_Captain isn’t a fan of house rules, but I’ve been told that that website above is from the actual game designer. It basically forces the Germans to not only capture Moscow, but also the rest of the Russian territories with an IC AND keep control of its own factories in Northern Italy and France. Also the ME becomes more interesting. With that, we most likely don’t need to remove any German units or IPCs from the starting setup which is a plus.

I think the sub removal or Germany having no bid is sufficient.

I still don’t fully agree with this, however you are right that 70%-ish percent is also kinda even. Balancing this game is like balancing a broom on your finger tips, so I guess it’s almost impossible to get completely balanced anyway.

@VictoryFirst

I will reference the links in the intro video for anyone who wants to peruse the different variants from the designers.

Yes, balancing any of these is much like balancing a broom on your finger. The recommendations I make in all versions are conservative. I would rather the game remain slightly imbalanced in Germany’s favor than run the risk of misbalancing in favor of the allies.

I feel that a balanced game by its nature is the most interesting. I feel that there are different plays the German player can make with a good vs bad opening Atlantic. Russia might be a stale player, but I feel this is ‘kind of’ true in many versions. I think its also the most critical to not f**k up because even one piece out of place can spell doom for the Allies. I think the Allies have multiple options at their disposal and @DoManMacgee has convinced me that its not just a threat to Berlin on turn 6 that can win it as the allies.

I think the minor theaters in this game are interesting. Will the allies win out in the Norway area and secure fighter strips that both threaten Moscow and Berlin at the same time? Will Germany punch through into the Middle East and have extra pieces to defend Berlin on the turn of decision? The minor theaters success or failure constrict or expand the German ability to go past Turn 6 if needs be or make it an “all or nothing” affair if the Allies are winning out elsewhere…

@VictoryFirst Kwaspek also ran that forum post by me, but I agree with the idea that changing the victory conditions is too much of a deviation to the point where you’d be entering “house rules” territory.

@DoManMacgee just seeing all the balance comments now. The handful of games played without the bid but WITH the sub still saw an anemic western allies response. Just one less boat has a profound affect out there but not so much in favor of the allies and the Germans still seems to win ‘most’ of the games. @Ragnell804 and @VictoryFirst have sorta moved on towards recommending the removal of an infantry in Romania as a third adjustment to try to draw it down to 50/50. I tend to agree with them.

But I’m hesitant and am still on the uboat removal AND 12 IPC removal. @DoManMacgee would you like to play a game where I am Germany and have both restrictions? We’ll keep track of the dice and all - always appreciate a good pressure test.

@The_Good_Captain Yeah that’s fine. I have a game in-progress with VF with the restrictions:

No Special Cash Advance (SCA) for Germany
One German sub from Bay of Biscay removed from starting setup
One German infantry from Germany removed from starting setup

I am currently on-track to lose but had some critical battles not go my way. I also tried deviating from the game-plan I had previously set up so that may also be part of it.

@DoManMacgee where do you want the allied bid? all in ukraine?

@The_Good_Captain Yeah sounds good.