USA Crush-Turtle or Die

@shadowhawk said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@shadowhawk said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@SuperbattleshipYamato

Working with only pacific does change the game a lot.
There is a lot less US income but also only 1 place to spend it all so the US would not be surprised that quickly.

This strat relies on surprise and getting your opponent offguard.
Just a buy of subs round 1 and 2 will finish off any ideas germany will have in the atlantic really quickly. And the same for japan.

I think this is not a strategy by itself. I think you set up for a possibility, and if certain things occur then you try it. But you don’t go into a game planning to do this.

Its something the axis have to plan for and execute from round 1. Thats the whole point. Germany investing heavy into navy 2 rounds basically locks you into this strat.
Japan attacking hawai and buying fleet also pushes towards this.

I disagree about being locked into anything. Your plans should be fluid and change with what is developing. Yes if you attack right away things are baked in. I don’t attack J1 or J2 usually.

@squirecam

Personally speaking from the last game, Japan did have a chance to rush towards Australia early from Hawaii if they desired.

But yeah, there are generally limited options based on the strategy. Your plan should be adaptable, but thar doesn’t mean it can be.

And if you don’t attack J1 or J2, then this strategy won’t work.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

Personally speaking from the last game, Japan did have a chance to rush towards Australia early from Hawaii if they desired.

But yeah, there are generally limited options based on the strategy. Your plan should be adaptable, but thar doesn’t mean it can be.

And if you don’t attack J1 or J2, then this strategy won’t work.

Please explain how not attacking J1 defeats the strategy of attacking the USA.

@squirecam

The plan shown above seems to depend heavily on Japan attacking early when the US is arguably at its weakest, alongside ample coordination with the European Axis to conduct a one-two punch. As evident in the games posted above, a delay of just a few turns closes the narrow window the Axis have for a truly decisive victory.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

The plan shown above seems to depend heavily on Japan attacking early when the US is arguably at its weakest, alongside ample coordination with the European Axis to conduct a one-two punch. As evident in the games posted above, a delay of just a few turns closes the narrow window the Axis have for a truly decisive victory.

So when you attack J1 you lose surprise and allow the USA to get its bonus. Combined with Japan not getting money in China and the UK and AZ getting money islands and bonuses, you are really short on income.

Not attacking limits the USA to 3 units per factory. No bonuses. They can’t screen in Hawaii. And they can’t advance in the Atlantic.

If your goal is to take the USA, set up for it. Don’t give them the money advantage.

@squirecam

Fair points. Wanna try it?

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

Fair points. Wanna try it?

So I’m not trying to “take” the USA. I’m just trying to eliminate the US fleet if given the chance so that an invasion is theoretically possible should things play out that way and with what happens in the Atlantic. I’m also not saying you can win by turn 4. So I’m not sure that a game proves anything since you “know” I’m trying for a U.S. invasion. But I’m willing to run a test here by giving you my moves and you can post your round by round response.

Assume the follow for the first test:

1 - use BM mod. Since people say a 60+ bid is needed I don’t want this test invalidated because we are using a smaller bid.
2- use a 16 or 18 bid. Fighter Scotland and a des/sub somewhere. I suggest a sub in med for an assumed Taranto.
3 - Russia can’t stack Amur. Otherwise Japan would just attack them and the purpose of the test is lost.
4- USA should attempt to stay in the pacific. If they flee and just build everything in the Atlantic then Japan should take Hawaii and Australia and try to win that way.
5- I expect you to “win” this since you should stop the US from falling. In a real game the axis would likely break off the attack and do other things. Also the strategy is to be flexible, not to take out the US.
6- I suggest you low luck this or “modify” the results for the average outcome.

With that said, for G1 buy a carrier, destroyer and sub. Use the BB to attack Scotland sea zone with subs and 2/2 planes and retreat. Attack other British sea zone with the same 2 bombers and other air. You want a 70% win rate even with a scramble in 110. Assume sub and des kill each other in 106.

Take France (no air) and southern France with 2 mech tank and fighter. (Yes I know it’s BM mod but there is no Vichy normally so we need to take it rather than Normandy so it’s “normal”) land fighter in Italy. Take Yugoslavia with everything else and land tac in Italy for 3 plane scramble potential in Italy. Move troops in germany to Slovakia but you can keep 2 back if you like for transport next turn. Drop Denmark troops in Norway. Activate neutrals.

For Japan buy carrier and transport. Take the 4 Chinese territories and Okinawa transport to take Soviet far east. You can use bombers but you should want 8 air in Japan, 2 more on the carrier and 6 on carriers in Hawaii. That should leave bombers and one fighter/tac combo left for China attacks if necessary. You want to have 44 ipc next turn.

I would normally stack in Carolines. Normally this allows for Japan to switch on J2 or J3 and take the money islands. But since we are “taking” US, move everything else to Hawaii. Leave the transports back though (normally in Carolines too). What fleet can’t reach stacks in Japan sea zone.

Run through that a bit and tell me your response. If you Taranto, do not scramble. If Taranto, Italy should take out French fleet. If you don’t Taranto, then we will discuss.

@squirecam

Then what you’re proposing is a different strategy with completely different parameters and goals than the original one posted at the beginning. While that’s perfectly fine, you’ll have to admit that this is the case and that what you propose may not necessarily work in the parameters and goals in the original post.

That being said, I’m happy to test it out. I’ll tell you my moves in a moment.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

Then what you’re proposing is a different strategy with completely different parameters and goals than the original one posted at the beginning. While that’s perfectly fine, you’ll have to admit that this is the case and that what you propose may not necessarily work in the parameters and goals in the original post.

That being said, I’m happy to test it out. I’ll tell you my moves in a moment.

So I never claimed that my strategy was designed to take USA. I specifically said it wasnt. What I said was you can still execute the original strategy if you dont attack J1. Staging in Hawaii does allow you to do that. USA cant block and cannot stack there or it is destroyed.

You are not in any worse position than if you attacked J1. Moreover since USA is limited to 3 units, you wont have a large force of screening subs and destroyers.

You can simply do what Germany and Italy did in your game if you like. But if you want to follow the original script, then I suggest that you buy 2 carriers on J2, and then attack hawaii. You will see you are really in no worse of a position, and in a better position in alot of ways.

@squirecam

Obviously I’ll send a turn by the other Allies later, but I thought it would be helpful to show you the result so far (it would also give you the chance to correct any movements since some parts, such as orders for the Japanese forces on the mainland, particularly the Kwantung and Korea Armies, weren’t written and I wasn’t sure what to do):

Test Game Japan Turn Complete.tsvg

Also at the end of all of it there are 9 planes in Japan, not 8 (there’s 6 in the Hawaii sea zone and 2 in sea zone 6).

@SuperbattleshipYamato

I’ll review.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

Obviously I’ll send a turn by the other Allies later, but I thought it would be helpful to show you the result so far (it would also give you the chance to correct any movements since some parts, such as orders for the Japanese forces on the mainland, particularly the Kwantung and Korea Armies, weren’t written and I wasn’t sure what to do):

Test Game Japan Turn Complete.tsvg

Also at the end of all of it there are 9 planes in Japan, not 8 (there’s 6 in the Hawaii sea zone and 2 in sea zone 6).

So I would have moved the Korea units up into manchuria and unloaded into Korea with the transports.

@squirecam

I apologize if my gameplay wasn’t top notch, I’ve only ever played Balanced Mod once in my life (against myself on TripleA).

Test Game France Turn Complete.tsvg

Let me know if you’re dissatisfied with how I played the Italian turn.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

I apologize if my gameplay wasn’t top notch, I’ve only ever played Balanced Mod once in my life (against myself on TripleA).

Test Game France Turn Complete.tsvg

Let me know if you’re dissatisfied with how I played the Italian turn.

So the issue here is that we are “trying” to get the USA. Having Italy move the other direction is counter productive to that end. Italy should be taking Gibraltar in that case, not Greece. In which case, they would buy another transport, and not a fighter. If we are to continue testing, I think we need to redo Italy. I just assumed you would head West to follow the strategy, so sorry if I was unclear.

But as it stands, I see that my changes have put the axis in a better spot for J2. USA collected 20 dollars less. Japan has 7 more and can buy a carrier/4 transports rather than 3. Japan is in a better economic position for attacking the USA than in the original J1 attack.

Do you agree? If so, that was all I was trying to establish. That not going on J1 does not prohibit the strategy. Its actually better NOT to attack as USA is far weaker than it would otherwise be.

If we are continuing, move Italy west in Africa. Take Gibraltar. Take Tunisia. Move the troops in Northern Italy East and the troops in Southern Italy north. Albania troops also east. Germany will take Greece. Buy 1 transport, save the rest.

Also, just FYI, you should have retreated the German BB from 111. Doing so would have healed it and Germany would have it for later use. If you play this strategy, you should retreat. Let the British BB flee damaged. Its no biggie as this is just a test and the purpose was to show Japan was in a stronger position without attacking.

@squirecam

Test Game France Turn Complete.tsvg

Redid it. I would like to continue playing it out.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

Test Game France Turn Complete.tsvg

Redid it. I would like to continue playing it out.

So at this point I would break off the US attack in the atlantic and just do a sea lion. I’d kill the 3 dd with fleet and 3 air and in london You only have 3 infantry, 4 aa and a bomber. None of the other british units can get back. I can have 25 units for a G3 attack. The odds of a london attack succeeding according to the calc are at 100%.

I’d move a few tanks back to make sure I had 20 units and buy 2 inf and 9 transports. But this game wont be testing a US triple attack anymore, which was the purpose.

If we are to play this out, the game should be restarted from the beginning. But before you do, I’d like to know the purpose of why you bought 3 DD and moved the units away from London.

Also, when you test, you have to play it straight. As an example, I did say not to scramble into Taranto. But you only brought units that would have a 1% chance of winning if a scramble had occurred. You cant do that. That is favoring the allies. You have to bring sufficient forces to prevent a reasonable scramble. Otherwise you arent testing it properly.

@squirecam said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

If we are to play this out, the game should be restarted from the beginning. But before you do, I’d like to know the purpose of why you bought 3 DD and moved the units away from London.

As mentioned in the original post (and that my first test game confimred), one way to signifcantly delay and hurt German progress in attacking the US would be to buy naval units. It’s tough for the Germans to have adaquete income to both have enough transports to assault the US and defeat the Allied fleets. On second thought, I’m not interested in continuing or restarting. I’ll just playtest a Pacific 1940 game by myself using your strategy and see what happens.

Also, when you test, you have to play it straight. As an example, I did say not to scramble into Taranto. But you only brought units that would have a 1% chance of winning if a scramble had occurred. You cant do that. That is favoring the allies. You have to bring sufficient forces to prevent a reasonable scramble. Otherwise you arent testing it properly.

Sorry about that.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in [USA Crush-Turtle or Die]

Sorry about that.

No problem. I just wanted an accurate test.

As to pacific only, US is limited to 17 dollars and there are no russians holding manchuria back. So that changes alot.

@squirecam

2024-5-31-World-War-II-Pacific-1940-2nd-Edition Human.tsvg

Played another game. Both sides made mistakes, though I think the Allies made more egregious ones. That being said, I will admit your strategy was marginally beneficial to Japan. However, I’m not sure when and where in the game could Japan have refocussed their sights on Australia and the South Pacific to adapt to America’s growing capabilities. They were in a position where moving their forces would’ve taken far too long for little benefit.

Bottom line is, though, in 3 games played, all 3 have the Axis set to lose.

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in USA Crush-Turtle or Die:

@squirecam

2024-5-31-World-War-II-Pacific-1940-2nd-Edition Human.tsvg

Played another game. Both sides made mistakes, though I think the Allies made more egregious ones. That being said, I will admit your strategy was marginally beneficial to Japan. However, I’m not sure when and where in the game could Japan have refocussed their sights on Australia and the South Pacific to adapt to America’s growing capabilities. They were in a position where moving their forces would’ve taken far too long for little benefit.

Bottom line is, though, in 3 games played, all 3 have the Axis set to lose.

I think the US must be left alone as long as possible before the war starts and both sides are in position, if possible, to execute the strategy.