Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

3. MAP + friendly naval units can force moving enemy submarines into naval combat on the enemy turn, correct?

The MAP aircraft alone can force that if it wishes and does not need friendly units (rules 8.7 + 8.9).

@noneshallpass It’s not that I “need” friendly units. I “want” them! I understand that the MAP alone can force the submarine into a fight. And I get that a MAP + DD can engage a submarine in combat on the MAP player’s turn. But what I wanted to ensure (before making another video and causing confusion), is that on the submarine player’s turn, the MAP player can force the submarine to fight all the naval forces in a sea zone if that submarine moves in.

On the MAP player’s turn, they cannot do this. They can’t move say 10 surface ships and a MAP into a sea zone and force a sub pack to fight them. They can only go after subs with MAP + DD pairs (at best).

But on the sub player’s turn, if a sub moves into a sea zone with 10 BB’s, 20 CL’s and one MAP, then the MAP can stop them and force them to fight the armada. That’s my understanding.

@noneshallpass said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.

Do others agree? If so, very powerful! 8 )

@hbg-gw-enthusiast I would believe so. You are forcing to subs to attack you. Thus I think since you are the defender, everyone gets to fight.

@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast I would believe so. You are forcing to subs to attack you. Thus I think since you are the defender, everyone gets to fight.

Thanks for the confirmation! Didn’t want to misinform others!

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Remember, no matter who initiated combat, if it is your turn, you are the attacker. Thus, if a sub moved into a zone with MAP that chose to engage, then the sub would be “attacking” and suffer the consequences of that.

@trig

@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Remember, no matter who initiated combat, if it is your turn, you are the attacker. Thus, if a sub moved into a zone with MAP that chose to engage, then the sub would be “attacking” and suffer the consequences of that.

I’m not sure that’s correct. On Page 35 of the rules, there is an example in the lower right bottom of the page. “…Since it’s the German player’s turn, they will use their defense values against the sub…”

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
In the glossary, it says that attacker is the one who is taking their turn. Even if the UK started the combat by choosing to stop the sub, the Germans are still the attacker.
The UK plane would be on defense and use its defense value.

@trig You are absolutely correct and we agree. I had a reading comprehension failure with what you first wrote. We are on the same page. Should have known if I was thinking you were wrong, I should have paused a beat and reread. 8 )

The idea that the MAP aircraft + all defending naval units get to fire at each submarine entering is really bothering me and feels wrong.

Like I said above, if four submarines enter a sea zone with a single plane flying MAP, I feel the MAP aircraft should be able to stop them from further movement, but then get just one roll total to kill potentially one submarine, then the rest withdraw/submerge.

Noneshallpass and Trig argue that if four submarines enter the sea zone, the MAP aircraft gets four rolls, one for each. The way to conceptualize their position is each submarine enters the sea zone, one by one, and the MAP aircraft gets a chance to spot/destroy each one.

But then we add in friendly naval units for the MAP aircraft. If there are 5 BB’s, 5 CA’s, 5 DD’s, and 1 CVE with a fighter being attacked by 100 submarines, with Noneshallpass and Trig’s method, the BB/CC/DD/CVE force defeats the subs piecemeal, one by one. I must not be understanding.

My conceptualization is the MAP stops as many naval units as it wants, then we proceed to one giant naval battle. So if 4 subs enter, the MAP can stop them all, but then gets 1 roll.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast
Remember, those subs are attacking. This means that you would resolve that battle like normal. Those subs would attack or decide to submerge, and then any Defending ships would get to shot beach. After that, the sub could decide to submerge if they survived. All the MAP does if force the subs to fight, just like a destroyer in G40.

The FAQ says:
“Q: The rules say subs can’t decline combat if there is a plane on Maritime Air Patrol present, so, that means that every single ship in that sea zone gets to fire on the sub, if an aircraft on MAP is present?
A: If you attack the sub:
Only the aircraft on MAP (+ any optional paired Destroyer may fire at the sub)
If the sub attacks you :
All ships / aircraft may fire at the sub”

According to 0.9
“The Attacker is the player who is currently taking a turn.”

Thus, if a sub is moving through a sea zone, and is stopped by a plane on MAP, any and all ships in the sea zone would get to shoot at the attacking sub. This is the same no matter if there is one sub or 20.

@trig Thank you very much for your patience, Trig! Here’s the question I originally posed:

Now what happens if four submarines enter the sea zone with an aircraft on MAP? Does the aircraft get one shot at each submarine? Could someone argue that only one submarine can be engaged and the others may continue movement? My understanding is the MAP stops all four submarines if the aircraft chooses engagement, but the aircraft only gets one roll to try and hit one of the submarines.

I get the whole attacker/defender thing. Since the four submarines are entering the sea zone with MAP, the MAP has the opportunity to force them to fight a combat. You wrote, “This means that you would resolve that battle like normal.” Yeah, that’s my position. Normal wouldn’t be one attack against each sub. Normal would be the aircraft only gets one roll (i.e. a sea plane rolls at “1” on a D12) to try and hit one of the submarines, right?

@hbg-gw-enthusiast No, remember, this is normal as in the subs attacking. You would place all forces, the four subs, and whatever ships or planes are in the sea zone, on the battle board and do combat. The subs could chose to submerge, but every ship or plane gets a shot.

Let’s look at a example-
Say 4 German subs moved into the English channel.
There are 3 destroyers, 1 heavy cruiser, and a light carrier with a fighter there.
The UK player chooses to stop the subs and engage in combat.
All forces are placed on the battleboard.
The German subs each chose to fight or submerge. 2 chose each.
The 2 subs fighting roll and get one hit. this is not first strike, and the UK elects to lose a destroyer.
The UK player then shots back with all his ships’ defense values and gets 3 hits.
The German player loses 3 subs- the 2 that fought, and one that was submerging.
The lone surviving sub submerges and the battle is over.

I hope that makes sense.

@trig @trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Say 4 German subs moved into the English channel.
There are 3 destroyers, 1 heavy cruiser, and a light carrier with a fighter there.
The UK player chooses to stop the subs and engage in combat.
All forces are placed on the battleboard.
The German subs each chose to fight or submerge. 2 chose each.
The 2 subs fighting roll and get one hit. this is not first strike, and the UK elects to lose a destroyer.
The UK player then shots back with all his ships’ defense values and gets 3 hits.
The German player loses 3 subs- the 2 that fought, and one that was submerging.
The lone surviving sub submerges and the battle is over.

I agree entirely with your description!
So, back on page 2, I posed a similar analogy, just with a MAP and a DD as the defending fleet with four submarines moving into the sea zone.

Noneshallpass wrote, “I believe that the 1 MAP + 1 DD would get a shot at each sub in that zone.”

I was surprised and asked for confirmation that this was true, because it would be very powerful.

You responded, “I would believe so.”

I thought and thought about it, and it didn’t make sense. So, I wrote, “The idea that the MAP aircraft + all defending naval units get to fire at each submarine entering is really bothering me and feels wrong.”

In order to make it clear that I meant it doesn’t make sense that the MAP + defending naval units get to fire a round at each sub in the zone, I gave an analogy of the 100 subs entering one by one. Instead of MAP + defending naval units getting one shot at each sub, I thought it should work as you describe, above.

When all is said and done, you and I totally agree on how it is resolved when submarines combat move into sea zones with MAP. I feel ready now to make another video. Thanks and so sorry for the confusion!

@hbg-gw-enthusiast Correct, No harm done! You will never fight more than one battle with one unit.

@HBG-GW-Enthusiast Sorry if I confused you with my previous comment. I think that when you consider that one MAP is enough to stop all subs and then you place all of them on the battleboard as @Trig pointed out, it makes things simpler.

I does not mean that the MAP and DD will actually get a shot at each sub, considering the possible option to submerge, just that they are part of at least one round of naval combat and that is enough to stop them in that zone. The extra subs just don’t get a free pass because they outnumber the MAP aircraft.

At least my dubious answer got you to clarify things!

@noneshallpass Ha! You are the best! This conversation hopefully will help others! I agree that many of these examples aren’t going to come up because the submarine player will seek juicier prey elsewhere.

General Hand Grenade has a video on Japanese Carriers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AaJxeTalbs

At 19:36, he proposes an interesting scenario where there is a submarine in a sea zone and a CV with two aircraft two spaces away. He states that you are not allowed to pounce on the submarine by moving the CV into that sea zone, and declaring the carrier-based aircraft are on MAP to engage the submarine.

Question #1
If there is an enemy submarine in a sea zone and I hypothetically move four destroyers into that sea zone, would I not move them during combat movement? There may not be combat (because the submarine will likely stay submerged), but since there is a chance the submarine will engage, do I not make this move during the combat movement phase?

Question #2
If I add a CV to the four destroyers and want to move the fleet to the sea zone containing the submarine, am I allowed to bring the CV, or only the four destroyers? One could argue that since the CV has an attack value of zero, it cannot move to the sea zone with the submarine because it cannot participate in combat. But on the other hand, if you don’t allow them to move as one fleet, then the CV cannot move with the destroyers into the sea zone two spaces away because the destroyers move there during combat movement, then the submarine declines combat, and then the CV can’t move there during non-combat because the space contains an enemy submarine. It seems that even though the CV has an attack value of zero, it is allowed to move into the submarine-containing sea zone with the destroyers.

Question #3
Now, put aircraft on the CV. The CV, its aircraft, and four destroyers move into the submarine-containing sea zone. Carrier-based aircraft may act as if on MAP. Can the two aircraft pair with two of the four destroyers to attack the submarine?

Question #4
Now, subtract the destroyers. Can the CV and its aircraft move into the submarine-containing sea zone?

I would propose the following errata which would solve my above question:

Page 35, 8.7 Maritime Air Patrol, Carrier-Based Aircraft, 2nd paragraph, “For game purposes, aircraft on Carriers may always act as if on Maritime Air Patrol.” Should be changed to, “For game purposes, aircraft on Carriers may act as if on Maritime Air Patrol when they are the Defending player.”

To @HBG-GW-Enthusiast

Question 1 : Yes you move these destroyers during combat, but the owner of the submarine has the option to decline combat.

Question 2 : You have to move all your ships during either combat or non-combat. A CV has an attack value of zero but still can be taken as casualty, so you can move it during combat move as any other vessel.

In your example, nothing prevents you from moving it also during non-combat, as the submarine will not have the option to engage during non-combat.

Question 3 : The MAP range restictions apply to carrier-based aircraft. That is only possible if the CV and planes were one sea zone away.

Question 4 : Yes they can. Same range restrictions apply to MAP.