Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships

@hbg-gw-enthusiast That is correct, and the question becomes when does the sub submerge.

The choice to submerge can happen after the attacker has rolled his dice and the casualties seen, but before the sub gets his defensive die roll.

So if there are no hits from the attacker, the sub will submerge without a die roll. If there are hits, then the sub will get his one die roll.

@sjelso See below.

@sjelso said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@manincellv Ok…I thought the sub forfeits its roll in order to dive/submerge and get away.

Yes, sorry he does forfeit his roll.

@manincellv Wrong, a sub may submerge or roll. However, it gets to wait to see if IT is hit before it decides. If the sub gets hit it obviously is no submerging and is taking its final shot.

@trig correct!

@sjelso Think of MAP this way;

1. You would need your aircraft that have a MAP range of 1 to be within 1 space of the intended sub target when you begin your turn in order to attack him. Whether you move your plane 1 space or your carrier 1 space to attack him is irrelevant.
2. Seaplanes and Medium Bombers with long range aircraft tech can move up to 2 spaces to attack the sub because they have a MAP of 2.
3. The only thing you can pair 1:1 to attack the sub with is a destroyer.
4. If you miss the sub he can submerge. If you hit him he might as well fire back since he’s already going to die anyway. He can hit the destroyer but he can’t hit the plane. If there’s no destroyer don’t bother rolling the sub.

It’s always a good idea to have a destroyer present with an aircraft carrier when in open waters. If the sub attacks the carrier and gets a lucky hit then the planes will die if they have no legal landing space.

In regular naval combat any naval unit with an attack value can hit a sub if he fires at your ships. He has chosen top be in the fight and is open to being hit. He can either roll or submerge in any round of combat, but once he submerges he can’t pop up later in the same battle to fight again. He’s done after he submerges.

Advanced subs can only be hit by the planes on MAP. Destroyers have no ability to pair with the planes against them. If the Germans develop Advanced subs then you will be well advised to develop ASW.

I don’t blame you for not doing any convoying in your first few games. I did the same thing. Once you start though you will realize the value of it and discover that it really is a game within a game. It takes awhile to learn how to incorporate all of the aspects of GW into your game effectively. I’m just now learning how to be more effective with Strategic Bombing.

@sjelso Yup, subs are hard to kill, especially advanced subs.

However by the time adv. subs arrive, odds are there are long range aircraft facing them, which means they are facing medium bombers with a MAP range of 2.

@generalhandgrenade i read all this and I’m still confused.

Turn 1 1939 setup, British attack Italian navy in Mediterranean, do Brits need to deploy a fighter to MAP to make sure subs are eliminated? Is there a separate battle for other naval units? Please post examples and thank you.

@loki17 your example is somewhat improbable, as the UK is not at war with Italy in 1939 and can only declare war to a nation has declared war on another nation during the game (G.B. NRS v3.5).

However, in the event the Italy declared war before the Britsh turn, if the British attack the Italian fleet on 1939 turn one, this should be per naval combat rules (rule 9.6 and Table 9-4), but the submarines may decline combat unless you place aircraft on MAP (8.9).

In the box on page 37, it specifies that the attacking player will declare if he puts aircraft on MAP first and then the defending player will declare what he does with his subs.

However, if the Italians want to use their subs for defense, then I don’t see why you would need MAP, as they will take part in the naval combat. As @GeneralHandGrenade mentionned above “He has chosen top be in the fight and is open to being hit”.

However, rule 8.9 regarding submarines mentions:

“Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to Attack, kill them during convoy-raiding or hunt them using your aircraft on Maritime Air Patrol (paired with destroyers).”

Considering the previous comments, I feel that this note is incomplete, as you can also kill sumarines if the defending player chooses to have them take part in naval combat and does not submerge them before they are destroyed.

Here is my understanding of MAP (this is from some discussion in the comments section of Winter Solace 13.4).

8.9, Page 36, Submarines: “A submarine may elect to participate in or decline in regular naval combat. The only time it cannot decline is when there is an enemy aircraft on MAP… Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to attack, kill them during convoy-raiding [where you either have an escort or have developed Advanced ASW] or hunt them using your aircraft on MAP…”

You move aircraft out on MAP during the combat movement phase, per 8.2, During Combat Movement, Examples of Combat Movement Include: “Moving aircraft on MAP.”

When you leave MAP, that counts as non-combat movement, per 8.7, Page 35, MAP, Ending a Patrol: “An aircraft on MAP may opt to return to a land zone or Carrier using its patrol range during non-combat movement.”

[Section edited with correction from Trig, below].

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Here is my understanding of MAP (this is from some discussion in the comments section of Winter Solace 13.4).
All corrections in bold. Read them.
8.9, Page 36, Submarines: “A submarine may elect to participate in or decline in regular naval combat. The only time it cannot decline is when there is an enemy aircraft on MAP… Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to attack, kill them during convoy-raiding [where you either have an escort or have developed Advanced ASW] or hunt them using your aircraft on MAP…”
Correct

You move aircraft out on MAP during the combat movement phase, per 8.2, During Combat Movement, Examples of Combat Movement Include: “Moving aircraft on MAP.”
Correct
When you leave MAP, that counts as non-combat movement, per 8.7, Page 35, MAP, Ending a Patrol: “An aircraft on MAP may opt to return to a land zone or Carrier using its patrol range during non-combat movement.”
Also correct
If you move a plane out on MAP during the combat movement phase, you cannot then move it back to land during non-combat movement of the same turn, because a unit cannot move during both combat movement and non-combat movement, per 10.1, Page 45, Non-Combat Movement: “During non-combat movement you may move units that did not move during combat movement.”
Wrong. Planes may move in both combat and non combat. Look at at is it this way. You say that if you made a combat move, then you cannot make a noncom. Being on MAP is a combat move. Thus by you reckoning, you could NEVER land, as you would have always made a combat move. That is obviously not the way this works.
So the way to conceptualize this is that attacking submarines is nothing at all like attacking land units or surface ships. It is months of tedious flight patterns where you locate nothing at all, but then you stumble upon a u-boat and there are a few minutes of adrenaline release. When you go after submarines with MAP, it isn’t like a sortie where you fly a mission bombing and then return to the airbase. You move the aircraft out into the sea zone and it is staying there for 6 months hunting submarines. If you want to pull it off MAP, you have to do it next turn during non-combat movement, so it will miss the opportunity to fly another combat mission that turn. In a way, you only get use of the aircraft every other turn when you go on MAP (although it is protecting the convoy line during your enemy’s next turn, before you return it).
Rember, you are not flying nonstop for 6 months. You are flying a patrol, returning, flying a patrol, returning, etc. You can stop that patrol at any point and head off the prepare for another assignment. It makes sense that you could change after one turn. Otherwise, you would need to go on MAP tun 1, go off MAP turn 2, then go back on MAP turn 3, just to hit another sub next door. In reality, you would just change you patrol pattern. There is no need to waste a YEAR, just to patrol for one sub. It makes sense that you would patrol, if you don’t find thing you could leaven and then go search somewhere else for another 6 months.
So, I encourage you to not be too hasty in your generalization. It makes sense that, like other planes, aircraft on MAP could move in both combat and noncombat.

@trig said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

@hbg-gw-enthusiast said in Subs, Destroyers, MAP and other ships:

Here is my understanding of MAP (this is from some discussion in the comments section of Winter Solace 13.4).
All corrections in bold. Read them.
8.9, Page 36, Submarines: “A submarine may elect to participate in or decline in regular naval combat. The only time it cannot decline is when there is an enemy aircraft on MAP… Note: This effectively means that to kill submarines you either have to wait for them to attack, kill them during convoy-raiding [where you either have an escort or have developed Advanced ASW] or hunt them using your aircraft on MAP…”
Correct

You move aircraft out on MAP during the combat movement phase, per 8.2, During Combat Movement, Examples of Combat Movement Include: “Moving aircraft on MAP.”
Correct
When you leave MAP, that counts as non-combat movement, per 8.7, Page 35, MAP, Ending a Patrol: “An aircraft on MAP may opt to return to a land zone or Carrier using its patrol range during non-combat movement.”
Also correct
If you move a plane out on MAP during the combat movement phase, you cannot then move it back to land during non-combat movement of the same turn, because a unit cannot move during both combat movement and non-combat movement, per 10.1, Page 45, Non-Combat Movement: “During non-combat movement you may move units that did not move during combat movement.”
Wrong. Planes may move in both combat and non combat. Look at at is it this way. You say that if you made a combat move, then you cannot make a noncom. Being on MAP is a combat move. Thus by you reckoning, you could NEVER land, as you would have always made a combat move. That is obviously not the way this works.
So the way to conceptualize this is that attacking submarines is nothing at all like attacking land units or surface ships. It is months of tedious flight patterns where you locate nothing at all, but then you stumble upon a u-boat and there are a few minutes of adrenaline release. When you go after submarines with MAP, it isn’t like a sortie where you fly a mission bombing and then return to the airbase. You move the aircraft out into the sea zone and it is staying there for 6 months hunting submarines. If you want to pull it off MAP, you have to do it next turn during non-combat movement, so it will miss the opportunity to fly another combat mission that turn. In a way, you only get use of the aircraft every other turn when you go on MAP (although it is protecting the convoy line during your enemy’s next turn, before you return it).
Rember, you are not flying nonstop for 6 months. You are flying a patrol, returning, flying a patrol, returning, etc. You can stop that patrol at any point and head off the prepare for another assignment. It makes sense that you could change after one turn. Otherwise, you would need to go on MAP tun 1, go off MAP turn 2, then go back on MAP turn 3, just to hit another sub next door. In reality, you would just change you patrol pattern. There is no need to waste a YEAR, just to patrol for one sub. It makes sense that you would patrol, if you don’t find thing you could leaven and then go search somewhere else for another 6 months.
So, I encourage you to not be too hasty in your generalization. It makes sense that, like other planes, aircraft on MAP could move in both combat and noncombat.

Super helpful and this makes a lot of sense! Thank you again, Trig!

@hbg-gw-enthusiast You are welcome

MAP may need its own Quick Refererence Sheet with multiple examples given or a new video by @GeneralHandGrenade

Destroyers negate the first strike ability of submarines.

Question #1: On the battle board, submarines have a target selection of 1. Do they have target selection?

Question #2: If they do have target selection, do destroyers negate the target selection?

My understanding is 1, yes and 2, no.

@hbg-gw-enthusiast You are correct. They eretta’d the target selection on subs.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/36686/convoy-raiding-convoy-escorting-and-maritime-air-patrol-map-in-global-war-1936-1945

Page 35, Maritime Air Patrol, Starting a Patrol: “Move aircraft into position within range and place a Maritime Air Patrol marker underneath.”

Does anyone do this? First, is there even a MAP marker we can purchase? Second, do we really need to do this? If there is a plane flying in a sea zone, it’s on MAP, right? Third, how does it work if someone wants to fly MAP in a sea zone where you are also going to have naval combat. Say you are moving 2 BB’s, 2 CA’s and 2 CL’s into a sea zone containing an enemy BB, CA, and CL. You also fly a sea plane into that sea zone on MAP and decline to participate in the naval combat. So you fight out the naval battle without the sea plane, correct?