I want to make this post prior to getting too deeply invloved in my first game, b/c there are some observations/thoughts I’d like to make and then see if they hold true.
#1 - Despite the new units/values and territories the game will still play very close to 2nd or 3rd Ed.
#1A - The game still revolves around Germany and Russia
Barring some unorthodox play, dice rolling, or mistake by your opponent, Germany and Russia should be the #1 targets and anything that detracts from that will cost you the game against an experienced player.
#2 - Navies are still largely irrelevant. (direct correllation to #1A)
This relates directly to what I have seen for many G1 purchases in the games posted and argued here. Obviously I haven’t completed a game yet or played as the Axis, but I have a very strong hunch about G1 purchases. 8-)
#3 - India is also largely irrelevant.
While it is nice to have as the UK, any significant attempt to hold is a waste. What is more important is to put those units to a better use, whether that is going to Afr, fortifying in Per, or retreating so you can counter a weak move by the Japanese into Ind. As the Allies the more time you get Japan fiddling around in SE Asia the better. And as Japan, take it if it is given, but your most important goal should be to get to Mos.
So far those were the only ones I could think of off the top of my head but should be enough to get the ball rolling. I think it’ll probably take me 2-3 games to really get a feel for how revised shakes out. Maybe these observations are all obvious or already common sense or maybe they aren’t???
Just wanted to state some thoughts before I play.
I will also defend these points, and look forward to possibly being proven wrong or to at least being forced to look at things differently after a few games.
But I have a real strong hunch right now, that I can employ much of my 2nd Ed type of play and not lose a beat when playing revised. 8-)
Darth, you are correct that usign 2nd Ed concepts will go a long way to success at Revised.
There are however some nuances to Revised that make things a bit different (look at Octo’s success as Japan based on the moved Russian IC as a good example).
The rest… well, those I hope to teach you some of in a future game :-)
ild hold off on saying navies are irrelvant as well. Every side but Russia has been given more boats to play with, and if used well, many interesting things can be done with them. Also the 2 hit Battleships really give you a feel of having and protecting your capital ships
while it is disappointing to me that india becomes such an easily conqured territory, unlike in the first, that doesnt mean that it doesnt become an important territory that often exchanges hands.
revised offers many more strategies than 3rd edition, and makes the Russia/Germ, the Atlantic, and the pacific theatres much more interesting
personally, ill never go back to 3rd edition
#2 - Navies are still largely irrelevant. (direct correllation to #1A)
This relates directly to what I have seen for many G1 purchases in the games posted and argued here. Obviously I haven’t completed a game yet or played as the Axis, but I have a very strong hunch about G1 purchases.  8-)Â
You are truly mistaken about the navies, although your other assessments are pretty accurate. You use G1 purchases as your example, I assume you mean that there is only one or a few options viable for Germany. That could not have been more wrong the way I see it. Germany can buy almost anything and make it work.
Buy all inf. Sure, probably works. Nice defense, making a long-lasting game depending on Japan to crack Moscow(which it will).
Buy an AC. Saves your baltic fleet at the expense of some territory at the eastern front. Might pay off.
Buy 3+ trns. Threatens UK, saves your baltic fleet.
Buy 2+ bombers. Seriously puts the brakes on US which will have to guard all their trannies with capital ships every round.
Buy all arm. Will make the allies sweat and Russia crumble. Pray Japan can follow suit and you’ll have a quick victory.
Buy 4 figs. Fortress Europe, you’ll be a tough nut to crack.
Buy a BB and subs. You won’t get away with that one…
I want to make this post prior to getting too deeply invloved in my first game, b/c there are some observations/thoughts I’d like to make and then see if they hold true.
#1 - Despite the new units/values and territories the game will still play very close to 2nd or 3rd Ed.
Incorrect. There is now a safe spot northwest of UK where a fleet can be built out of range of German fighters. There are a ton of other cute map tricks. Germany can no longer storm Africa first turn. Etc. etc. etc. Add them all up, and it plays rather differently.
#1A - The game still revolves around Germany and Russia
Yes. But Japan is far more powerful this time around; it expands like mad.
#2 - Navies are still largely irrelevant. (direct correllation to #1A)
Incorrect. Now, the UK should concentrate on building a transport fleet to move infantry into Europe. The Allies must have a strong navy to protect those transports. Germany requires a small suicide navy and air to kill the Allied transports for two crucial turns. Etc. etc.
#3 - India is also largely irrelevant.
While it is nice to have as the UK, any significant attempt to hold is a waste. What is more important is to put those units to a better use, whether that is going to Afr, fortifying in Per, or retreating so you can counter a weak move by the Japanese into Ind. As the Allies the more time you get Japan fiddling around in SE Asia the better. And as Japan, take it if it is given, but your most important goal should be to get to Mos.
Actually, I thought India was important in Classical. But in Revised, I think trying to hold India with Allies is a waste.
You will change your style of play, or get hammered against good players.
Thanks for the responses.
My point about navies is they only serve 1 purpose, to get troops to where they need to go. This is the same as it has been in 2nd or 3rd.
Don’t get me wrong I think it is cool to have destroyers and some more naval units, however, I just think you need to be very careful about trying to play around with them too much to the point where you lose focus of the main objective, get to Berlin or get to Moscow.
I do think with the Jap-Rus NA about non-aggression could be a cool way to set up a Pacific game with more naval action.
As for game play, the game appears to better balanced so that means the Allies can’t afford as many mistakes, but the dynamic that existed in 2nd ed between Kar-Mos-Novo, still exists only it is Cauc-Mos-Novo in Revised and to me that spells trouble for the Axis if the Allies are played well and take this into account.
I look forward to playing many more games and seeing how Revised really plays out and I’m open to the possibility that my initial observations of the game without playing it could be wrong. :-)
Lack of Naval action?
Indeed….
Thanks for the responses.
My point about navies is they only serve 1 purpose, to get troops to where they need to go. This is the same as it has been in 2nd or 3rd.
Don’t get me wrong I think it is cool to have destroyers and some more naval units, however, I just think you need to be very careful about trying to play around with them too much to the point where you lose focus of the main objective, get to Berlin or get to Moscow.
My idea, too!
and as I mentioned in another thread:
I think lowering the cost of ALL ships and AF would be a nice way to go for having a bit more naval action…
OK, I know it supresses historical accuracy, but it’s still a game!
and one of my future games will be like:
fighter = 7 IPC’s
bomber = 9 IPC’s
sub = 4 IPC’s
destroyer = 6 IPC’s
carrier = 8 IPC’s
battleship = 12 IPC’s
this would be madness as hell :-)
(i know :-P)
but think of what great naval battles you would have, then!!!
naval units would be bought as if never before!
I wonder how the game would turn out :-P
Either that, or increase the money Axis and Allies recieve.
after all: look at one of the main changes of A&A to A&A Revised…
Every country has more IPC’s, 'cause there are more territories and more IPC’s to gain!
and I think this is one of the best changes made in the game!!!
Buf, with that prices, the game would be crazy. Allies would have easy time to build a fleet and do D-Day. Axis would buy lots of aircraft and onslaught Soviet Union. Bombers at 9? No, unit prices are well. The only change i think could work is subs being invisible to aircraft unless destroyer is present (as in A&A Europe). As now, Germany builds few subs as aircraft obliterates them and for cannon fodder trannies as better. The other countries never buy subs in my games.
Navies are vital to the US Japan and UK. Island nations have to have a strong navy to trasport ground units to the action.
yes the game still basically boils down to germany and russia……but it will always be this way because everyone else is an island nation
that said there are other variables to consider
all the ipcs waiting in the south pacific. us doesnt necessary abandon the pacific, especially if japan doesnt do a pearl on j1. i have successfully made manuvers in the south pacific with the us
japan gets greedy on j1. leaves china conquered with minimal forces. ive seen a us ic in sink work pretty well with heavy reinforcement from russia. us and russia going back to back can seriously set back japan
one strat that was interesting was a g1 purchase of 4 figs, then adding 1 fig every round thereafter, this absolutely gave the allies hell for 5 rounds until my opponent made the mistake of splitting his af between w europe and e europe. revised definately has more variables than classic
in a bid game, a g1 purchase of 1 ac and 2 trannies can really make the uk sweat in the early going
in revised ive seen japan fall, britian fall (even though only breifly) and the w usa conquered, never saw any of that in classic unless playing with a complete newbie
darth, one of the biggest changes ive noticed in revised is the flexability of the uk player
ive played the uk well and got them up to 47 ipcs and ive played them poorly getting down to 18 ipcs
lot of variables here with uk
say g1 attack of anglo goes poorely
option is there to combine your sea fleet(with fig surviving in anglo) in sz30 and make japan think twice about hitting you on j1
how bout an ic in anglo-egypt late in the game
japan controlls the pacific, buy an ic, next round put down 2 ac and fly in 4 figs, all of a sudden you have a force in sz34
Darth…
I think you may be over-generalizing when you say that the game simply shifts from Kar-Mos-Novo to Caucu-Mos-Novo.
And the reason I say this is simple…
In Classic, it is up to Germany to crack Karelia, unassited (except perhaps via AF transfer, or troop draw off to other fronts)
In Revised, both Japan and Germany can be pounding on Caucuses AND Russia.
So, the options for joint strike as the Axis are dramatically increased, as well as more varied.
Also, Novo decreases in importance a bit (not completely, but is lessened due to Japan being able to hit Caucuses IC)
True. I can see that as a very real possibility.
Provided Russia hasn’t lost Cauc yet and has some armor and air to attack, they still have the Supply Line adv and can attack from both Russia and Cauc and do serious strafing damage while retreating to the appropriate place.
Like in some of our games in Classic, the expansion of Japan isn’t that important, provided Russia hasn’t lost its Eastern Inf and can retreat and then punch back as Japan gets closer.
Now I’m guessing it is probably harder to do this in Revised then in Classic due to the strength of Germany but I think the tactical retreat in the East will still work for Russia and that you shouldn’t be afraid to punch Germany if they give you an early opportunity. The dynamic may not be cauc-mos-novo maybe it is cauc-mos-kaz or cauc-mos-per or some other 3 ter located basically in the middle of the board, but the dynamic is there. Just like for Ger with WE-Ger-EE/Balk.
Now in Classic I was very comfortable on my own as Russia for the first 4-5 turns giving up a bid of 22-23 IPCs, but I’m not sure Russia has that kind of time in revised. That is what I need to learn, how much time does Russia really have, and how much damage can they do alone before they absolutely need the UK and US.
I can appreciate the flexibily tcnance mentions with UK or that each nation may have more options with several viable strats that can lead to wins, but I just have a hunch if you give this game the time Classic had that it will infact boil down to a handful of strats “experts” use and that bids will increase accordingly similar to Classic but not at the high levels of Classic.
Darth…
One critical thing to bear in mind while you contemplate the defense of Caucuses…
Unlike Karelia in Classic, Caucuses has a build limit of FOUR units.
As far as how much time Russia has…
If all 3 nations (Russia, Germany, Japan) are playing well, then Russia needs help by Turn 5 at the latest. But they need IPC assitance before then, Turn 3 the Allies better be going after German income, or Russia is lost. Russia can be pretty aggressive for 3 turns, both east and west. But, after that they are pretty well spent, and the Allies better be chewing into German income and giving Germany a few other thigns to worry about than Caucuses and West Russia…
@ncscswitch:
Darth…
One critical thing to bear in mind while you contemplate the defense of Caucuses…
Unlike Karelia in Classic, Caucuses has a build limit of FOUR units.
Then you better make sure you are planning far enough in advance, and see when you can/can’t hold it and get out prior to losing your army. :-)
Unless your defense will do more damage to the attacker. If at all possible, you shouldn’t waste troops defending a ter that is obviously going to be overrun.
And that is the other rub in Revised…
Russia has fewer options when she pulls back.
Archangel, West Russia, Caucuses, Kazakh, Novo, and Evenk… larger perimeter for Russia to defend… more areas for the Axis to break through… and less return on investment to push Japan back… and much farther to push to get any income back from Germany…
Looking at the map and the way the territories are laid out, I think there are some very cool things Russia can do if they are forced to fall back to Cauc and Mos.
