Who Wins

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and wait for reinforcements or bait the French into attacking?  The Germans are gong to lose half their units on an attack like that and I agree, the Germans have no chance of winning it.  What is France’s income at about that time?  I think that basic plan is impossible to win as you would be losing more troops than you are reinforcing with.  I think a mistake people are making with the CPs are they are being too aggressive.  What do the Russians typically do in your games after the Germans take Poland, but they aren’t going full force towards Russia (and Austria isn’t going to attack a 40-man stack either)?  Couldn’t the Germans walk up the coast while the Russians hunker down.  At some point they will have to spread out a bit to prevent the loss of all their territory.  I agree with the learning curve though.  The way it is set up makes it look like you have to play it the same way you play WWII and be ultra aggressive with the CPs when you have to use a restrained aggressiveness.

You also say the CP must be patient, but with a large income gap they cannot afford to be patient lol
They have to take tt and hold it fast else they are doomed to at best losing a war of attrition

Anyhow Larry’s strategic movement idea would greatly improve balance and give the CPs a real fighting chance!

Notice the question mark following what you highlighted?  I was asking Wild Bill a question of what he has seen in that situation if Germany doesn’t attack the French stack in Paris.  No where in any of my posts do I say that baiting the French is part of my master plan.  The CPs are losing the economic battle if they allow the UK and US to freely land troops in mainland Europe, hence my argument for a CP navy.  The CPs have the material and economic advantage on the mainland and can maintain that even if they divert some to naval purchases. I will post the numbers for all of this later as I don’t have them in front of me at the moment.

Without landing troops in Europe the allies will win the economic game as well. All of Africa will go to them (and Germany loses that) etc.
I haven’t seen any argument in favor of the CP’s winning this game that I think is realistic or viable against a proper opponent. For every one of them I can think about at least three things that counter it.

Tex there are multiple issues. One was what France would do if they were in Paris and an equal-sized German Army was adjacent. In that situation I pointed out that it would be absurd to expect France to attack that German Army.

There was also discussion of a more general strategy, where Germany and even Austria go significantly or even heavily naval with their buys, while they play defensively on land.

With the naval buys you describe, you insist that the CP can hold their own defensively while Austria disrupts the Med. and Germany disrupts the Atlantic, while Germany’s income is pushing 50. This is a far cry from anything I have seen anyone else report. You made a lot of bold claims, and to be frank I am not convinced the Allies were playing remotely well in the game(s) you saw this CP strat work.

And so my latest attempt as the CP…

In general, the strategy could be described as play conservatively, hold onto and build up the CP forces, build up the German and AH fleets, and then hit the allies with combined forces to diminish the risk of allied counters (e.g., Germany hits a Russian territory, then AH reinforces before Russia can counter.)  The strategy involved a lot of early CP bluffing, threatening large invasions on all fronts to force the allies to fall back, but then just skirmishing/trading the peripheral territories instead of moving in force deep into France/Russia/Italy.  Both the Germans and AH were able to achieve stand-off with their respective fleets - the Allies were collectively stronger in both the Med and North Atlantic, but the “attack-alone” problem combined with mines meant neither side was in a position to attack.  The CP did much better with this strategy than in my other recent games, and eventually, the CP were able to force Russia into revolution which they accepted, to (more-or-less) close off that side of the board.

And it still didn’t matter.  The Ottomans fell to sustained British assault, the Italians were never seriously threatened, and the western front began to collapse with the allies enjoying a significant economic advantage.  AH managed to essentially check the British advance up through the Turkey, but the British were a monster and dropping steadily into Picardy and then Belgium.  France was as strong as AH, and the Americans and Italians managed to put together decent little forces to harass the CP and reinforce the British and French troops as necessary.

My CP play still wasn’t ideal – the major strategic mistake I made was not pushing harder into Italy – but it’s starting to get a lot closer to ideal.   I can’t blame the dice, in the fact CP on the whole enjoyed better than average dice, particularly in the North Atlantic and against Russia.
All of which is a way of saying I’ve gotten frustrated with this game.  Maybe the new “risk” movement rule will help.  Maybe a bid to play the CP.  But, OOB, with competent play on both sides, and non-absurd dice, I don’t think the CP can win.

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

Tex there are multiple issues. One was what France would do if they were in Paris and an equal-sized German Army was adjacent. In that situation I pointed out that it would be absurd to expect France to attack that German Army.

There was also discussion of a more general strategy, where Germany and even Austria go significantly or even heavily naval with their buys, while they play defensively on land.

With the naval buys you describe, you insist that the CP can hold their own defensively while Austria disrupts the Med. and Germany disrupts the Atlantic, while Germany’s income is pushing 50. This is a far cry from anything I have seen anyone else report. You made a lot of bold claims, and to be frank I am not convinced the Allies were playing remotely well in the game(s) you saw this CP strat work.

There appears to be a misunderstanding of sorts.  The strategy I have been supporting has the goal of capturing Paris, so I’m not sure why you don’t understand how German forces could be standing outside Paris.  I am not sure what you consider a significant or heavy naval buy, so it is difficult to address your question directly.  Also, you can play defensively on land and still advance.  The most common French strategy that has been given when the Germans advance is to fall back towards Paris.  Obviously if the French do not retreat, then it will play out differently.  Germany is pushing 50 after their first turn, so I don’t how it is that hard to believe.  I did say it depends what the Allies do in response, but if France is falling back, they are conceding their territory.  I am working on a thorough write up that will detail a bit more, but I will leave you with this.  The game board itself tells you that the key to CP success is through their navy.  The game designers added naval mines to this games.  Such mined existed in WWII, so why add them here.  Who is affected more by naval mines?  It is clearly the Central Powers.  The Allies can move about with little to no worry of naval mines.  The Central Powers on the other are significantly affected.  The mines keep the CP navy in check.  Try playing a game without the mines and you’ll see who it affects most.

How is Germany pushing 50 at the end of turn 1?

They start at 35… can get Holland and Belgium and a couple territories in Africa turn 1- so you are at 41-42ish.  Did Russia fully retreat from Poland?  Russia can stack Poland heavily enough that Germany cannot take Poland easily (and probably lose more than it kills in an attack turn 1).  I suppose if Russia is full on retreat mode and abandons Poland- not a good strategy in my book- then Germany can take Poland too?

@BJCard:

How is Germany pushing 50 at the end of turn 1?

They start at 35… can get Holland and Belgium and a couple territories in Africa turn 1- so you are at 41-42ish.  Did Russia fully retreat from Poland?  Russia can stack Poland heavily enough that Germany cannot take Poland easily (and probably lose more than it kills in an attack turn 1).  I suppose if Russia is full on retreat mode and abandons Poland- not a good strategy in my book- then Germany can take Poland too?

Like I said depends on what the allies do, but Poland was included.  If they don’t, then it won’t be as high.  There has been 4-5 people posting in here and everyone does something a little bit differently.  Any strategy that requires the opponent to do something specifically is a bad strategy.

@Texas:

@BJCard:

How is Germany pushing 50 at the end of turn 1?

They start at 35… can get Holland and Belgium and a couple territories in Africa turn 1- so you are at 41-42ish.  Did Russia fully retreat from Poland?  Russia can stack Poland heavily enough that Germany cannot take Poland easily (and probably lose more than it kills in an attack turn 1).  I suppose if Russia is full on retreat mode and abandons Poland- not a good strategy in my book- then Germany can take Poland too?

Like I said depends on what the allies do, but Poland was included.  If they don’t, then it won’t be as high.  There has been 4-5 people posting in here and everyone does something a little bit differently.  Any strategy that requires the opponent to do something specifically is a bad strategy.

I understand, was just trying to calculate…

@Texas:

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

what happens if the Germans don’t attack Paris with a 50 vs 50 stack and hold just outside and wait for reinforcements or bait the French into attacking?� The Germans are gong to lose half their units on an attack like that and I agree, the Germans have no chance of winning it.� What is France’s income at about that time?� I think that basic plan is impossible to win as you would be losing more troops than you are reinforcing with.� I think a mistake people are making with the CPs are they are being too aggressive.� What do the Russians typically do in your games after the Germans take Poland, but they aren’t going full force towards Russia (and Austria isn’t going to attack a 40-man stack either)?� Couldn’t the Germans walk up the coast while the Russians hunker down.� At some point they will have to spread out a bit to prevent the loss of all their territory.� I agree with the learning curve though.� The way it is set up makes it look like you have to play it the same way you play WWII and be ultra aggressive with the CPs when you have to use a restrained aggressiveness.�

You also say the CP must be patient, but with a large income gap they cannot afford to be patient lol
They have to take tt and hold it fast else they are doomed to at best losing a war of attrition

Anyhow Larry’s strategic movement idea would greatly improve balance and give the CPs a real fighting chance!

Notice the question mark following what you highlighted?� I was asking Wild Bill a question of what he has seen in that situation if Germany doesn’t attack the French stack in Paris.� No where in any of my posts do I say that baiting the French is part of my master plan.� The CPs are losing the economic battle if they allow the UK and US to freely land troops in mainland Europe, hence my argument for a CP navy.� The CPs have the material and economic advantage on the mainland and can maintain that even if they divert some to naval purchases. I will post the numbers for all of this later as I don’t have them in front of me at the moment.

In the situation referred to above, when the Germans got to Burgundy w/50 or so units a good chunk of it was art and they also had air power (it was an attack force). The French only had the artillery they start with (think 8?), and did all inf buys to get to 50 units or so (a defense force). At that point the French aren’t going to attack because they simply don’t have the art/air needed to make a dent, and would just be wiped out. If you delay as Germany and give them a couple turns that will change as they start buying art/ftrs and maybe tanks. If the Germans delay the assault, and don’t contest Paris the French also keep getting paid for it, so you need to move in to start dropping the French income.

This all happened around turn 5, so the UK/US start to land on the beaches of France to funnel units in to defend it, so the longer Germany waits, the more units will be defending Paris. It is a double edge sword though, because when Germany attacks, and even if they are able to drop Paris, the other allies could be there to liberate it shortly afterwords.

I think that Texas dose have a valid point though, and the CP does need to challenge the allied naval dominance (once they get their armies moving in the right direction). They need to preserve their starting navies, like have the Germans attack the British home fleet w/everything (leaving the Canadian fleet alone). Have them buy a ship here and there to slowly build up. Maybe the Austrians buy a sub turn 1, because the allies have to attack one at a time, and it might deter them from hitting you for a bit. If the Germans keep their fleet together in North Sea, it will generally get the French attention, and they may abandon the Med to help defend/rebuild the English fleet. In the game I described above the Germans could have got control of the Atlantic with a 3rd turn navy build (maybe just temporarily), because the UK built almost exclusively India. A fairly heavy 3rd or 4th turn German navy build could have very well made a difference. It cuts off the German flow of reinforcements though, but it could also have delayed the allied landings. Can’t wait to give it another shot LOL.

Based on running the numbers, I think it is impossible for Germany to capture Paris in this manner.  Set up the game board with only Germany and France and see how long it takes to capture Paris…my estimate is turn 8ish.  Now take in to account that France’s allies will come in to assist and Germany has to keep forces in the east to avoid getting run over by Russia…  To be honest, I think the game was designed to not provide this as a viable option.  What kind of WWI game would it be if Germany could steamroll its way to Paris?  The western front is supposed to bog down; it is suppose to be difficult.  It is supposed to not work.  It didn’t work in the actual war, why should it here?  In reality, Germany needs to wait for tanks before performing a super aggressive assault on Paris to limit their losses.

Just played our first game (-and a half) today.  Played one to about turn three to get a feel for the rules while waiting on our fourth player, then ran pretty much a full game.  First one was starting to look rough for the CP, and the Entente won the second, fulll game pretty handily–Russia was never even put into revolution, primarily due to a series of really awesome Russian rolls in Poland.

Just a first game, and I’m looking forward to giving Hungary a whirl, but it looks to be a tough road to hoe for the Central Powers.

@Texas:

Based on running the numbers, I think it is impossible for Germany to capture Paris in this manner.  Set up the game board with only Germany and France and see how long it takes to capture Paris…my estimate is turn 8ish.  Now take in to account that France’s allies will come in to assist and Germany has to keep forces in the east to avoid getting run over by Russia…  To be honest, I think the game was designed to not provide this as a viable option.  What kind of WWI game would it be if Germany could steamroll its way to Paris?  The western front is supposed to bog down; it is suppose to be difficult.  It is supposed to not work.  It didn’t work in the actual war, why should it here?  In reality, Germany needs to wait for tanks before performing a super aggressive assault on Paris to limit their losses.

Well what kind of game would it be if there was only one way to win ?

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

Based on running the numbers, I think it is impossible for Germany to capture Paris in this manner.  Set up the game board with only Germany and France and see how long it takes to capture Paris…my estimate is turn 8ish.  Now take in to account that France’s allies will come in to assist and Germany has to keep forces in the east to avoid getting run over by Russia…  To be honest, I think the game was designed to not provide this as a viable option.  What kind of WWI game would it be if Germany could steamroll its way to Paris?  The western front is supposed to bog down; it is suppose to be difficult.  It is supposed to not work.  It didn’t work in the actual war, why should it here?  In reality, Germany needs to wait for tanks before performing a super aggressive assault on Paris to limit their losses.

Well what kind of game would it be if there was only one way to win ?

Didn’t say there was, just that Germany killing France fast isn’t one of them.

@Texas:

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

Based on running the numbers, I think it is impossible for Germany to capture Paris in this manner.  Set up the game board with only Germany and France and see how long it takes to capture Paris…my estimate is turn 8ish.  Now take in to account that France’s allies will come in to assist and Germany has to keep forces in the east to avoid getting run over by Russia…  To be honest, I think the game was designed to not provide this as a viable option.  What kind of WWI game would it be if Germany could steamroll its way to Paris?  The western front is supposed to bog down; it is suppose to be difficult.  It is supposed to not work.  It didn’t work in the actual war, why should it here?  In reality, Germany needs to wait for tanks before performing a super aggressive assault on Paris to limit their losses.

Well what kind of game would it be if there was only one way to win ?

Didn’t say there was, just that Germany killing France fast isn’t one of them.

Well that only leaves killing russia fast lol

Or splitting forces up, which is probably the worst strategy.

I have tried the new SM rule in three games now (and plus one move from ports) and the Centrals still lost, but at least they had a much better chance. They had taken Rome and Moscow, but by that time France is a monster. Too big to stop and quickly takes Ruhr and other wealthy tts, while Brits are at the gates of Byzantium and then its over.

I think France is too rich or has too many troops to start with. Maybe they should at set up lose the troops they gain anyway from Belgium and Portugal.

Allies will win even with a Russia defeat as it is an economic game.

The all-out Russia strategy will not work. Assuming you will be able to conquer Moscow within 6 turns, it will probably take even longer, the axis will still have a shortage in IPC.  The Allies will grab 4 ipc from Germany in Africa and 4-5 ipc of neutrals/minor powers. In order to beat Russia you will need the Ottoman armies, meaning a few Ottoman territories will be lost (Ankara, Meso, Trans Jordan around 7 ipc) to the English during your Russia effort. USA will reinforce Italy meanwhile and in that case the Austrians are stuck in Venice and will have to defend their entire border from amphibous assaults. Uk can drop units in Karelia each turn and France is (almost) able to match the German production. In fact with germany buying a navy the first few turns, France #1 army is bigger after 4-5 turns than the German army in the west front. Germany will have no choice to withdraw to Ruhr.

Best scenario of Axis:
Axis Russian gains are at best 22 IPC
Axis Balkan up 10 IPC
Ottoman 9 ipc orginal
Austria 26 ipc orginal
Germany 35-4 ipc = 31 ipc
Plus contested Venice
Total of 98 IPC

Leaving Italy down to
12 IPC
Middle East gains 3 IPC
Africa up 9 Ipc
Ottoman 7 ipc
USA 20 IPC
Russia knocked out, except Karelia 2 ipc
France 22ipc plus 4 from belgium & portugal = 26
UK = 30
total 109 IPC

And the worst case is that the Axis are now on the defensive. It is simply impossible to win

Indeed. And the allied ipc is gained way easier and sooner then the centsrals. The African and neutrals IpC are gained within two turns, while the CP has to fight for every IPC. So they will lose loads of troops gaining tts while the allies even gain troops from Portugal etc.

To balance the game.

Major changes:

1. 4 unit railroad movement in original territories. Example move 4 units from Prussia to Ruhr. I do not like the strategic movement proposal. keep the game easy
2. Russian Revolution change: If Axis control 3 Russian territories the Axis player may throw a dice to start the Russian revolution. Lets say 1 will start the revolution. If the Axis control 4 Russian territories a dice throw of 1-2 will start the Revolution.

Minor changes

1. Remove one unit from the Allies in Africa and/or add one German unit to make conquering Africa slightly more difficult for the Allies
2. Remove one cruiser or battleship from France
3. Add one infantry to Smyrna and one infantry to Trans Jordan

@Snackbar:

To balance the game.

Major changes:

1. 4 unit railroad movement in original territories. Example move 4 units from Prussia to Ruhr. I do not like the strategic movement proposal. keep the game easy
2. Russian Revolution change: If Axis control 3 Russian territories the Axis player may throw a dice to start the Russian revolution. Lets say 1 will start the revolution. If the Axis control 4 Russian territories a dice throw of 1-2 will start the Revolution.

1. I to would prefer something like this as opposed to the SM idea. Keeping the movement within the bounds of your own country (and NOT Africa) makes perfect sense. If you do a limit, I would like 8 as that is a standard size army (6 inf, 2 artillery)

2. Not real keen on the revolution occuring on a dice roll, as that puts a significant outcome to chance that really effects the game. Good Luck/Bad Luck on this may decide the outcome, just too much to chance. Historically the Russians bailed out when the body count was more then could be stomached.

Minor changes

1. Remove one unit from the Allies in Africa and/or add one German unit to make conquering Africa slightly more difficult for the Allies
2. Remove one cruiser or battleship from France
3. Add one infantry to Smyrna and one infantry to Trans Jordan

1. Africa is a problem for balance as the Germans are defeated in around 4 turns with nothing they can do about it at all. Giving them some extra troops makes sense, as UK and France can reinforce to deal with it if they choose.       Â

2. Remove the French battleship and give them a cruiser. Give the Germans a 2nd Battleship, and UK one also. These are the historic numbers.

3. Maybe. If you bolster the Germans in Africa, the UK will need to send help there instead of Arabia, so it might be a wash.

Nice ideas

Kim

The Allies are increasingly sending troops to Africa by transport Round 1 to clear out the Germans sooner.

Stationing a German cruiser there (SZ24 or 26) would at least force them to send some escorts.

I wouldn’t favour more German troops, as it is the empty tts are a free gift for Germany.

Askaris are my other suggestion for Africa, but like anything else ultimately the Allies will be able to outspend the Central Powers.