Who Wins

@Texas:

That still doesn’t answer how the UK defends against Germany if they are spending that much in India.� If the UK is spending that much in India, Germany is being played very poorly.

Why does UK have to defend against Germany ?
If Germany is spending on naval then Germany is being played very poorly lol
UK has absolutely nothing to fear from Germany, and as i said France can go toe-toe with Germany without losing its capital.
UK can spend almost all its income in India, USA lands in Italy turn 6 (12 units).
I honestly see no way (baring screwups or horrible dice) that the allies lose without doing it on purpose.

The last game i played France collected 32 IPC on turn 3; 34 on 4 and on turn 5 actually had ratcheted all the way to 44.
Germany didnt send enough units towards Moscow and couldnt take it and at the same time didnt have near enough to pressure France in any way.
With Germany sending units to Moscow France has all day to secure Portugal; Morocco; Spain and 3+ tts in Africa.

I have played 6 games now and tried about every CP strat i could think of.
As long as Russia masses infantry (with a few fighters) and retreats, it takes one hell of a CP force to take Moscow.
France and Russia both should build almost exclusively infantry with a few fighters mixed in, Germany can take Moscow eventually but by the time they do France is crashing through Ruhr en mass, and now atleast 1/3 of German forces are effectivly ‘out of service’ in Moscow

If Germany tries a France first strategy they will get to Paris and stall, now USA and UK are landing in Europe forcing Germany to retreat.
Russia if left unchecked can take meso, sweden, norway, persia, and can easily overwhelm 2 of the 3 CP powers on the Eastern front.
A-H cannot take Rome AND hold vs Russia, and if A-H is not trying to take Rome Italy will go through the swiss and even further hinder the German advance on Paris

to KNP7765: ok was the allied player your 3 year old son? cause lol how does AH make a ‘surprise’ amphid assault on Rome., on turn TWO ffs
This is truly hysterical, Italy builds atleast 4 units turn one that HAVE to be placed in Rome. So Italy needs 3 transports to have a decent shot. That means only 14 IPCs left to bolster their MASSIVELY outgunned fleet in the med. 1 battleship. so now AH has 2 BB and 1 CA. French/Italy/UK combined STARTING navy in the med is 3 BB and 3 CA lol double what AH has AFTER they purchased round 1. That doesnt count an allied counter purchase, and rolling for mines.
Even if AH build only 1 transport and added a sub too they would still be screwed.

We need balance and for that we need games played, but games played horribly are not going to help us get to balance, all they will do is give the naysayers that say its too early or we need to just figure out better CP strats more ammo.
This game as is, is unbalanced and it is nearly impossible (without crazy dice or blind allied player leaving Rome for the taking AH2 lol) for the CP to win

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

That still doesn’t answer how the UK defends against Germany if they are spending that much in India.� If the UK is spending that much in India, Germany is being played very poorly.

Why does UK have to defend against Germany ?
If Germany is spending on naval then Germany is being played very poorly lol
UK has absolutely nothing to fear from Germany, and as i said France can go toe-toe with Germany without losing its capital.
UK can spend almost all its income in India, USA lands in Italy turn 6 (12 units).
I honestly see no way (baring screwups or horrible dice) that the allies lose without doing it on purpose.

The last game i played France collected 32 IPC on turn 3; 34 on 4 and on turn 5 actually had ratcheted all the way to 44.
Germany didnt send enough units towards Moscow and couldnt take it and at the same time didnt have near enough to pressure France in any way.
With Germany sending units to Moscow France has all day to secure Portugal; Morocco; Spain and 3+ tts in Africa.

I have played 6 games now and tried about every CP strat i could think of.
As long as Russia masses infantry (with a few fighters) and retreats, it takes one hell of a CP force to take Moscow.
France and Russia both should build almost exclusively infantry with a few fighters mixed in, Germany can take Moscow eventually but by the time they do France is crashing through Ruhr en mass, and now atleast 1/3 of German forces are effectivly ‘out of service’ in Moscow

If Germany tries a France first strategy they will get to Paris and stall, now USA and UK are landing in Europe forcing Germany to retreat.
Russia if left unchecked can take meso, sweden, norway, persia, and can easily overwhelm 2 of the 3 CP powers on the Eastern front.
A-H cannot take Rome AND hold vs Russia, and if A-H is not trying to take Rome Italy will go through the swiss and even further hinder the German advance on Paris

If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning.  This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games.  What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1?  Are you not building their fleet back up?  How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there?  How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?

Thats the thing, Texas, UK doesnt need to send anything to France, because they will hold their ground anyway.

@Tavenier:

Thats the thing, Texas, UK doesnt need to send anything to France, because they will hold their ground anyway.

If the UK is spending everything in India, Germany doesn’t even have to worry about France.

@Texas:

If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning.  This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games.  What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1?  Are you not building their fleet back up?  How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there?  How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?

What? I cant make sense of this lol

Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)

Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P

The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.

Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into India

CP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.

Im also convinced. I dont get the fact that Texas thinks France needs any help from Britain or Germany needs to build ships. France has no problems with Germany, even less is if you transport African armies to Europe, and Portuguese troops.

We need to move Paris back east; 3 spaces from Berlin. On the other hand, I did get a large army into Burgundy. Then again, this was through Switzerland, so relocating Paris needs to be combined with beefing up the Swiss.

This was probably very tough to balance, but the Munich factory may be too much the other way.

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning.  This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games.  What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1?  Are you not building their fleet back up?  How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there?  How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?

What? I cant make sense of this lol

Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)

Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P

The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.

Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into India

CP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.

You basically just made my point for me.  Germany has to dictate the UKs purchases and where.  If the UK is spending everything in India, you have to get their attention and force them to split their buys.  AH can capture Rome as early as the 5th turn, well before the Americans ever get close.  Possibly earlier if they get favorable rolls.  Also, if France and Russia go on the offensive, I would be overjoyed as a CP player as that is the main problem the CP player has in this game is they go too aggressive and lose way more troops attacking as the Allies do defending.  Also, as far as the German Navy, yes, you need to buy a battleship every turn and a sub every now and then to force the Allies to protect their transports.  Trust me on this one.  If you ignore the sea with the CP, you have no chance of winning.  You can’t allow the UK and US to freely land troops in Europe, you have to isolate France.  Also, it forces them to also purchase warships rather than transports and land units. I have seen the CP win the majority of games and this is the basic strategy to winning.

Texas you are clueless, what im saying is that Germany CANNOT dictate UK.
UK can spend whereever it so pleases, with absolutely no worry with what Germany is doing. (Unlike G40 where Germ can do an early sealion)
Heck a one good UK strat is to get 2-4 transports early and chuck units to Karelia everyother turn and into Europe on the turns inbetween.
Once the transports are up they can resume spending in India (drop 10+ units once every few turns or 4-6 everyturn.

If A-H is all over Italy and Germany is going to Russia, then France can EASILY come down (through Switzerland) and beat them back away from Italy.
If A-H is all over Italy and Germany is going trying to get Paris first, then Russia will either A: Cripple both to the point where its gg. B: Force enough forces back East to effectively ‘save’ Rome. C: Go all in on A-H and wipe them out.

You cannot build navy as Germany and make enough ground forces to take out moscow and push into France. Unless of course the allied player is a moron. For every BB you build that is atleast 3 more infantry each for both Russia and France.
France, Russia, and Italy should all build pure infantry with a couple fighters mixed in to create a stalemate. Once a stalemate is acheived it is gg for the axis, they simply cannot reinforce the front fast enough.

If Germany does not do KFF then France can take up portugal, spain, morocco, and several tts in africa by turn 4ish and have an income nearly as high Germany itself.

The main problem is Berlin is so far away from both Paris and Moscow and theres no other way to build units.
Germany needs a second production tt (like india) in Ruhr or Munich and/or some sort of Railroad national bonus

@Texas:

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning.  This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games.  What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1?  Are you not building their fleet back up?  How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there?  How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?

What? I cant make sense of this lol

Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)

Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P

The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.

Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into India

CP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.

You basically just made my point for me.  Germany has to dictate the UKs purchases and where.  If the UK is spending everything in India, you have to get their attention and force them to split their buys.  AH can capture Rome as early as the 5th turn, well before the Americans ever get close.  Possibly earlier if they get favorable rolls.  Also, if France and Russia go on the offensive, I would be overjoyed as a CP player as that is the main problem the CP player has in this game is they go too aggressive and lose way more troops attacking as the Allies do defending.  Also, as far as the German Navy, yes, you need to buy a battleship every turn and a sub every now and then to force the Allies to protect their transports.  Trust me on this one.  If you ignore the sea with the CP, you have no chance of winning.  You can’t allow the UK and US to freely land troops in Europe, you have to isolate France.  Also, it forces them to also purchase warships rather than transports and land units. I have seen the CP win the majority of games and this is the basic strategy to winning.

How are you taking Rome by turn 5?  If Italy continually retreats to Rome and leaves ‘roadblocks’ for you… (leaves one inf in Venice turn 1 so Austria cannot advance- must conduct combat in Venice)?  Turn 5-6 the US is landing 12 units in Rome…

He has to playing against a very incompetent allied player lol
Because he also builds battleships and submarines everyturn germany and transports to ‘threaten uk’

@Uncrustable:

He has to playing against a very incompetent allied player lol
Because he also builds battleships and submarines everyturn germany and transports to ‘threaten uk’

I don’t mind a ship or two, but not every turn.  Depends on what the allies are buying. I tried the transport route to drop germans in karelia- lost them on mine rolls.  never again will I bother with transports as Germany-  it should start with one at least.

I agree on Germany starting with a transport

This thread has become humorous.  Let’s all complain that the CP can’t win then ridicule the guy that has had success with them.  For the record, I don’t build transports with Germany.  I would consider it if the UK is ignorant enough to never build in Europe.  You also have 30+ income to spend on land units even buying a battleship every turn.  Also, if you have the sea advantage, you can reduce your naval buys.

Okay, answer this basic question, what is your UK1 build after the Germans sink your fleet?

@Texas:

This thread has become humorous.  Let’s all complain that the CP can’t win then ridicule the guy that has had success with them.  For the record, I don’t build transports with Germany.  I would consider it if the UK is ignorant enough to never build in Europe.  You also have 30+ income to spend on land units even buying a battleship every turn.  Also, if you have the sea advantage, you can reduce your naval buys.

Okay, answer this basic question, what is your UK1 build after the Germans sink your fleet?

Well, it depends on what Germany buys and how badly they beat the British Navy, because a 2 BB, 1 SS (or 1 BB, 2 cruisers) build that combined with Canadian ships (if available) and French ships in the SZ west of Britain should be safe enough, especially with 2 mine zones to reach it.

But france can easily get 30 IPCs as well to match the germany 30 IPCs … how does Germany win then?  All france has to do is build infantry and the odd fighter.

The point of a German naval build isn’t for some hopeless invasion of England. The point is to prevent the UK landing troops in Europe whenever and wherever it wants. If Germany lets them do that, they aren’t playing well.

@BJCard:

@Texas:

This thread has become humorous.  Let’s all complain that the CP can’t win then ridicule the guy that has had success with them.  For the record, I don’t build transports with Germany.  I would consider it if the UK is ignorant enough to never build in Europe.  You also have 30+ income to spend on land units even buying a battleship every turn.  Also, if you have the sea advantage, you can reduce your naval buys.

Okay, answer this basic question, what is your UK1 build after the Germans sink your fleet?

Well, it depends on what Germany buys and how badly they beat the British Navy, because a 2 BB, 1 SS (or 1 BB, 2 cruisers) build that combined with Canadian ships (if available) and French ships in the SZ west of Britain should be safe enough, especially with 2 mine zones to reach it.

But france can easily get 30 IPCs as well to match the germany 30 IPCs … how does Germany win then?  All france has to do is build infantry and the odd fighter.

Okay and that is the UK response I would expect and it was dictated by what Germany did.  With that buy, nothing is left for India either, relieving pressure on the Ottomans.  My Geman build would depend what Russia did, but at a minimum 1 BB would be purchased.  Possibly a transport to force the UK to garrison Scotland and Yorkshire.

@BJCard:

How are you taking Rome by turn 5?  If Italy continually retreats to Rome and leaves ‘roadblocks’ for you… (leaves one inf in Venice turn 1 so Austria cannot advance- must conduct combat in Venice)?  Turn 5-6 the US is landing 12 units in Rome…

Italy can’t move their forces out of Venice towards Rome on I1, Tuscany is Austrian controlled.  They can move them to Piedmont if they want.

I honestly don’t think this game was designed to actually achieve the victory conditions.  You can win without capturing a single capital.  I think they were put in there to give the players a goal and well, you need to have sort of condition for victory (until the other player gives up doesn’t sound that great in a rulebook).  You just have to push the other side to the point to where victory for them would be extremely difficult and time consuming.  If I am an allied player fending off Germany at Paris after playing for 8+ hours and was told that if hung in there for another 10 hours, the Allies would have turned the tide, I would probably surrender anyway. I don’t have the time and energy to go on that long.  That actually reflects the real war as well.  The Allies won the real war but never came close to Berlin.