How to balance out the game for the Allies in one easy step

It would make the game more dynamic and more fun for the Allies, who are otherwise just responding to Axis initiative.

One problem with having France go first (among others) is the time line would be incorrect. Fance was not neutral having declared war in 1939 after the invasion of Poland.

the game actually begins on the eve of the invasion of France. Demmark and Norway where captured by Germany in April of 1940 and are already in German hands at teh start of the game. The UK starts with control of Iceland, where infact Britain invaded Iceland the same day Germany invaded France.

Having France go first and you would have to back-up the game timeline from where it was designed to start. Also, having the Germans roll over the French right off the bat is the way Larry wanted this game to work. Changing that design concept makes this a very different game.

Kim

If france starts the game neutral for a turn, Germany could still steamroll it even if they put all available units in Paris.  In terms of historical reality, the setup as it is right now is ridiculous.  Just imagine Germany in Fall 1940 sweeping France, sinking most of the royal navy, invading East Poland, Baltic States, Bessarabia and Yugoslavia, and at the same time Japan taking Malaya, Borneo, Hong Kong and the Philippines.  That’s what is happening when some people do a G1 and J1 combo, which may or may not be an efficient way to win the game but it is certainly possible to do it.

@variance:

If france starts the game neutral for a turn, Germany could still steamroll it even if they put all available units in Paris.  In terms of historical reality, the setup as it is right now is ridiculous.  Just imagine Germany in Fall 1940 sweeping France, sinking most of the royal navy, invading East Poland, Baltic States, Bessarabia and Yugoslavia, and at the same time Japan taking Malaya, Borneo, Hong Kong and the Philippines.  That’s what is happening when some people do a G1 and J1 combo, which may or may not be an efficient way to win the game but it is certainly possible to do it.

That’s just it. France is NOT neutral, she declared war in 1939. That’s why there are British troops on French soil when the game starts.

I suggest that if anyone wants France to start the game first to please play some games and report how they go, we would all be interested in the results.

Kim

Remove 19 IPC worth of french units from France, then let it go first :)

I think a french-first scenario would require a whole new board setup for all powers. In terms of gameplay speed, often (as the axis) i play a long german turn, then after a short russian turn i take my time with japan, then i dont play again for an HOUR. I would enjoy a setup where the axis powers are more spread out in the turn order.

@KimRYoung:

One problem with having France go first (among others) is the time line would be incorrect. Fance was not neutral having declared war in 1939 after the invasion of Poland.

the game actually begins on the eve of the invasion of France. Demmark and Norway where captured by Germany in April of 1940 and are already in German hands at teh start of the game. The UK starts with control of Iceland, where infact Britain invaded Iceland the same day Germany invaded France.

Having France go first and you would have to back-up the game timeline from where it was designed to start. Also, having the Germans roll over the French right off the bat is the way Larry wanted this game to work. Changing that design concept makes this a very different game.

Kim

Actually, the game begins right after dunkirk, after the british evacuated most of their forces.  At that point, germany easily overwhelmed france.

@ghr2:

Actually, the game begins right after dunkirk, after the british evacuated most of their forces.  At that point, germany easily overwhelmed france.

Well that pretty much makes it no way France can be neutral.

Kim

@KimRYoung:

One problem with having France go first (among others) is the time line would be incorrect. Fance was not neutral having declared war in 1939 after the invasion of Poland.

Correct but Italy did not declare war on France until after German had invaded them so easily (which has already been said in this thread).

If you want to take it even historically further, Italy’s invasion of Southern France was actually a disaster in the real war, not a roll-over like it is in AA40.

A France at war with only Germany at the start of the game and able to move forces into Southern France to repel an Italian invasion would be even more accurate. It seems that everyone is arguing that France could too easily invade Northern Italy. Why not just say that France can’t DOW on Italy? Seems simple enough.

Of course, Paris’ starting units would have to be altered to account for the extra 19 IPC, but probably not by much considering it would just be a built-in Allied bid.

Add 2 more french inf in normandy and in south france, a small frech fleet in z105 (dd and tranny) and add tranny in z93.

I also think 2inf FIC would be good and realistic.

This opens up for a more tactical/flexible play with France. Axis can not ignore them 100% anymore or risk the might counterattack, stack Normandy or evacuate to help britons defend London.

Another house rule that is supricingly balancing is that allies is allowed to “liberate” former french colonies in africa and asia by moving land units into them. Why would they not? This help boost UK income lategame.

i find the fact that people here try to use historical accuracy as an argument for how the game works. Axis and allies is just a little more accurate than risk, if it was accurate, then russia should have a production of 50-60 and usa should have a production of more than 120, while japan should be much smaller, there would be no NOs, and so on and so on.

this thread is a thread about balance, axis is not and will never be accurate. if you want accurate games, you should look into games like world in flames (somewhat accurate), or the Europa series (VERY accurate)

How about this:

France goes first (so allies have a chance)
France starts at war with Germany but cannot declare war on Italy until round 2 (so Italy is safe but France may attack Holland etc)
Normandy and South France ICs start with 6 damage (so no carriers; biggest possible naval build is a cruiser; repairs pricey)
Move German cruiser from z114 to z112 (bait French attack on z112; Germany can use it if it isn’t sunk)
Swap French cruiser in z110 for a Battleship (so French may attack to provoke scramble or else z112 will be blocked as in alpha 2)
Swap UK Battleship in z110 for a cruiser (so z110 doesn’t change overall, unless France builds a ship)

This thread should be in House Rules

@variance:

How about this:

France goes first (so allies have a chance)
France starts at war with Germany but cannot declare war on Italy until round 2 (so Italy is safe but France can attack Holland etc)
Normandy and South France ICs start with 6 damage (so no carriers; biggest possible naval build is a cruiser; repairs pricey)
Move German cruiser from z114 to z112 (bait French attack on z112; Germany can use it if it isn’t sunk)
Swap French cruiser in z110 for a Battleship (so French may attack to provoke scramble or else z112 will be blocked as in alpha 2)
Swap UK Battleship in z110 for a cruiser (so z110 doesn’t change overall, unless France builds a ship)

This thread should be in House Rules

I would move every possible French unit to Southern France, repair Southern France Factory, build 3 Artillery there.  France turn 2 attack Northern Italy.

@BJCard:

I would move every possible French unit to Southern France, repair Southern France Factory, build 3 Artillery there.  France turn 2 attack Northern Italy.

You could do that but Northern Italy can be stacked easily.

@variance:

@BJCard:

I would move every possible French unit to Southern France, repair Southern France Factory, build 3 Artillery there.  France turn 2 attack Northern Italy.

You could do that but Northern Italy can be stacked easily.

True, but since Germany is taking Paris turn 1, they will still need a large army to take southern France (if France cannot attack Northern Italy).  This would delay Barbarossa.  Since italy is stacking Northern Italy (Probably with German help), this delays Italy’s Mediterranean war.  Heck, you could land all of Britain’s air in Southern France to force even more German units to fight you there (maybe not the best plan, but Germany would have to account for this).

@variance:

@BJCard:

I would move every possible French unit to Southern France, repair Southern France Factory, build 3 Artillery there.� France turn 2 attack Northern Italy.

You could do that but Northern Italy can be stacked easily.� �

The Germans could take Paris with a token force and move in to North Italy with a bunch of infantry / artillery. Would love this. It does have the negative implication of keeping the French Army a to be dealt with at later turns, but it would be freeing up all the mechanized troops to move East for a very strong G2.

If I was the french I would buy 5 inf 1 art, move guys from S France and Normandy to France, fly fighter in from London.  This makes Germany have to bring all available ground units.  Add 2 bombers and a tac to that and the odds are still only 63% that Germany wins with only 2 tanks left.  Thats not the odds I want.  I at least want all my tanks and planes left after the France battle.

Who knows what happens after that.  It could balance the game or maybe skew it toward the allies.  It may be more fun if the allies are favored.  Axis gets to initiate all the action at the expense of it being a little more difficult to win.  Right now, the axis get to initiate all the action and kick ass for the most part so no one wants to be the allies.  Sit around and wait to get your ass handed to you:)

@Omega1759:

@variance:

@BJCard:

I would move every possible French unit to Southern France, repair Southern France Factory, build 3 Artillery there.� France turn 2 attack Northern Italy.

You could do that but Northern Italy can be stacked easily.� �

The Germans could take Paris with a token force and move in to North Italy with a bunch of infantry / artillery. Would love this. It does have the negative implication of keeping the French Army a to be dealt with at later turns, but it would be freeing up all the mechanized troops to move East for a very strong G2.

Well, you could love this but the French will still have a sizable force in Southern France-  they could go to Normandy and the Brits could land there- perhaps land a bunch of fighters there.  Or stay in Southern France and the Brits land units there from Egypt/Malta/etc.

Well, you could love this but the French will still have a sizable force in Southern France-  they could go to Normandy and the Brits could land there- perhaps land a bunch of fighters there.  Or stay in Southern France and the Brits land units there from Egypt/Malta/etc.

I agree.  I don’t think allowing this type of army to stay alive is a very good idea.  I would take all the german forces available to try and wipe them out asap.  Moving them into southern france would make that difficult to do on G1.  S France could have 10 inf, 3 art, 1 armor, 2 fighters, 1 AA gun.  (possibly more powerful units with a different purchase).  Germany could only get 4 mech, 3 tanks, 4 fighter, 4 tacs, 2 strat.  The odds are only 62% that germany wins with one ground unit to take the land (63% otherwise).  That also takes away most of the attacks, if not all, on the Royal Navy.  Tough spot for germany to start at.

Agreed, which is why this may not balance it out.  Perhaps just allowing the French to build & place- no movement?

@BJCard:

Agreed, which is why this may not balance it out.  Perhaps just allowing the French to build & place- no movement?

If they can’t move at all, it really seems to defeat the purpose of letting them start before Germany.