Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

@Cmdr:

Given this, why not say a nation may save up to 5 IPC (since they come in 1s, 5s and 10s) in any given round to apply towards getting a free technology roll next round.  This is about the maximal end of any nation’s realistic savings in any given round is far short of “buying” a die without spending money.  We’ll also conceed that Treasury Money does not count for your free dice - but may be used to purchase dice! 
No reason to limit the amount someone can save, it may be a poor tactic but lets not remove it from play.  Also I agree that you can spend your ipcs any way you see fit and that includes tech.

National Objectives - the major source of Germany, Japan, Russia, America and Australia’s income (if attained) will count towards your “income” to determine what free dice you may or may not qualify for.
I agree that NO’s should count towards this.

Although i’m inclined to prefer income at end of turn, I think all the presented options are workable. So i have no objections really.

@Young:

@Vance:

I’ll vote for anything, just please make it stop.

I CAN’T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!

I think Vance may have turned his plastic gun onto himself.

LOL was thinking about it.

Unless we get a sudden flury of votes, it appears the rule stands as currently written (I editted it to include the max 5 IPC saved from last round to be counted for FREE DICE, it can still be used for units, obviously, or saved again.)

Would you guys like me to make up two versions so then they can be put to a vote?  They would be the same text, except one would have cash on hand and one would have income.

We can, Vance, but right now we have 1 person, who admittedly says he will never play with technology, and everyone else who wants cash on hand.  There might be silent viewers who really don’t care one way or the other.  It was in the interests of preventing abuse I relented to the compromise of only 5 IPC being saved that counts towards free dice…

Guess you’d have the poll says:

Option 1:  Per written rule, no restrictions.
Option 2:  Per written rule, only 5 IPC or less counts towards free dice.
Option 3:  Per written rule, no saved income counts.

(Although, to be honest, I’d say Option 1 and Option 2 are identical to how they would be played in the game.)

Sure no problem.  I was just offering.

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

Given this, why not say a nation may save up to 5 IPC (since they come in 1s, 5s and 10s) in any given round to apply towards getting a free technology roll next round.  This is about the maximal end of any nation’s realistic savings in any given round is far short of “buying” a die without spending money.  We’ll also conceed that Treasury Money does not count for your free dice - but may be used to purchase dice! 
No reason to limit the amount someone can save, it may be a poor tactic but lets not remove it from play.  Also I agree that you can spend your ipcs any way you see fit and that includes tech.

National Objectives - the major source of Germany, Japan, Russia, America and Australia’s income (if attained) will count towards your “income” to determine what free dice you may or may not qualify for.
I agree that NO’s should count towards this.

So are you fine with the revision that only 5 of your saved IPC can count towards qualifying for free dice and that no plundered IPC (from taking a capitol) count for free dice at all?

I grant, if America saves their 52 IPC from round 3’s builds and then collects 70 IPC they would qualify for 3 dice and that could be a problem, but I disagree preventing a nation with only a few IPC to save them for a free die is a problem.  5 seems a nice, small number that allows you to get a die if you are really close to it, but not enough that it is an abuse.

Ya know, this saving IPCs to get free tech rolls seems a little far fetched to me.  If I am Italy I usually need every last dollar to buy units and I need them NOW!  So, yeah I am fine with that; not speaking for anyone else though.

@Cmdr:

Unless we get a sudden flury of votes, it appears the rule stands as currently written (I editted it to include the max 5 IPC saved from last round to be counted for FREE DICE, it can still be used for units, obviously, or saved again.)

dumb idea.  Arbitrary limits added just for clutter?

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

Unless we get a sudden flury of votes, it appears the rule stands as currently written (I editted it to include the max 5 IPC saved from last round to be counted for FREE DICE, it can still be used for units, obviously, or saved again.)

dumb idea.  Arbitrary limits added just for clutter?

So you’re saying just let it stand with all saved money counted?  As Vance said, most nations need all their cash now (and even then, they usually need more than what they have) and I tend to agree with that statement.  Compromising and only having 5 IPC count at least gives nations a chance to get the extra 1 or 2 IPC needed for the next teir while stopping (say) America from saving their whole paycheck just to have 3 dice on Round 4 (just before engaging in War.)

I’m saying each rule we add to Delta should be added to fill a development hole that Larry left us.  Not totally arbitrary and meaningless.  I don’t want a delta rule book that has all these little rules that you have to know about…KISS wins and this 5 ipc limit is not KISS.

I could actually imagine myself doing that as USA, for 3 reasons: 1)the other side can’t guess my intentions from my builds, 2) If I am going Atlantic I will want to buy lots of cheap ground units instead of battleships etc., and thats easier to coordinate if I just save up my big wad for when my minor ICs become majors, and 3) I get free tech rolls as a bonus!  So that’s not really such an unlikely thing to do come to think of it.  Its very gamey though.

@JimmyHat:

I’m saying each rule we add to Delta should be added to fill a development hole that Larry left us.  Not totally arbitrary and meaningless.  I don’t want a delta rule book that has all these little rules that you have to know about…KISS wins and this 5 ipc limit is not KISS.

It’s pretty close to KISS, but no, KISS is you can use whatever money you have for whatever reason you have it (including if you grab a few from your opponent when they’re in the bathroom).

Yes, Vance, that thought came to me when all the complaints about cash on hand came up worrying about giving you too many free dice.  You could literally only do it on round 3 for the following reasons:
1)  You have to be at war, this negates rounds 1 and 2 in most games.
2)  You have major complexes on Round 4 to build with, so utilizing all that money (120ish give or take) is not too hard: 20 submarines with 10 on each side and you’d STILL have enough complex room for 10 more units so none of that income for America would go to waste
3)  It’s the only round in the game where the Axis are not in a position (usually) to capitolize on America saving money, because they have better things to do:  Sea Lion, Barbarossa, Indian Crush, Australian Crush, set up a backdoor option on Russia, whatever…usually they are not in position to capitolize until it’s too late to do so.

Given that, I think a limit on what is saved can be argued - what that limit is I don’t know.  I went with 5 since it’s too little that a nation that’s not doing so well can reasonably expect to save but it’s big enough that if you are close to the next die - you can get it.

ah but you don’t get tech until at war, So at best US is saving money for 1 turns worth of free tech, because after that they will spend those ipcs for troops.  My main concern is Germany saving ipcs so the turn they take Paris or London they might get additional free dice the  next round if going by CoH.  If going by income then countries cannot do this.(one of the reasons why income is better than CoH)

@Cmdr:

You could literally only do it on round 3 for the following reasons:

Ahhh OK so if the rule includes a stipulation that USA can’t develop tech when not at war, this would be a way to work around that.  It’s almost cheating but not quite.

@JimmyHat:

ah but you don’t get tech until at war, So at best US is saving money for 1 turns worth of free tech, because after that they will spend those ipcs for troops.  My main concern is Germany saving ipcs so the turn they take Paris or London they might get additional free dice the  next round if going by CoH.  If going by income then countries cannot do this.(one of the reasons why income is better than CoH)

That is fine.  But then, the 5 IPC limit would stop this from happening.  I agree, allowing treasury sacks to turn into free dice is in violation of the spirit of the rule.  America is more of a loop hole, but we can close that by restricting number of IPC saved or just requiring that you have a Conduct Combat round before rolling dice.