@midnight_reaper that’s a cool idea and I might have to try it. However I don’t like the idea of getting advancements for free, which is why I like some sort of facility to buy. Since the G40 R&D board seems to have the better advances on one side I’d say you have to roll a 1-4 to get the 1 column, and 5-6 to get the second. Maybe even through in an added cost to get 1-3 & 4-6. But again with that, I think countries should have to build the facilities in their capitol instead of anywhere and starting with them.
Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1
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Okay, looking back through here is what we have for actual posted positions:
Young Grasshopper: Cash on Hand
Vance: Cash on Hand
Special Forces: Cash on Hand
Salan: Cash on Hand
Jennifer: Cash on Hand
JimmyHat: Income end of round (basically, cash on hand, but you cannot count anything saved.) - disclaimer, Jimmy has said he does not want to play with technology and we already appeased him by making it optional. :wink: Not saying his argument is invalid, just saying whatever we choose won’t effect him one way or the other as he won’t play with the rule.
Mantlefan: Either collected income, whatever you would collect at the start of your turn, only purchased dice, etc (he’s had like 6 or 7 submissions, none the same as the rest.)Right now, just based on what I remember from the pages - as I went through and killed double posts (posts where someone says the exact same thing, just with different words) we have:
5 - Want Cash on Hand, you are allowed to save your income if you want. That the penalty for saving your money is enough to offset any advantage getting an extra die could possibly give you.
2 - Want (if I can force Mantlefan to agree with JimmyHat’s steady, unchanging request) only what you collect at the end of your round, nothing saved.
Given this, why not say a nation may save up to 5 IPC (since they come in 1s, 5s and 10s) in any given round to apply towards getting a free technology roll next round. This is about the maximal end of any nation’s realistic savings in any given round is far short of “buying” a die without spending money. We’ll also conceed that Treasury Money does not count for your free dice - but may be used to purchase dice!
National Objectives - the major source of Germany, Japan, Russia, America and Australia’s income (if attained) will count towards your “income” to determine what free dice you may or may not qualify for.
I hope this compromise is enough that nobody is happy, but all can agree so we can close this discussion and add the rule to the manuscript (which I am typing up, because I asked YG if I could and he said yes. :P So blame me for all typos!)
Jimmy: Do you object to this compromise? (You speak for Mantle now. IL banned him again.)
YG, Vance, Salan, SpecFor: Do you object to this compromise? -
Let’s all just take a pause, nobody do anything irrational.
We have worked way to hard on this, and have come way to far to push it over the edge. We are a lot closer than we think, but we can’t rush it just because some people think there is a time limit or are getting frustrated with the process.
Here’s a suggestion, why don’t we play some A&A this weekend and refrain from burning this thread down to the ground.
Reflection breeds sanity.
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My position(not mantlefans) is that limiting extra dice to 4-6 means minor nations cannot buy extra dice.
Secondly, I vote for going from CoH to Income at the beginning of your turn. NO’s included…that you hold at the beginning of the turn. Its very simple because you just look at where your ipc token is on the chart, and add any NO’s you hold right now.
I gave a bunch of reasons a page ago as to why this is the preferred method. Most of the reasons are one’s Mantlefan came up with, but that doesn’t invalidate them.
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My position(not mantlefans) is that limiting extra dice to 4-6 means minor nations cannot buy extra dice.
Secondly, I vote for going from CoH to Income at the beginning of your turn. NO’s included…that you hold at the beginning of the turn. Its very simple because you just look at where your ipc token is on the chart, and add any NO’s you hold right now.
I gave a bunch of reasons a page ago as to why this is the preferred method. Most of the reasons are one’s Mantlefan came up with, but that doesn’t invalidate them.
I agree that Mantle fan brought up some good points about using income instead of cash on hand, however, I am reverting my support back to cash on hand because, I am a person of compromise and there are other aspects of this rule that are far more important to me than this one.
Jen and her 9 year old daughter wants it to be cash on hand, I say OK…… but I will expect her to compromise when discussing something in R&D that is important to me. we appreciate your impute Jimmy and we need your help bringing this home. When the time comes, Vance will lay out the versions to be voted on and we will all have a vote, that is unless we scared him away.
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@Cmdr:
Given this, why not say a nation may save up to 5 IPC (since they come in 1s, 5s and 10s) in any given round to apply towards getting a free technology roll next round. This is about the maximal end of any nation’s realistic savings in any given round is far short of “buying” a die without spending money. We’ll also conceed that Treasury Money does not count for your free dice - but may be used to purchase dice!
No reason to limit the amount someone can save, it may be a poor tactic but lets not remove it from play. Also I agree that you can spend your ipcs any way you see fit and that includes tech.National Objectives - the major source of Germany, Japan, Russia, America and Australia’s income (if attained) will count towards your “income” to determine what free dice you may or may not qualify for.
I agree that NO’s should count towards this. -
@Vance:
I’ll vote for anything, just please make it stop.
I CAN’T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!
I think Vance may have turned his plastic gun onto himself.
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Although i’m inclined to prefer income at end of turn, I think all the presented options are workable. So i have no objections really.
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@special:
Although i’m inclined to prefer income at end of turn, I think all the presented options are workable. So i have no objections really.
I wish more people would be this flexible.
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@Young:
@Vance:
I’ll vote for anything, just please make it stop.
I CAN’T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!
I think Vance may have turned his plastic gun onto himself.
LOL was thinking about it.
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Unless we get a sudden flury of votes, it appears the rule stands as currently written (I editted it to include the max 5 IPC saved from last round to be counted for FREE DICE, it can still be used for units, obviously, or saved again.)
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@Cmdr:
Unless we get a sudden flury of votes, it appears the rule stands as currently written (I editted it to include the max 5 IPC saved from last round to be counted for FREE DICE, it can still be used for units, obviously, or saved again.)
Jen, I’m playing A&A all day today, so, I won’t have time to put in my 2 cents until much later, so please stop saying things like “the rule stands as currently written”. we are all still discussing R&D and I don’t want it pushed through. besides, we still need to vote on which versions we like. so stop rushing this rule, there are a lot of great ideas here and we need to consider all of them before something gets finalized.
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Would you guys like me to make up two versions so then they can be put to a vote? They would be the same text, except one would have cash on hand and one would have income.
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We can, Vance, but right now we have 1 person, who admittedly says he will never play with technology, and everyone else who wants cash on hand. There might be silent viewers who really don’t care one way or the other. It was in the interests of preventing abuse I relented to the compromise of only 5 IPC being saved that counts towards free dice…
Guess you’d have the poll says:
Option 1: Per written rule, no restrictions.
Option 2: Per written rule, only 5 IPC or less counts towards free dice.
Option 3: Per written rule, no saved income counts.(Although, to be honest, I’d say Option 1 and Option 2 are identical to how they would be played in the game.)
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Sure no problem. I was just offering.
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@Cmdr:
Given this, why not say a nation may save up to 5 IPC (since they come in 1s, 5s and 10s) in any given round to apply towards getting a free technology roll next round. This is about the maximal end of any nation’s realistic savings in any given round is far short of “buying” a die without spending money. We’ll also conceed that Treasury Money does not count for your free dice - but may be used to purchase dice!
No reason to limit the amount someone can save, it may be a poor tactic but lets not remove it from play. Also I agree that you can spend your ipcs any way you see fit and that includes tech.National Objectives - the major source of Germany, Japan, Russia, America and Australia’s income (if attained) will count towards your “income” to determine what free dice you may or may not qualify for.
I agree that NO’s should count towards this.So are you fine with the revision that only 5 of your saved IPC can count towards qualifying for free dice and that no plundered IPC (from taking a capitol) count for free dice at all?
I grant, if America saves their 52 IPC from round 3’s builds and then collects 70 IPC they would qualify for 3 dice and that could be a problem, but I disagree preventing a nation with only a few IPC to save them for a free die is a problem. 5 seems a nice, small number that allows you to get a die if you are really close to it, but not enough that it is an abuse.
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Ya know, this saving IPCs to get free tech rolls seems a little far fetched to me. If I am Italy I usually need every last dollar to buy units and I need them NOW! So, yeah I am fine with that; not speaking for anyone else though.
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@Cmdr:
Unless we get a sudden flury of votes, it appears the rule stands as currently written (I editted it to include the max 5 IPC saved from last round to be counted for FREE DICE, it can still be used for units, obviously, or saved again.)
dumb idea. Arbitrary limits added just for clutter?
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@Cmdr:
Unless we get a sudden flury of votes, it appears the rule stands as currently written (I editted it to include the max 5 IPC saved from last round to be counted for FREE DICE, it can still be used for units, obviously, or saved again.)
dumb idea. Arbitrary limits added just for clutter?
So you’re saying just let it stand with all saved money counted? As Vance said, most nations need all their cash now (and even then, they usually need more than what they have) and I tend to agree with that statement. Compromising and only having 5 IPC count at least gives nations a chance to get the extra 1 or 2 IPC needed for the next teir while stopping (say) America from saving their whole paycheck just to have 3 dice on Round 4 (just before engaging in War.)
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I’m saying each rule we add to Delta should be added to fill a development hole that Larry left us. Not totally arbitrary and meaningless. I don’t want a delta rule book that has all these little rules that you have to know about…KISS wins and this 5 ipc limit is not KISS.
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I could actually imagine myself doing that as USA, for 3 reasons: 1)the other side can’t guess my intentions from my builds, 2) If I am going Atlantic I will want to buy lots of cheap ground units instead of battleships etc., and thats easier to coordinate if I just save up my big wad for when my minor ICs become majors, and 3) I get free tech rolls as a bonus! So that’s not really such an unlikely thing to do come to think of it. Its very gamey though.
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