Research & Development Discussion - Delta+1

Let me try to explain this:

1. As it stands now, the little guy can use that one or two IPC they saved because they had nothing realistic to purchase to qualify for a single die roll for technology.  This is literally the only level where saving money makes sense as after the first die, it’s prohibitively expensive to save money.  If it is not prohibitive enough, then we can increase the charts until you are happy no one is saving money, unless it is to qualify for the level 1 die (or you are within like 3-5 IPC of the next rung.)

2. Under the new system proposed by mantlefan, you have to look at what territories you have at the start of your next round to determine what dice you get.  This is going to abuse things like Germany racing a transport down to deny England a second die.  Or Russia suiciding a tank to prevent a German second die.  Small nations are going to get CREAMED just to prevent them from getting a die, EVER.  I’d dedicate 3 transports a loaded carrier, a destroyer and a battleship to making sure India and Australia are permanently prevented from getting a free die for technology - EVER.  It’s too easy to do, keep it under 10 IPC and it gets no die.

If we go with the second system, then we should eliminate ALL income that is not territory related.  That way the little guy can get some payback taking a territory the big guys need for their second or third dice too!

@Cmdr:

Jim:

No, the little guy gets NOTHING if you stop them from saving IPC to qualify for their one die.  That’s my biggest beef with the INCOME only rule.

If we go income only, then it should be based on what territories you control at the end of your round, use that to figure out what amount of free dice you get.  National Objectives, Saved Money and Captured Money are all “extra” income that should either all be counted, or none of it counted.

Can’t this be fixed by giving a tech token at the end of X’s turn (based on their income at that moment), to be used at the beginning of X’s next turn?
(this way also no one gets free tech from turn 1)

@special:

@Cmdr:

Jim:

No, the little guy gets NOTHING if you stop them from saving IPC to qualify for their one die.  That’s my biggest beef with the INCOME only rule.

If we go income only, then it should be based on what territories you control at the end of your round, use that to figure out what amount of free dice you get.  National Objectives, Saved Money and Captured Money are all “extra” income that should either all be counted, or none of it counted.

Can’t this be fixed by giving a tech token at the end of X’s turn (based on their income at that moment), to be used at the beginning of X’s next turn?
(this way also no one gets free tech from turn 1)

It does not have to be fixed!  All we need to do is NOT CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

I’m good with the following brackets:
1-10 IPC, 1 Die
11-79 IPC, 2 Dice
80-139 IPC, 3 Dice
140-199, 4 Dice
200-259, 5 Dice
260+, 6 Dice

If it means I can save money!  If it means you don’t get penalyzed for playing the game the way it’s always been played.  If it means that the little guy will get a chance at technology.  You know, the three things we demanded when we started technology discussions?

@mantlefan:

@Cmdr:

If we go income only, then it should be based on what territories you control at the end of your round, use that to figure out what amount of free dice you get.  National Objectives, Saved Money and Captured Money are all “extra” income that should either all be counted, or none of it counted.

Why should it be all or none? Why should NO’s be lumped in with capital plunder?

Make your argument, quit stalling.

@Cmdr:

If it means I can save money!  If it means you don’t get penalyzed for playing the game the way it’s always been played.  If it means that the little guy will get a chance at technology.  You know, the three things we demanded when we started technology discussions?

But… but…saving is bad!

@Young:

What about my idea to make the R&D phase last in the turn sequence, this would go a long way when rewarding income and NOs gained within the same turn.

It is that way, Grasshopper.

Currently:
Your turn…
Take whatever cash you have (saved + collected) and find out how many free dice you have.
Take whatever dice you purchased during your purchase units phase and add it to your free dice.
Your technologies, if found, take effect now - just before your opponent’s turn.

@mantlefan:

If russia is so desperate that they want to blow 6 IPC’s to prevent one die from Germany, I don’t see why that’s a problem.

The little guy’s extra IPC or two that they would save would NOT move them into the next level  at least as often as it would allow them to move in. Any threshold boundary is going to be a little arbitrary, regardless of whose system is in effect. You are overstating the effect that 1-2 IPC would have, especially since your thresholds are so huge. Sure, 1 IPC could move you from 19 to 20 (or whatever the threshold is) and get you a die, but it could move you from 20-21, 21-22, 22-23…48-49 without changing a thing.

Maybe Russia sees that the only technology left would give Germany a significant advantage that they dont have now, so they blitz a tank to drop Germany from 2 Dice to 1 Die and prevent 17% chance of Germany getting it.

@mantlefan:

Quit saying that since a player is not REWARDED for saving IPC, that that means they are being PENALIZED. It’s unfair. I have already gave reasons why income is better than cash, so has jimmy. Read back.

You are MAJOR LEAGUE penalyzed for saving!  I already proved this!

A)  You lose units on the board
B)  You lose position on the board
C)  You lose potential income on the board
D,)  You lose threat on your opponent on the board
E)  You gain threat against you on the board.

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

@JimmyHat:

1. CoH can be adjusted by the player, by saving ipcs.  This cannot be disrupted by your opponents.
2. CoH adds another reward to the nation that captures a captial besides the large ipc infusion.
3. CoH rewards sloppy play and foolish land grabs.
4. CoH doesn’t provide an incentive for all nations to defend the front over defense in depth.  Look especially at France here, but really everywhere.

Yeah here are those amended reasons.  Have a crack at those Jen, I can provide clarity if needed.

@Cmdr:

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

I agree, that’s not to say people won’t do it.  People will be more likely to save a few ipcs however if it means getting another free die roll next round. (going by CoH)

@mantlefan:

Where in post 1 does it say that it happens at the end of the turn?

In the rule.  If you are not going to read the rules, then maybe you shouldnt be participating.

Right below the chart, it states that all technologies are applied at the end of your turn.  There are no surprise “gotchas, I have LRA now” situations.  If that’s the basis for your argument, then we’ve invalidated it and can now proceed.

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

I agree, that’s not to say people won’t do it.  People will be more likely to save a few ipcs however if it means getting another free die roll next round. (going by CoH)

Then there is no problem.  It’s now everyone against Mantlefan in which case he is out voted and we may put this issue to bed.

Oops, sorry, must have hit the lock when I was flying the mouse around…opened…

@Cmdr:

@JimmyHat:

@Cmdr:

Saving large sums of money has already been PROVEN to be a horrible idea!  No one is going to save the money required to get another die.  The ball is in your court, convince the jury why the idea we all voted for - twice - is bad and your idea is not worse.  (It is worse.  I can prove it’s worse.  I have proven it is worse.  It will destroy the reasons we brought free technology rolls into the game in the first place - which might be why you are trying to make these changes, to undo what we wanted to do in the first place.)

I agree, that’s not to say people won’t do it.  People will be more likely to save a few ipcs however if it means getting another free die roll next round. (going by CoH)

Then there is no problem.  It’s now everyone against Mantlefan in which case he is out voted and we may put this issue to bed.

Like grandpa peepap on Squidbillies, you got me again!

I guess I am confused as to what you two are arguing about, or more accurately the topic switches constantly so its impossible to track.  My problem is with going by CoH over income…for the reasons listed.  I also think you should be able to purchase 1 extra die if you desire instead of having to pay for 4 as a minimum, because then perhaps minor nations have a shot.

Also this whole tech structure puts the corn cob to the minor powers.  Guess it might only be best in 2v2 games or less.

Jenn will probably log on tomorrow and answer some other question besides looking at my reason why CoH is a bad idea.  That would take too much thinking.

Okay, I explained both rules to my 9 year old son.  Grasshopper and others have said they prefer simpler over complicated (I think Jimmy did too in the Neutrals thread) and this seemed like the best possible test.  A little background, he learned how to play classic a couple of months ago and, given he only has like 8 weeks experience, and that only 1 game a weekend (or we’d NEVER get anything done!) he has a pretty good understanding of the game.

I set the board down in front of him (the one for income) and I placed the American marker down on 60 IPC.  I handed him 87 IPC and said:  “You saved 7 IPC from last round.” (He immediately said “but Mom!  That’s stupid, why would you save 7 IPC!  I could get 2 Infantry for 7 IPC!”  I told him that maybe he was holding out for a submarine or transport and he took that as a valid reason.)  “So you saved 7 IPC, now you collected 60 IPC because that’s where your token is on the board.” (okay…) The tough part was explaining national objectives, I told them there were these special territories on the board that were worth nothing to everyone except special countries - like wild cards.  “Now you have 20 IPC in bonus income.”  We’re all good with that.

I told him for every 40 IPC he had he got to roll a free technology die. (He loves technology, I introduced it a couple of weeks ago and he’s blown more cash on that then on anything else except Battleships!).  Then I tried to tell him - no wait, you can’t use those 27 IPC because they’re special.  Swear to the internet gods he said, and I quote “No they are NOT, they are just like these over there!” and he pointed to the other 60 IPC.

Imagine explaining that over, and over, and over, AND OVER to hundreds of internet users over the next two years.  The “only these special IPC” rule submitted by Mantlefan and not really supported by anyone else - at least no one else seems to be able to really understand what he’s trying to say - and no, I don’t think he does either - is SO COMPLICATED as to render the entire system useless.  “Why cant I just use all my money?”  Simple, eloquent - easy.

Whatever money you have is the money you have.  Even a 9 year old figured that out.  We, as adults, are trying to make something “simpler” by making it WAY more complicated!

@mantlefan:

YG says
@Young:

What about my idea to make the R&D phase last in the turn sequence, this would go a long way when rewarding income and NOs gained within the same turn.

You say
@Cmdr:

It is that way, Grasshopper.

Currently:
Your turn…
Take whatever cash you have (saved + collected) and find out how many free dice you have.
Take whatever dice you purchased during your purchase units phase and add it to your free dice.
Your technologies, if found, take effect now - just before your opponent’s turn

Where does it say in post 1 that the R&D Phase is at the end? YG says it should be moved, you say it already is, but I don’t see it anywhere. Please quote the portion of the rule that says that. I have read it 10 times and still can’t find it.

@Cmdr:

@mantlefan:

Where in post 1 does it say that it happens at the end of the turn?

In the rule.  If you are not going to read the rules, then maybe you shouldnt be participating.

Right below the chart, it states that all technologies are applied at the end of your turn.  There are no surprise “gotchas, I have LRA now” situations.  If that’s the basis for your argument, then we’ve invalidated it and can now proceed.

See!  I knew you were not even reading the rules!  If you were, you’d have seen the “finallized” rule as listed.  (It’s in the next post.)  You were probably skipping around in pages and were erroneiously told that page 1 was the final rule - that was the starting point, the rule that was voted into existence with the condition it be ironed out in discussion!  There you go, as you can plainly see, it’s already moved to the end of the turn sequence. (It was moved in one of the first few pages, just not codified.  The point was raised of ambush technologies, and was later declared by consensus that it be moved to the end before being applied to give everyone time to adjust their position.)