Or perhaps if the Axis attacks, they join whichever Allied navy the Allies choose. And if the Allies attack they join whichever Axis navy the Axis chooses.
Or say it goes pirate if it’s home is destroyed and won’t join anyone? That way we don’t get questions about, “Well, can I sail a submarine over to the fleet and get Turkey since it’s pro-Axis?” Rather not have that issue at all.
If it goes pirate, it’s no longer a disincentive or balancing force though. Unless you mean something different than I am gathering.
Wheatbeer, I am happy with the Collaborative Neutral Blocks rules.
Saudi Arabia would be a good place for an American minor IC when the Axis invade Turkey.
Also like the neutral navies and air forces and the 3IPC propaganda cost for American imperialism.
As for who controls the neutrals and their navies/air forces, I would suggest Italy for the Axis side and France for the Allies side if for no other reason than they come last in the turn order. So if turkey is attacked, the ships in z100 become French.
The only other piece I would like to suggest is a further deterrent to invading spain or turkey:
Sweden and Switzerland
If any Allied power attacks any territory or warship in the Iberia Block, Sweden and Switzerland immediately become pro-axis neutral. If any Axis power attacks any territory or warship in the Islamic Block, Sweden and Switzerland become pro-allies neutral.
My issue with the conditional: what happens if the Allies invade Spain on turn 5 but then the Axis invade Turkey on turn 6? Or if the Axis invade Turkey turn 5 and the Allies invade Spain turn 6? Will Sweden flip back and forth? Or only flip once?
The suggestion that was voted for had no mention of neutral navies, a change like that may need to be voted on separately in a different poll
If a strict neutral territory or a member of its block is attacked by the Allies, its navy (if any) immediately falls under the command of the Axis navy of the Axis player’s choice. If a strict neutral territory or a member of its block is attacked by the Axis, its navy (if any) immediately falls under the command of the Allies navy of the Allies player’s choice.
Does anyone feel this will create problems?
Young Grasshopper, I’ll move navies to the bottom and label it “suggested” for now then.
I would say once it is flipped, it is flipped. So maybe add something general like:
Once a true neutral territory becomes pro-allies, it can never revert to being true neutral or become pro-axis. Once a true neutral territory becomes pro-axis, it can never revert to being true neutral or become pro-allied.
replaced older rules proposal, see Simplified Collaborative Neutral Block rules later in thread
I don’t want to undermine this topic but what exactly are the objections people are having with the current neutrals system?
Wheatbeer that is Perfect!
Everything is fine and I would be happy to include your neutral blocks rule into Delta+1. however, the suggested neutral naval units is an extreme version of the original and would need to win in its own poll as a separate addition to the already Delta rule of neutral blocks, sorry. I don’t want to see a lot of added layers to the rule that was voted for making it very different than what people originally wanted, when you have the final product, let me know and I will look for loop holes.
@special:
I don’t want to undermine this topic but what exactly are the objections people are having with the current neutrals system?
It is unrealistic to assume that a strict neutral would go to war for a side, just because another strict neutral on the other side of the world was invaded.
And it would make the game more fun because it opens up new possibilities. The way it is now, no one ever attacks true neutrals and that’s kind of crummy.
@special:
I don’t want to undermine this topic but what exactly are the objections people are having with the current neutrals system?
I have a few issues with OOB/A2 neutrals system.
First, I think it offers a stronger disincentive to the Axis than to the Allies. The Axis often won’t be poised to take advantage of South American, Afghan, and African neutral armies/territories if they turn pro-Axis due to Allied aggression.
Second, like Vance, the cost is so prohibitive that neutral crushes are rarely employed. I believe the game can be made more fun by expanding the reasonable strategic options for both the Axis and the Allies.
Third, like JimmyHat, it doesn’t make any geopolitical sense (I admit this isn’t a gameplay issue, but it bugs me nonetheless … neutral blocks will never make it perfect, but it will feel better to me on these grounds)
@Vance:
And it would make the game more fun because it opens up new possibilities. The way it is now, no one ever attacks true neutrals and that’s kind of crummy.
What are you talking about? I attack them ALL THE TIME, with the United States. I just line up my attacks so that America hits Sweeden and Spain simultanoiusly and England follows up with an attack on Turkey (which is no longer true neutral, but pro-axis.)
@Cmdr:
I attack them ALL THE TIME, with the United States. I just line up my attacks so that America hits Sweeden and Spain simultanoiusly and England follows up with an attack on Turkey (which is no longer true neutral, but pro-axis.)
I haven’t faced an opponent who did this. But it does go along with my first point. In the event of an attack on neutrals, currently, the Allies can far more easily deny the Axis new pro-Axis territory, than can the Axis deny the Allies new pro-Allies territory.
@Cmdr:
@Vance:
And it would make the game more fun because it opens up new possibilities. The way it is now, no one ever attacks true neutrals and that’s kind of crummy.
What are you talking about? I attack them ALL THE TIME, with the United States. I just line up my attacks so that America hits Sweeden and Spain simultanoiusly and England follows up with an attack on Turkey (which is no longer true neutral, but pro-axis.)
It has been determined in past threads that Jens strategy in regards to attacking strict neutrals, would be rare for most games.
Jen is clearly an above average player. A typical player does not attacks neutrals with the current rules.
Okay, when attacking true neutrals you have to take certain things into account.
1) Don’t EVER do this with an axis nation! Unless you own E. USA, W. USA and C. USA, attacking a true neutral with an axis power is like handing the allies the game.
2) Spain is 1 movement from E. USA and E. USA is 1 movement form Spain. If you wanted to go the conventional way, it would take 2 moves to get your units to France via England. Attacking Spain basically cuts the needed transports by 33% and the movement time by 50% (and is a 2 IPC territory so you can put a complex there.)
3) Either own Finland/Norway or be able to hit Sweeden the same round you hit Spain. Why give them the free guys, especially when it’s not all that hard to line up an attack on Sweeden really. (England in Norway with a large enough stack should be able to do it.)
4) With English complexes in Iraq and C. Persia (where i normally have them) I generally get a pretty nice army to use to hit Turkey. Far easier to walk to Greece than to have to walk to Jordan and load transports (that you have to protect) to land in Greece. At 6 units a round, it takes 3 rounds to have enough units to take out Turkey - add in the rounds to get the complexes up, this is about round 6 or 7 when you are ready to hit Turkey - not that you have to do it then!
5) Axis powers have no access to true neutrals if you hit Spain, Turkey and Sweeden. They just dont. So there’s no risk for the allies in hitting them!
@Young:
@Cmdr:
@Vance:
And it would make the game more fun because it opens up new possibilities. The way it is now, no one ever attacks true neutrals and that’s kind of crummy.
What are you talking about? I attack them ALL THE TIME, with the United States. I just line up my attacks so that America hits Sweeden and Spain simultanoiusly and England follows up with an attack on Turkey (which is no longer true neutral, but pro-axis.)
It has been determined in past threads that Jens strategy in regards to attacking strict neutrals, would be rare for most games.
