Straights of Gibralter and Danish Straights

@Ichabod1862 said in Strict Neutrals - Planes Flying Through:

@Krieghund

I get you have been declared an official ruling somehow.

That would be because I was a developer and editor for the game.

I’ve been playing Triplea live a lot lately…gotten used to clicking “DOW on the strict neutrals.” That’s besides the situation really.

Triple A doesn’t get everything right. Some shortcuts are taken for whatever reason. Page 10 of the Rulebook is clear on this matter.

Your ruling to me I think eisegetes into the text a fuller meaning not intended.

Germany conducts combat moves into Turkey while simultaneously combat moving planes through Turkey, but due to the ruling this means they somehow really have to simultaneously respect their air space? Makes no sense which makes me think you exegeted into the rule book an unintended end state.

page. 11 Europe book. “Air units can’t fly over an unfriendly neutral unless they are attacking it.”

The point of the rule on page 11 is that you cannot simply fly planes through strict neutrals in general.

For your interpretation, the rule should say all air units no matter what until AFTER attacking it. Because I think they should be able to fly over it even if just 1 infantry attacks the same neutral territory. The point of the rule is you can’t fly through like ground cannot go into the pripet marshes.

Germany is attacking it with air units. Why the interpretation that other air units cannot simultaneously fly through? The rules intent is to prevent flying through when never and not attacking them in general.

It’s not a ruling, it’s the rule. The rule is straightforward as written. “Air units can’t fly over an unfriendly neutral unless they are attacking it.” It says air units cannot fly over an unfriendly neutral, then provides an exception for attacking it. An air unit that is flying through a neutral territory is not attacking it, so it is not allowed. It may only fly into one to attack it. That is the intent of the rule. Any other interpretation is simply reading something into it that isn’t there.

Per page 11 of the Rulebook, once a neutral territory is invaded, it is no longer neutral, so the restriction no longer applies. However, since all combat movement is simultaneous, the restriction is not lifted until after the combat movement phase in which it was invaded.

I hope this clears things up.

@Panther Thanks for clarifying. It may be best not to even include a carrier with a guest fighter when attacking.

I’m going to say that I don’t really like that this strategy is as effective as it is. If Japan changed the J2 buy to 2CV+1TT even full Pacific naval buys by USA wouldn’t stop this half the time, although obviously that would weaken the ground attack.

My view is that the game is a little broken here.

UK helping defend USA should stop this strategy pretty dead with troops/planes dropped in Quebec but really, should they have to? The other possibility is UK/Anzac retake of the Philippines which would help USA income if they can hold it but distracting Japan from its objectives may be enough.

The only reasons to get Denmark as Allies is to deny the NO, get a shot at Berlin, or draw German forces west.  The Baltic Sea itself is not a big deal.

There are so many other ways to hurt Germany.  If he has that one so well guarded, hit him where he isn’t.

@larrymarx:

Europe rulebook, page 9, paragraph 2, sentence 3:

“You can�t move sea units through a canal or narrow strait that is controlled by a neutral territory or by a power with which you are at war.”

And besides, why would a nation at war even allow its enemy to cross and even for that matter, why would you even let them get close AND why doesn’t the enemy just take the straight or canal?

After some reading I found that the Copenhagen Convention of 1857 named the Danish Straights an International Waterway free to all military and commercial shipping. This is not the case for the Turkish Straights which were directly controlled by Turkey.

In light of that I have changed my stance and believe that while Denmark is neutral (doesn’t matter if pro axis/allies as far as game terms) warships from either side should be able to pass through the straight until the Germans (or allies) take it. Once Denmark is activated then passage of the straight is controlled by that power.

Also found that Churchill had a plan (Operation Catherine) to put a large surface fleet into the Baltic in the spring of 1940 to disrupt trade between Germany, Russia, Sweden (iron ore) etc…but the plan was shelved.

Hitler invaded Denmark and Norway for control of this waterway to keep the allies out of the Baltic, and gain bases along the Norwegian coastline. This would insure trade, and better access to the North Sea (sub warfare and merchant raiding).

pretty cool…i will be reading this thread with great interest!

@Cmdr:

But you wont get Washington.

For one, there’s already units in the US, all of which can be in DC if need be.  There’s the British in Canada.  British ships to block the way, American ships to prevent the landing from ever happening too. (6 Aircraft already on hand, what’s it cost to put 3 carriers in the water to add all those fighters too?  48 IPC?  Leaving what, 22 IPC?  Another 2 fighters for scrambing!)

You will have the effect of pulling all the Americans out of the Pacific for a round, however.  If that is your goal.

True, it could be prevented, bringing your turn 4 fleet to sz 89 (G.O.Mexico) which puts it 2 turns from Hawaii, or the W. Coast, with those carriers in the East coast, I just prevented a build in the west coast. Those carriers will be 2 turns from Hawaii if they go that way. Seems like it would be a major disruption for a planned USA Pacific first approach, buy Japan 2 additional worry free turns, and even permit the sacking of Either India or Australia before the US could thwart them.

All this by simply sliding a few boats already in the water to another spot in the water. True, It would buy Russia 2 turns as well as my transports would be out of position…but given that Pacific first is your favored approach, taking your attention from the Pacific seems warranted.