How to counter J3 India Crush?

@cond1024:

After reading the posts it seems this title is wrong, it should read how to perform the India crush, cause I’m not seeing any counter arguments. Jim any ideas how to counter?

Well, a lot of folks like myself haven’t really played much with this strat, so we gotta see it before we can wade in on what to do against it. Me?, I’m gonna take Jim’s word for it…

@jim010:

I don’t claim to win every time, as s#!t happens and mistakes are made, but I do claim I’ll win 3/4.

We’ve already got so many Japanese wins in on this game already that it isn’t even close to being funny.

At this point, it’s kinda hard to get excited about yet another Japanese super strat.

I just got back from Dayton the other day after three days of gaming and beer drinking with Buckeyeboy. 8 hours of gaming Monday night, a marathon 16 hours Tuesday, and 8 more Wednesday. I lost track of how many hours we’ve spent on AAP:40 at 150 hours. We’re somewhere around 230-250 hours played  by my nearest guess now.

This past week we went back and played some OOB games, we looked at Jims J3 India crush, and a big air stack in Singapore Allied defense.

I’m kinda spent on the game at this point.

Larry made the comment that he liked a challenge as the Allies, and that the Japanese may have been made too powerful.

I like a challenge too, but after a while it just gets to be no fun playing the Allies. And it even gets to be no fun playing the Japanese too. When you have a winning strat that works as the Japanese, it gets boring after a while. The Allies get frustrating as you have to play error free and get some help from the dice.

I hope Europe comes out soon, because I’m just to the point where I find myself wanting to just throw my hands up and walk away from AAP:40.

Wrong set up charts, not enough Japanese dive bomber pieces, so much errata and rules clarifications it made my head spin, and all to come to the point that the game has some serious set up and balance flaws.

It all adds up to not much fun as a game, for me.

After reading the posts it seems this title is wrong, it should read how to perform the India crush, cause I’m not seeing any counter arguments. Jim any ideas how to counter?

The counters that did work were when the allies stacked up in front of me and I had to air sweep them - which I will always do.  Unfortunatley, I have enough air power to kill just about everything in my first throw on each battle offered, but when I lost, it was because I rolled badly under odds or the Allies rolled way over (or both).

It’s a crummy counter to hope for luck, but my last game I lost 16 planes when I should have only lost 8.  If you create possibilities for luck, the luck may come.

But when it goes to odds or I’m lucky (and when you throw more dice than the other guy, you are more likely to roll up than he is) then you are screwed.

I have just as many hours on this as Kauf and others both online and with friends.

But I will say this - after playing this much for entertainment, I’d say the money I spent on the game is a bargain.

I bought Guadalcanal and played it twice.  And that was it.  Now that is a bad investment.

… and after having played this game so much, I am getting bored with it, and will likely finish up the couple of games I have left and move onto Europe - and try the India crush there in the global game.

Can you imagine taking India on turn 3 in the global game (as happens here) and then building 10 tanks out of it for a couple of turns?  Russia is dogmeat, if this is possible.

In global UK will have options they don’t have in Pac40. There will be UK reinforcements in the area (as well as Russian), so they may be able to bulk up and stand pat. UK will have more navy in the region as well.  Another option (not so great) would be to side step you (move to W India) and give you (E) India (trade it). Then come back to liberate, and destroy your Jap ground troops next turn (you will have no air cover, unless Italy jumps in). If you are attempting a J3 India crush, chances are the UK (Pac) won’t have that much $, so it would only be handing over a few bucks. I know this isn’t the greatest way to go, but it might delay Jap a round or two for other things to develop. An India crush w/J3 attack could be worth it if you catch the UK player in a coma, right after he gets the $ islands.

Most people seem to think the J1 attack will not happen in the global game (not wanting US involved in Europe early). How do you think it will go Jim (taken in account that we don’t know set-up yet).

@jim010:

I have just as many hours on this as Kauf and others both online and with friends.

But I will say this - after playing this much for entertainment, I’d say the money I spent on the game is a bargain.

Well, I might be tempted to go there too with that line of thought, but not quite. I actually shelled out the $99.99 for this one, and for that price, I ought to be able to pick it up and play it whenever the mood strikes my friends or myself, by my way of thinking anyway.

@jim010:

… and after having played this game so much, I am getting bored with it, and will likely finish up the couple of games I have left and move onto Europe - and try the India crush there in the global game.

We are at the same point, at least I am, regarding getting bored with AAP:40.

However, it appears that Larry has just endorsed a set up change that may change things around.

Most people seem to think the J1 attack will not happen in the global game (not wanting US involved in Europe early). How do you think it will go Jim (taken in account that we don’t know set-up yet).

Of course we are all just guessing, but my thoughts are based on this:

1. Every global game I have played was won or lost in Russia
2. The Pacific never had an impact on the war in Russia
3. Unless Japan attacks Russia, Japan is useless

If the set-up in Pacific is the same, then I will do the India Crush, and I will pull out all the stops to do it.  I would do so because if Japan is largely irrelevent as in previous games to the outcome, then they must contribute to defeating Russia.  On J4 I can then produce 10 tanks out of India, and maybe do it again the second turn.  After that, I assume the flow will be lessened.  That means 20 tanks threatening Stalingrad on turn 6 or so?  With the Germans close themselves at that point?  And what if I could use India as a base to fly as many planes as I can to land on a German stack?  I could conceivably land on a German stack by turn 5.  I will still have plenty to fight a defense retreat back to Tokyo - the game will still be won or lost in Russia long before Tokyo is taken.

This is assuming that the UK have very little to reinforce eastern India, or can’t for other reasons.  I am also assuming that there is not a major factory on western India.  Although I can’t see why they would put 2 major factories back to back.

As Europe will be a ‘balanced’ game in its own right, Japan being able to directly contribute in force in Russia on the Europe side on turn 5 would unhinge the game, I would think.

As for what to do on J2 and J3 in the India Crush,

Downloaded my maps first.  (the first is the combat moves, the second is the NCM and builds after the battles rolling to odds).

J2

You will be very reactionary in this turn, but you will need to kill any potential blockers that can make it to sz38 or sz38.  Or at least be in those sea zones with enough force that the Allies can’t force their way through.  That is easily done since the entire Japanese fleet will be down there anyway.

If he tries to stand in Bur, Sze Yun, Mal or Shm, wipe them all out.  Since 99% of your planes are in Kwa, and you have a loaded TT in sz42 and a tank in Phi, there is more than enough to take all 3.  You want to minimize your plane casualties, so divide it up in a manner that you kill him in your 1st throw.  Since you will have some ground units in Shm, Mal and Yun, those can use less planes.

If for some reason you can’t hit them all, then hit the UK forces, as China can’t help the UK at all.

You will then bring your 3 loaded TTs from Japan down to sz36 and build your naval and air base and put it in Kwa.

Again, NCM is very dependant on where the allies are.  A DD blocking in sz16 is usually needed.

J3

The main target is now India.  Best case scenario is you only need to hit India and not much else.  You will at have the 3 loaded TTs in sz36 that make India, as well, you will have a couple units in Shm or Mal that can also make it on the other TTs that are already down there.  Every plane you have in Kwa (99% or the Jap airforce)  will also make it.  This is complete overkill, so you can easily free up planes to hit targets in China, or fly back to Phi and start focussing on ANZAC and the US.

As I stated before, J1 is pretty scripted, but J2 and J3, the details really depend on where the allies are.  They can’t stop you from taking India (unless you pissed off the dice gods), and they allies won’t be in any real position on turn 3 to do anything to you.  Besides, the fleet is no longer needed down south, so it can all be moved to sz35.  Next turn you’ll have $60 + to buy fleet with, and you’ll take the remaining DEI.  The land forces you have in China plus 6 or so planes is enough to take push them to the back and then take them out.

If you have had to buy ground units to defeat China, then something went wrong.

Typically, I have had to push the Allies out of Car - do that as soon as possible.  Once that is down, then it is down hill for the allies.

Russia will have 3 stacks of 6 inf in Siberia. Also, J1 brings the US into the war against Germany sooner, which will help Russia

Again, just a guess, but I would think that by the time those 3 stacks did anything useful, my 20 tanks and airforce are helping the Germans.  Once I’ve given the Germans those units, I’ll turtle with Japan.

Everything is a guess at this point.  All I will say for sure is if I can do it, then the global game is broken too.

But I figure it will be anyway.  2 supposedly balanced games joined to make a bigger balanced game.  What am I supposed to think?

Well its true, its propably going to be hard to balance. But it will also be a lot easier for the americans to reinforce the russians in the global game, its only 1 turn from Wus to Soviet far east, so if they want to they can put 8-9 fighters there each turn.

As far as global goes, there are alot more options to stop the India crush.

1. Hide boats in sea zones for blocking (in the left side of the map)
2. Contribute Europe UK troops to fighting in the pacific
3. Russian 18 INF in the north
4. Northern US shuck.  setting up with US1 infantry buy, followed by turn 2 armor/transport/destroyers, ending with around 10 US land troops a turn into Soviet Far East on US3 and on.  I really hope to hell this doesn’t happen, but its too appealing not to do vs a japan strat that moves troops/boats south so early.  Japan will have to have a decent force in striking range of SZ 3 at all times to prevent this.

I really think #4 is going to demand japan keeps some boats up north to prevent, and I really think #1 will be capable of delaying India crush to turn 4, and japan securing it till turn 5.

Granted if larry just swaps the BB with the cruiser, Japan cannot safely take Java, which means UK can hide blockers anyway, or build fleet, to keep india crush to a turn 4 ‘going off’ so to speak.  Which will give the US a bit more time in the north, possibly just enough time to get china and northern russia to punish japan for that move.

If Japan manages to take India in the global game, I don’t see any 10 tank buys going on.  Unless of course America has abandoned the Pacific entirely.

For me, I think the attraction as the US would be to pool my money and dump it all in one theatre, but alternate every other turn.  I’m still dividing between theatres, but my single turn buys will come in chunks of 4-5 BBs at a time, and 1-2 loaded tt.  Imagine on J3 that there’s 6BB 2 Carriers, 1CC, 1DD, 1SS on Hawaii.

I’m not saying anything for sure, yet.

Looks the tank buy wouldn’t get there in time, anyway, but the planes can land in the space infront of Stalingrad on turn 5.  Or hit Stalingrad turn 5 with a German followup turn 6.  Or doing the same to Moscow turn 6.  After seeing the set-up cards, there is really nothing in the way to reinforce India against the India Crush.  I just doubt that the US can get to Tokyo by turn 3.  And by turn 4 I’ll have my $60+ to spend on whatever (stacks of inf in Tokyo) and the fleet back in Phi already.  I would think that it would take until turn 6 or 7 before Tokyo is taken at the earliest with a KJF.  The massive imbalance in scale between the 2 theatres will affect the global game in some way, I’m sure.

I won’t comment any further until I have the game in hand and have played.  I’m just assuming at this point.

3 boats can get there from Africa, as can a fighter.  Also, a cruiser can go the long way around south America but way too late vs India crush.

The best thing, and I’m not 100% sure on this yet, but I’m pretty sure with the extra boats and sea zones UK will be able to do a block of some sort to prevent the India crush, or atleast force japan to use most of its navy to do an India crush.  The UK/france can get 2 more destroyers, and 1 cruiser, along with a transport (but it would be a waste) to India and its sea zone by turn 2.  That would give them with current setup 3 destroyers, 2 cruisers, plus 29 IPCs worth of boats in the sea zone.  Optimum purchase would be a carrier, and two subs.  That would give them a total of 11 hits with 24 defense in the sea zone (assuming fighters on the carrier, and they can even be ANZAC fighters).  Along with an extra 4 units in India (1 from west, 2 transport, 1 extra plane) and I don’t see a J3 india crush going off.  Granted, Egypt would fall, but that could be recovered.  And if you go with the transports being moved back, that would grant the UK an additional 4 IPCs so they could build a carrier and an Airbase on the island instead of the 2 subs, granting an additional 6 hits and 23? defense in the sea zone.

I think the main deterrent against the India crush will be America’s total of +70 per turn from the war economy

Can someone please tell me what this “India Crush” is all about? I haven’t play the game yet but I have been hearing this phrase for a while now.

Read posts 34, 35, 47, 48.