Can Germany win without Africa?

[frood]

So I don’t get it NPB  :? - what’s your approach - east or west with the Med. Fleet?

Here’s what I did: I used the sub together with 3 or 4 air units to take out the UK battleship above Algeria. That worked well, I’d do it again because that sub is likely toast anyway, this gets some use out of it.

The Ger Battleship I sent head to head against the UK Destroyer. I killed the destroyer, but on the next turn my battleship was scrap when the India fleet came through the Suez. Didn’t really like that, but it gave Japan free reign in the Atlantic.

The TRN I used to shuttle two extra units from Southern Europe to help retake the Ukraine. That was a very bad idea. It left my attack on Anglo-Egypt underpowered, which did not go well. Also, I left all my shiny expensive tanks in Ukraine, where they were vulnerable to counterattack by Russia. They were only saved by some bad dice by Russia.

However, as I’ve said above, this game I’m not really missing Africa - Germany is pressing hard on Russia and keeping the UK/US at bay. But this is not a typical game I think - the dice have been somewhat in my favour almost every round.

[Jennifer]

@froodster:

I may havemisunderstood. I thought it was maybe Jennifer who said she lost everytime she went heavy into Africa. Not sure though.

Everytime I go heavy Africa with America I loose.  Well, I one once, but that’s because my opponent was incompetant, not because the strategy was good.

When I go heavy africa with ENGLAND, I do well.

[newpaintbrush]

“So I don’t get it NPB  huh - what’s your approach - east or west with the Med. Fleet?”

Depends on how aggressive Russia tried to be and what degree of success Russia had on its attacks.  How many German fighters am I left with?  Are there any openings in the Russian defense that I think I can exploit?  Even if I have an African bid, what I do with the Med fleet depends on the Russian turn.

–

“Everytime I go heavy Africa with America I loose.  Well, I one once, but that’s because my opponent was incompetant, not because the strategy was good.”

I think of Africa as a responsive move.  The question is, what other openings are there in the German defense?  If German-held Africa is vulnerable, THEN Africa should be attacked.  But if Germany has devoted a lot of air and naval resources to keeping Africa, it will probably be better to attack Norway/Karelia/Eastern Europe instead, just leaving one or two transports to harass Africa.

It’s rare for me to actually march infantry through Africa right up through Persia.  But I have done it.  There are times when it is very good, there are times when it is very bad.  If the Allies can combine retaking Africa with a threat to Southern and Western Europe, it is probably good.  If the Allies cannot get past German’s Mediterranean navy, trying to drop tons of units in Africa is probably bad.

I think it REALLY depends on the situation.

[frood]

Well here’s the status of my current game where I was out of Africa (as Axis) after G2. I added up all the land and air units that have tactical value - basically I just excluded any units sitting where they will not be able to get into combat within 2 or 3 rounds. Basically that means units in WUSA, WCan, pacific islands and Australia.

At the end of J4, the Allies have 69 such land/air units worth a total of 296 IPCs. The Axis have 104 units worth $479.

Note that this excludes navies, if that were factored in the totals might be closer. But as the Axis, the more IPCs that are floating in the water the better.

The difference is 35 units worth 183 IPCs, despite the Allies having Africa and altogether higher production every round.

This gap is explained by two things:

1. The Allies have to spend more IPCs in the water, especially at the beginning of the game. This is the time when the Axis can establish military superiority on the ground.
2. The Allies have suffered significantly more in battle losses than the Axis, more than off-setting superior production.

#1 is basic to the game and cannot be avoided. #2 Has occurred partly because of bad dice, but also because I have been playing very precisely since my disastrous G1 turn. Basically, I avoid any attacks that have a significant chance of a bad result for me, and am trying to position my units so as to deny the Allies the ability to attack me in situations where battle losses will be heavier on my side. The dice have helped though.

IMO battle losses are much more important than IPC production. Screw Africa. Play a tight game where it counts (Europe and Asia), and don’t lose units and keep building more.

[Jennifer]

It’s not that, it’s that England cannot take out Germany.  America can, but is out of position if they’re concentrated in Africa.

Concentrate America in England/North Asia.  England in Africa. (Since Germany’s probably limited to 2 ground units a round for reinforcements and England should be able to put 5-7 a round in, that’s a winning proposition for England.)

[DarthMaximus]

#1 is the biggest reason.  Much of UK1-2 and US1-3 has to spent on navy, and as you point out there is no way around that.

It also takes the US at least 3 turns to just set up their shuck-shuck to get troops to Europe, which means you don’t have to worry about the US in significant numbers until about rd 4 (at the earliest) or rd 5.

The problem is once the US is set up they, with the Brits, can land anywhere from 14-16 units in a number of Germany territories.  That number can increase up to about 20-24 if the Allies can afford to go to WE.

Now, battle losses are important, but it terms of sacrificing economics, position is vital, and you are dead on with a “center of the board” focus.

Although, one final thing I would consider is supply lines.
In terms of our game I think much was sacrificed by the Axis in order to “blitz” to Moscow.  Now you really had no choice, due to the the G1 turn in Afr but assuming Russia holds out for another turn or two, I think the Axis are going to be in real trouble.  Not that Ger or Japan will fall soon, just that the opportunity to take Mos will close.

Well, at least I’m hoping it will close.  :-D

[frood]

Yeah, I can hear a big sucking sound between Germany and Caucasus. I think I can hold Caucasus especially with the IC and Japan nearby, but my ability to send reinforcements is severely hampered by the need to protect against landings in WE and Ger.

On the bright side, Japan is now poised to restore Germany’s Africa income and add some to her own.

I feel pretty stupid - prior to R6 it seemed inevitable to me that Mos would fall in G7 or J7. My Japan builds were also oriented toward a quick rush to Moscow and thus not many Inf are on the way.

Even if I take Moscow the Allies can probably re-take. We’ll see…

I’ll have to shift strategy swiftly I think.

[DarthMaximus]

This is typically what I do with Russia.  Stategic retreat to Mos, build up some tanks, let the US and UK get going, then hit Japan hard as they get to Mos.  Ideally, I would start to turn everything Russia has (or most of it)against Japan, while the US and UK continue to just box Germany in and slowly squeeze them.

Unfortunately for me, I made some questionable moves and a couple setbacks forced the fall back out of Wrus and Cauc and prevent Russia from going to crazy against Japan.  It really is inviting to see Asia pretty bare behind the initial thrust.

But positives are Russia remains in okay shape and the US and UK are basically fully operational and can still aid Moscow, while Germany has more area to protect.

We both have some goods and bads going for us.  :-D

[frood]

Well if I’ve learned one thing it is not to put all my eggs into one basket - eg. build as if I will take Mos. on G7 and if that fails have nothing else left behind it. That’s crazy. But for maximum punch it’s nice to have everything arrive at once. There must be a compromise.

This game has been sucking way too much of my time. I have to slow down, maybe every other day a move. Oh so painful to see my delusion of swift and crushing victory evaporating into mist…

[DarthMaximus]

I’m going to try and sneak in the UK move before the Bears game tonight, but feel free to slow up the pace.  Chances are I won’t be able to make a move tomorrow night anyway, so my next move (after tonight) would be Wed at the earliest.

Based on my classic experience, I find it very hard to really blitz to Mos if the Allies stay focus and don’t panic.

Now you had certain issues (bad G1 in Afr), but typically, I’ll go all inf (with trns/IC) on J1-3, then start to sprinkle in a few tanks come rd 3-5 as I get Japan really rolling.

I’m an infantry person, too many years of Classic.  :-D

[frood]

It’s nice though to have Japan in Novo and Anglo E on J6… But a few more Inf would have been good.

[Jennifer]

Well, that all depends. :)  8 Armor on G1, 8 Armor on G2 and you’ll be rolling through Russians like a searing hot knife through butter.  Although, the Brits and the Americans will be landing in France and wondering where all the Germans are.

[newpaintbrush]

@Jennifer:

Well, that all depends. :)  8 Armor on G1, 8 Armor on G2 and you’ll be rolling through Russians like a searing hot knife through butter.  Although, the Brits and the Americans will be landing in France and wondering where all the Germans are.

Of course, it isn’t QUITE so simple, but I believe that 8 tanks on G1 and G2 peters out against Moscow.  The Allies just have too much power too quickly, with UK attack on Baltic German fleet on UK1 plus 3 fighter build, followed by Allied transports to the German coast, followed by bleeding off of German strength through the Norway/Archangel/Eastern Europe route.

If the Germans continue to produce tanks, they cannot defend against the Allied attack.  If the Germans switch to infantry, the attack against Moscow peters out.  If the Germans split their income between infantry and tanks, then the German attack on Moscow is at reduced strength while the Allied attack on German territory still overpowers the German defense.

[frood]

I’ve been building primarily Inf with 1 or 2 tanks each round on avg. Rushing headlong for Mos got me solidly into Caucasus but Mos is too fortified to crack, and US/UK are starting to land serious units in Norway / Karelia / E. Europe so Germany will have to concentrate on the homefront.

Fortunately the IC in Caucasus (and Jap ICs in India and FIC) mean the supply line is less vital. Also, Japan just recaptured 8 IPCs of land in Africa for the Axis.

I think a rush for Moscow is a risky strategy no matter what, but esp. without extra income from Africa. If you can get Caucasus though and Japan is already nearby that’s decent.