@Stough just remember when playing tripleA that ‘1 more turn’ is never 1 more turn…
Japan is too strong?
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Those planes cannot be on carriers and fight in china and be on japan at the same turn.
Those 13 land units are needed on your transports to take islands remember. So you wont have that much in china.
You keep telling you can counter anything because you got a lot of units but those units cannot be used everywhere at the same time. The whole point of the allies isnt to attack you where you are strongest but to attack you where you are weakest. If the russian 18 inf deside to take machuria while your fleet is off java and the US fleet parks itself off japan and takes korea india can pretty much go turtle up for 1 round the next round your fleet wont be off java anymore and china will have units in the north for a change.India in this scenario can still build mechs and invade into china with the help of their airforce and at the same time defend india. And if your fleet is off Java what is there to prevent me from moving the US fleet next to japan and take korea? No your fleet cannot do it and your 21 planes will be only 12 by this time as there will be 6 on your carriers and chances are you lost 3 somewhere.
Thank you Shadow for expressing my exact sentiments when this discussion pops up. All of the arguments I’ve made for the Allies not being completely outclassed in this game come back to one fundamental principle: the Axis cannot do everything at once. As the Allies, your job is not easy, but it’s simple: make the Axis do too much. Japan has a deadly airforce, but it can’t be in five or six places at the same time.
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The Axis (specifically Japan) might not be able to do everything at once, but they are able to do at least 1, usually multiple things very well. If multiple Allied powers put stacks in range of the Japanese air force on the account that Japan can’t hit them all, Japan will just hit the most valuable/troublesome one (usually US navy if you advance to Carolines too early), come out positive and then swing around to the other stacks after a couple turn delay, leaving the Allies crippled in some place for minor gains elsewhere.
It’s also the reason its worth it to airblast the Chinese Rd2 in Szechwan if they stack there; yeah you lose 4 planes, but now you don’t even have to worry about the Chinese giving you one of these “split-decisions” later. -
“give the opponent so many good targets that he can’t hit them all” is not a winning strategy IMHO
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Reading all of this I stil conclude that Japan is too strong.
Arguments against that are not convincing to me:
- be creative as allies;
- Japan cannot do everything at once.
Let’s say Japan DOW in J3 and takes all the treasure islands/Philipines in one go with 7 transports (a strategy I sometimes use)…
Can anyone explain what to do (what to buy or where to place particular units) to make it difficult for Japan? As I said the Chinese army will be defeated in R4 by placing 13-14 landunits in Kweichow in J2. How can this be prevented for example? And how many allied ships will contest the Japanese fleet in let’s say R5? (In J4 Japan has at least 20 fleet units and perhaps 15 aircraft, without it’s buy in that round: 35 units). And where can it do the most harm? Does UK DOW Japan in UK2?
Thank you!
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Someone else earlier said that you don’t have to beet Japan on the Pac side, you just can’t lose.
What he meant by this is you defend Sidney and Hawaii at all costs (known as the 4th map because that’s the line where the maps join on the Pac side). Both Sidney and Hawaii are difficult to take, much less hold for a round with a US player with a pulse.
What you try to do is stabilize the situation as best you can, and delay the Orange Godzilla for as long as you can. I generally will buy Pac w/USA the first couple turns (prob a bit more as the game goes on). You don’t look to over power Japan necessarily, you’re looking more to get into a stand off or get him to buy carriers. When he buys carriers and you are in a stand off it ties up his air power (plus he isn’t buying as many land units). You try to snipe an island or trade dd blockers with all Pac powers etc….and if you get a chance to strike take it. China is going to fall pretty fast in most games unless Japan gets bad dice in the first Yunnan battle. As China you trade Yunnan a couple times if you can, then back up to the acme Chinese wall at the Russia boarder in a defending retreat (meaning you make small attacks if able to take out weakly defended Japanese territories that are in reach. When you get to the Russian boarder the Japanese have 2 options, hit the Chinese stack and lose the bulk of their ground units, or side step you to give the Russians more pressure.
While all this is going on UK India has either bulked up to make the Japanese hit on Calcutta hurt (costing all the Japanese ground units and some air), or have made preparations to evacuate it to Persia/Caucasus.You might even decide trade India by pulling out to counter attack (the last one sucks, but by time Japan is taking India there isn’t going to be more then 5 IPCs left to hand over the second time and it will delay Japan from building there for a round plus you get to kill some Japanese ground units.
Back to China, once your China stack gets to the Russian boarder much depends on how things are going on the Euro side. If UK has done its job and the RAF (6 to 10 ftrs) is sitting in Moscow, the Germans have been delayed from taking the Russian capital for 1-3 turns (maybe longer depending on what the Euro axis have there). Can the Russians send an AA gun and a couple inf and temporarily spare some mobile units/air for China (not to get killed, but to delay the Japanese from hitting the Chinese stack because the odds are like 20% for them to do so) There also should be UK mobile units in the picture coming up through Russia and could divert into China’s back door as well. It is in Russians best interest to help defend China, but you need to have that planned out. Is it one of the retreating Siberian AA guns, or do you send one from Moscow and the Siberians will be replacing it?
The allies need to tie both maps together and use all the resources at there disposal. Unlike the axis, the allies need a cooperative effort to have a chance.
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Thank you Bill that was exactly the kind of advice I was looking for!
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The Axis (specifically Japan) might not be able to do everything at once, but they are able to do at least 1, usually multiple things very well. If multiple Allied powers put stacks in range of the Japanese air force on the account that Japan can’t hit them all, Japan will just hit the most valuable/troublesome one (usually US navy if you advance to Carolines too early), come out positive and then swing around to the other stacks after a couple turn delay, leaving the Allies crippled in some place for minor gains elsewhere.
It’s also the reason its worth it to airblast the Chinese Rd2 in Szechwan if they stack there; yeah you lose 4 planes, but now you don’t even have to worry about the Chinese giving you one of these “split-decisions” later.I still think Szechwan can be defended well enough that, as the Allies, I’d welcome Japan to waste air on it, but otherwise I don’t disagree with most of this. Japan can certainly do a few things at a time and be very effective about it, and the Axis will absolutely win the game if Japan plays well and the Allies don’t coordinate.
What I’m disputing in this thread is the prevailing argument that every single Allied move in the Pacific can be countered with “Well, I’d just take my planes there.”
We’ve had some spirited discussions in our messages to each other. All respect, I’m still perplexed by some of your statements. If you JDOW3 you’re telling me you’re going to take and hold all the DEI, still have enough ground units eliminate China the next round and hold off any successful counter attack from Allied ships?
Let me ask: in the JDOW3 scenario you gave, where is your fleet positioned at the end of J2/start of J3? Paint the picture for me; Japan just collected it’s money at the end of its second turn. Where is your fleet, where are your planes and what is on the ground in China? Let’s assume Russia has the 18 inf and 2 AA guns in Amur, Japan took back Yunan, China has enough to take it on its turn, but turn 3 Japan will take and hold it, Anzac has Java and Sumatra, just a couple of guys on each.
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At the end of J2 my main fleet is at the Carolines, with 2 transports. I buy 2 transports to take Philipines and Kwantung. And 2 transports are in SZ 36 or even 37 (depending on allied moves of course). 1 transport is in SZ 20. Next turn the take most of the islands…
Of course I could relocate my fleet according to allied movement. Where would your fleet be?
And 13 landunits are in Kweichow. How are you gonna counter those with China?
About the Japanese air power argument: I know they only can attack once per turn, but JAPAN decides were and when they attack, NOT the allies. That is the main issue here: Japan holds all or at least most strings. So you cannot say the allies are going to do this or that: JAPAN decides if they let the allies do this or that. JAPAN makes the choices, and I think they can both take China and hold the treasure islands. If they are lucky in R4, but by R5 they should have both in their pockets…
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Thanks Tolstoj. Alright, let’s look at the Allied options and ask some questions
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First, I’m going to steal a question from ShadowHAwk: what do you have in SZ 36/37 to protect those transports? You need enough there to stop a UK/Anzac 1-2 punch. SZ37 especially would require a lot of protection, as, in this scenario, India could hit it with a BB, DD (I’m assuming the C went over to Africa) and 3 planes, followed by AZ hitting it with a DD, C and 3 fighters
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So let’s go with your fleet at Caroline and you have transports in SZ36 with some escorts. Right off the bat I know that as India (or Anzac) and I’m doing the following non-combat move: DD in SZ 37, preventing Japan from taking Sumatra on J3, assuring that Japan can’t get the DEI in round 3. Japan can target the rest of the islands J4, J5 like you said, but in between you’re gonna have Anzac and US hitting those islands, trying to pick off sections of the Japanese navy, etc.
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As far as China goes, take back Yunan and non-combat as follows: if Japanese planes are in Kwangsi, retreat to Shensi, where the planes could not reach (save for the str bombers). China would be looking at roughly 12 inf and a fighter (not counting what Russia may come in to help with) and Japan’s counter attack would mostly be 1’s. If Japan has their planes in a spot that can reach Shensi, head back to Sikang and eventually north. Japan can absolutely drive China back, no doubt. But China can hang around and be a pest
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Another China idea: If Russia can walk into Manchuria on R3, or take it with ease, China could save its income for a turn (in my games China usually makes 15 turn 1 and 12 turn 2) and on C3 purchase 9 inf and place them in Manchuria. What a pain it would be for Japan to kick that force out of the area
You’re right about the Japanese air force being able to dictate where it goes. The argument is simply that it cannot be everywhere at once, meaning the Allies can make progress on some fronts. Will it be enough? Maybe, maybe not.
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Good morning gents,
I generally agree that the G40 game balance favors the axis. This is not based on their advantage in pieces, or even economy–it is based on their initiative and their “white player” first mover advantage. There are no allied strategies that can be pre-supposed to be successful until you see how the game plays out. And, as you do gain this information, the Axis are better able to adapt and take advantage of this than the Allies are.
I do have several suggestions that make the Allies somewhat harder to beat in the Pacific.
1) Move the Chinese holdout to Kansu, not Sikang or Szechwan (“Chicom”). Retaking Yunnan is tempting, but if Japan already has their MIC down, it is probably better to draw them Northwest than South. If Japan intends to attack Russia, being up north is not a problem for them, but if they have to chase you that direction, it puts them out of position to attack UK Pacific. If Japan does not have a plan to strike Russia, it will be fairly obvious (abandons Manchuria), and it would then argue for keeping all 18 infantry there to pin down any Japanese troops (and block a retake of Korea, if that happens).
2) Russia will often have to move their pieces West, but if they don’t, and Japan doesn’t build its MIC in the north, then it cannot possibly defend against Russia, China, UKPac, ANZAC and US.
3) The primary US goal is to pressurize SZ6 and take Korea, going south puts you way out of position. Building a Naval Base on Wake or Midway makes it impossible to screen you out from SZ 6. Even if you lose the battle, you can reduce the threat, expend his kamikazes and follow up. If his fleet goes south, you can screen it by blocking SZ 21-23and “break him in two” by preventing his separate fleets from all converging back on you.
4) on J3-J4, Japan will try to make threshold income by taking the spice islands, and this is what will cost them a bunch of their ships. Fighters on Australia, malasia and NGuinea and US carriers can attack detached fleets.
5) After Taranto, land your planes on Malta, not Syria. This pulls Italy west instead of East just like Chicom pulls them north not south. If Italy can cross the oil states, UK Pac is finished.
6) if Japan threatens UK Pac directly, buy only infantry and camp within one space of your capital. Their goal should be to take over Ceylon and use it as a landing pad. Screen SZ 37. But if they don’t, packs of UK mechs and tanks can ward any Japanese stack within range. You will likely only get to make a single attack to retake Siam, Malasia, Yunnan etc…Make it count.
7) Declare war with UK2-UK3 if this is the only way you can gain your bonuses on a certain turn. The penalty in the Pac game is that the US loses its bonus, but there is no bonus in the Global setup.
8) you cannot directly bomb Japan into submission or retake it with force. You have to smash its income by destroying its ability to move in and out of SZ6.Japan can do everything, and can smash any stack, but they have to telegraph that intention at least one turn ahead. They can take all the territory they like, the only reply is to trim them back slightly.
Many of the conversations here try to focus on the exact detail of where certain ships and captures will occur on turns 3-6, and how many of those moves can be accomplished simultaneously. This isn’t very productive, as it tends to exaggerate how thinly Japan can practically be spread, and implies a false sense of certainty about what they will do. They do have a ridiculous amount of planes–and it actually is quite a good idea to use the Japan Dark Skies strat to kill every Chinese piece even with sacrifices. You will not be able to focus every US dollar on the Pacific, but you can get pretty close. Beating either axis player in detail is uncertain, cannot be accomplished by naked gambits or stratagems, and requires patience.
However, I have never seen a scenario where (for example) all the UK air and all the Siberian forces converge on the defense of Moscow. Everyone says that this is possible and desirable, but it never happens, and Russia falls. I am not that certain that G40 is all that unbalanced, assuming that the Allies take extreme measures to prevent endgame. It is simply an unplayably long game (More than 10 turns, tending to 14-16, we did 8 in 12 hours…) that people analyze on the basis of assumptions, the conduct of the early game, and their personal observations and biases.
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Hi there,
Thanks for these challenging questions, I hope I can provide a solid answer to them all:
1. The transports in SZ 37/36 will be protected according to the strenght of UK presence. If UK does attack I don’t have to worry about the US in US3. My opponents usually combine the allied fleet, but if you don’t I don’t need much ships at the Carolines either. ANZAC is not within range, or else they are destroyed. ANZAC doesn’t know when I attack you see, and I can always change my mind. If I can destroy the entire ANZAC-navy in J2, I might just do that instead.
In my calculations the US can only have about 25 pieces in US4 to attack SZ6. Japan has 19 Air units alone as you know, and 20 fleet units (when I buy 1 carrier, 2 destroyers and 4 submarines). So Japan has about 14 units to defend against ANZAC/UK. Please correct me if I am wrong.
2. Okay I destroy some of your ships in J3 and take the rest of the treasure islands in J4. Sometimes I put infantry from Siam inside my transports in J2, to ship them away in J3 (this way it is harder to block).
3. I think you miscalculate. Fighters can reach Shensi and land in Kweichow. So if you move to Shensi the Chinese army will be destroyed in J3. I think the Chinese forces should move to Sikang, that way they live another round. But actually I sometimes withdraw to Shensi in C1, because in C3 I can reach Kansu, wich can more easily be defended by the Russians.
And my fighters are in Ahnwe if the US is treatening SZ 6 actually. From there they can also reach every territory in China.
4. How the hell are the Russians walking into Manchuria with 18 infantry (in J3)??? I usually declare war on them at once. If all 18 infantry (or less) are in Amur I destroy them in J1. So usually I trade Amur with Russia a couple of times (after they retreated to Buryatia) before they are out of infantry (in our games the Russians recieve an extra bomber to do that).
5. When you talk about attacking Yunnan (above Burma) with UK units. Which round are you referring to? Again, attacking in UK2 means I don’t have to worry about the US in J3 at all!
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Brief reply since I’m leaving work shortly (clearly I’ve been working hard today)
-I did miscalculate Shensi. This is what happens when you try to post while on a conference call. So Sinkang would be the right move on C2 (after taking back Yunan with as few units as possible)
-You can probably take the islands J4, no doubt. But can you hold them all, every turn? Can you take them back every turn? Maybe, but you’re also doing it at the cost of ships and ground units. All I’m trying to say about the DEI is that holding them is more difficult than acquiring them in the first place
-Re: Russian infantry, it’s simple: turn one all Siberian troops move to Buryatia. R2 they all move to Amur, R3 they all move to Manchuria. As Japan, are you willing to commit the resources needed to attack them in Amur on J2? Again, you can do this, but you’re going to lose a good chunk in the process and set yourself back in other areas.
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I just observed a game where on J3 Japan had 15 different 100% combats, only 2 of which could be countered by Allies on the next turn (neither one important, and neither counter sustainable), while creating no positional weakness.
It was a very on-point demonstration of the power in the Japan G40 setup. Allies didn’t make any mistakes that I could see, and there was no particular brilliance involved it was just what was there for Japan to do.
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I haven’t tested this, but what if while you were setting up the game, you put 1 extra Chinese infantry on all the provinces they control, and then don’t do any other setup changes or bid?
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Does anyone else just move the infantry in Korea over to Manhcuria and just… keep all the starting Manchurian infantry there? It’s what I normally do when the Russians stack Amur. 10 infantry and an AA gun is bad odds for the 18 Russian infantry up there. Yes, it leaves Korea open, but I’m generally okay with that because they can’t go anywhere else from there. Stacking Korea allows the Russian infantry to go all the way down the coast and become a real nuisance, so I usually just… write off the 10 infantry in Manchuria as insurance against the Soviets.
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I do the same. If the Russians stack all their infantry there, I just leave the 10 inf and AA gun in Manchuria. If they do attack Korea, then I’m fine with it because then I can expand into Russian territory without activating the Mongolians. It only really gets annoying when the USA takes Korea and then the Russians reinforce with all their guys.
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Good morning gents,
I generally agree that the G40 game balance favors the axis. This is not based on their advantage in pieces, or even economy–it is based on their initiative and their “white player” first mover advantage. There are no allied strategies that can be pre-supposed to be successful until you see how the game plays out. And, as you do gain this information, the Axis are better able to adapt and take advantage of this than the Allies are.
I do have several suggestions that make the Allies somewhat harder to beat in the Pacific.
1) Move the Chinese holdout to Kansu, not Sikang or Szechwan (“Chicom”). Retaking Yunnan is tempting, but if Japan already has their MIC down, it is probably better to draw them Northwest than South. If Japan intends to attack Russia, being up north is not a problem for them, but if they have to chase you that direction, it puts them out of position to attack UK Pacific. If Japan does not have a plan to strike Russia, it will be fairly obvious (abandons Manchuria), and it would then argue for keeping all 18 infantry there to pin down any Japanese troops (and block a retake of Korea, if that happens).
2) Russia will often have to move their pieces West, but if they don’t, and Japan doesn’t build its MIC in the north, then it cannot possibly defend against Russia, China, UKPac, ANZAC and US.
3) The primary US goal is to pressurize SZ6 and take Korea, going south puts you way out of position. Building a Naval Base on Wake or Midway makes it impossible to screen you out from SZ 6. Even if you lose the battle, you can reduce the threat, expend his kamikazes and follow up. If his fleet goes south, you can screen it by blocking SZ 21-23and “break him in two” by preventing his separate fleets from all converging back on you.
4) on J3-J4, Japan will try to make threshold income by taking the spice islands, and this is what will cost them a bunch of their ships. Fighters on Australia, malasia and NGuinea and US carriers can attack detached fleets.
5) After Taranto, land your planes on Malta, not Syria. This pulls Italy west instead of East just like Chicom pulls them north not south. If Italy can cross the oil states, UK Pac is finished.
6) if Japan threatens UK Pac directly, buy only infantry and camp within one space of your capital. Their goal should be to take over Ceylon and use it as a landing pad. Screen SZ 37. But if they don’t, packs of UK mechs and tanks can ward any Japanese stack within range. You will likely only get to make a single attack to retake Siam, Malasia, Yunnan etc…Make it count.
7) Declare war with UK2-UK3 if this is the only way you can gain your bonuses on a certain turn. The penalty in the Pac game is that the US loses its bonus, but there is no bonus in the Global setup.
8) you cannot directly bomb Japan into submission or retake it with force. You have to smash its income by destroying its ability to move in and out of SZ6.Japan can do everything, and can smash any stack, but they have to telegraph that intention at least one turn ahead. They can take all the territory they like, the only reply is to trim them back slightly.
Many of the conversations here try to focus on the exact detail of where certain ships and captures will occur on turns 3-6, and how many of those moves can be accomplished simultaneously. This isn’t very productive, as it tends to exaggerate how thinly Japan can practically be spread, and implies a false sense of certainty about what they will do. They do have a ridiculous amount of planes–and it actually is quite a good idea to use the Japan Dark Skies strat to kill every Chinese piece even with sacrifices. You will not be able to focus every US dollar on the Pacific, but you can get pretty close. Beating either axis player in detail is uncertain, cannot be accomplished by naked gambits or stratagems, and requires patience.
However, I have never seen a scenario where (for example) all the UK air and all the Siberian forces converge on the defense of Moscow. Everyone says that this is possible and desirable, but it never happens, and Russia falls. I am not that certain that G40 is all that unbalanced, assuming that the Allies take extreme measures to prevent endgame. It is simply an unplayably long game (More than 10 turns, tending to 14-16, we did 8 in 12 hours…) that people analyze on the basis of assumptions, the conduct of the early game, and their personal observations and biases.
First off, I want to give a shout out to taamvan. Well said, good sir.
Secondly:
Does anyone else just move the infantry in Korea over to Manhcuria and just… keep all the starting Manchurian infantry there? It’s what I normally do when the Russians stack Amur. 10 infantry and an AA gun is bad odds for the 18 Russian infantry up there. Yes, it leaves Korea open, but I’m generally okay with that because they can’t go anywhere else from there. Stacking Korea allows the Russian infantry to go all the way down the coast and become a real nuisance, so I usually just… write off the 10 infantry in Manchuria as insurance against the Soviets.
I do the same. If the Russians stack all their infantry there, I just leave the 10 inf and AA gun in Manchuria. If they do attack Korea, then I’m fine with it because then I can expand into Russian territory without activating the Mongolians. It only really gets annoying when the USA takes Korea and then the Russians reinforce with all their guys.
Bad odds for the Russians to attack? They’d have a 61% chance of success vs 12 infantry (or 90% in low luck), let alone 10 and a half. Stacking Manchuria with enough to simply hold the Soviets off is a viable plan, but it’s going to take more than that. If that’s all you have, the Russian player SHOULD attack you. If he doesn’t, that’s on him.
Like Nippon-koku mentioned, the Chinese would love to get the Manchurian money and spawn location. -
Bad odds for the Russians to attack? They’d have a 61% chance of success vs 12 infantry (or 90% in low luck), let alone 10 and a half. Stacking Manchuria with enough to simply hold the Soviets off is a viable plan, but it’s going to take more than that. If that’s all you have, the Russian player SHOULD attack you. If he doesn’t, that’s on him.
Like Nippon-koku mentioned, the Chinese would love to get the Manchurian money and spawn location.Exactly. Not sure if it’s because of the 1’s, but people seem to underestimate the Siberians. Ran the calc and the highest probability was Russia survives with 11 infantry. Non-combat those two AA guns and Japan has an issue (and that’s before China places units up there).
Again, not a bulletproof end-all be-all strategy to beat Japan. But another example of how you can slow Japan down, and how it would take more than a simple “Well I’d just do this and the problem would be solved” to slow down the Allies.
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The plan to threaten Manchuria in this way is a solid plan. Usually my opponent only has 12 infantry in Buryatia at the start of R2. That is nog enough. You need the 18 infantry. I will certainly try that next time.
But when I am playing Japan and I see 18 infantry threatening Amur, I keep most of my infantry in Manchuria and my planes in Jehol in J1. If they take it, Japan can attack with maybe 23 units plus landings. And they will do so immediately! That way both the Russians and the Chinese are defeated in one stroke, and Germany will have less trouble to take Moscow. Not only will Russia lose it’s 18 infantry, it will also lose all it’s IPC’s in the east…
China
When you stay in Szechwan in C2, you cannot go back to Kansu which is easier to defend by the Russians. So every infantry you invest in Szechwan will be lost in J4 in my opinion. That is why I retreat to Shensi in C1. That way I am in Kansu in C3 and the Russians (6 infantry) can help in R4. -
I believe China will always be better off trying to get Yunan back early on. We may just agree to disagree on that one. No worries there :-)
As for the 18 in Amur
Your Amur plan goes back to the question we’ve been going back and forth on: how much is too much to do for Japan? If you’re committing 23 ground units, and accompanying transports, to Amur on J2 you simply don’t have enough units in position to push back China + UK in Southern China and aggressively threaten the DEI. If, as China and India, I see Japan commit that much to the North then I’m thinking move everything China has into Yunan, then back it up with India. Now Yunan is protected and Japan has no serious DEI threat J3.
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