It seems to be a popular view that Japan is wasting its money if it buys a complex before it has maxed out the first one (i.e. is transporting 8 units/turn to the mainland). However, I am of the opinion that 2 tran 1 IC–this is assuming $1 bid to Japan–is the optimal J1 purchase for getting units to the mainland quickly. There was an old thread (sorry, I couldn’t find the link on my first search and I’m too lazy to look harder) that had some calculations to this effect, but for the short version, consider:
—If you build 3 tran on J1, you can put 8 units in Asia on your second turn. However, with 2 tran 1 IC you can get 9 units there: 6 from your three transports, and three more from your complex. With a 2 IC purchase it’s down to 8 again, one from your transport and 6 from your complexes. (I’m assuming throughout that the UK killed your transport in SZ 59 so that you only have one to start with.) So if you’re trying to get as many units to Asia on J2 as you can, 2 tran 1 IC is the way to go.
—4 tran on J1, using a bid of $2, is also a good way to start fast. However, in this case your capacity outstrips your income; it will be a couple rounds before you can actually get new units fast enough to keep your transports busy. The 2 tran 1 IC buy is better optimized at keeping your production/transport capacity matched up with the number of units you can afford to produce. In particular, a 4 tran J1 purchase enables you to put as many as 10 units into Asia on J2 if you clean out Philippines, East Indies, Okinawa, and Wake, but then you run out of island units and can only make up to 8 new ones in Japan. So you get a lot of inf on J2 but it’s more of an anomaly, where the 2 tran 1 IC buy gives you a smoother and more continuous startup.
—As far as location, I like FIC the best. Kwang is farther from Moscow than either Fic or Man, so if you’re trying to put pressure on the Russians quickly you want either Fic or Man. You can supply plenty of troops to the northern area from Japan itself, so the complex is needed more on the southern end. Plus it enables you to get to Africa, Caucasus, etc better.
—So far I’ve been assuming KGF. In KJF you should certainly be a bit more hesitant about getting factories up quickly. However, I’ve found that a FIC complex, which is always where I build on J1 if I build a factory at all, can be very helpful in KJF. Ideally when defending against an American fleet you want to defend as far out as possible, e.g. with a fleet in the Caroline or even Solomon islands. However, if you’re forced to fall back, FIC is a great fallback point. The key thing about it is that it borders all three of your valuable islands. If you get in trouble you can fall back to SZ 36 and build more ships there to join your retreating fleet. Often this will be enough to prevent the Americans from taking any of those expensive islands right away. If your only factory is in Japan you’re forced to keep your navy farther north to incorporate the new builds, and the Americans have an easier time getting to the southern islands.
JAPAN _ trannies vs. IC
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Which do you go for first?
IC - get them tanks onland immediately and head for the Russian Capital. Steamroll some IPC’s along the way.
Trannies - Great for defense of a spread out nation. Fodder. Ability to siege Africa if Germany is lackluster in this job. Unload those valuable troops from the islands.
Both have their value, but trying to do both usually amounts to a dwindling fleet for japan. You can’t fuel trannies and IC’s at the same time unless adding to the fleet is not important anymore.
Thoughts.
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Depends. Are the allies going KJF? Did I get 1 IPC on the bid? Do i own Borneo and New Guinea on Japan 1?
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I guess a lot has happened by J1.
When you say did I get 1 IPC on the bid, what do you mean?
I thought all bid related IPC have to be placed.
Learn me -
I buy 3 transports and 2 Inf J1 if I lost one the Brits, and 2 transports and 3 inf + 1 tank if I didn’t, for a total of 4 transports. I then use the transports to invade the mainland. When I’ve maxed out Japan’s production, I build the IC, usually in Manchuria, but I’ve been considering FIC.
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No, you may choose to spend bid IPC or you may keep part of that in cash form. (And in regards to a FIDA bid, you must keep 50% of the bid in cash form.)
With 1 extra IPC Japan will most likely buy 2 transports and 1 industrial complex getting the best of both worlds.
However, let’s say India, Sinkiang and Buryatia are all heavily stacked and England has taken Borneo and New Guinea, sinking my Submarine in the Solomons (maybe even with their own submarine surviving there.)
That’s a MUCH different picture. Any IC I place on the mainland will be easily conquered, in which case I may want 3 transports and some infantry for landings on the coast while I concentrate and build up a stronger force. Or maybe I;ll retreat to Kwangtung and put the IC there. I don’t know. As I said, there’s a lot of things that can happen in a normal game.
Maybe england lost 4 infantry attacking Borneo/New Guinea and I lost none and Russia has pulled out of the East and England has retreated from India. I might just start with 2 ICs instead of transports. Especially if I have the Kwangtung and Japanese transports.
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No you can save money for the next round if you want to, but I wouldn´t recommend to save huge amounts, because why buy units on turn1 when you can have them before?
What Jen means is that you give J 1IPC and buy 1IC and 2 Trn. J1. after this you have both types.
If you aren´t doing this I would recommend to buy some transports first and an IC afterwards, by the time you are marching towards Moscow and if the Allies are going after Germany.
Transports are more flexible and you can bring many units through the north or the central passage into Ussr or use them as cannon fodder in KJF. -
Makes sense. Trannies first, then IC’s. All depending though. Thanks all
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I have been automatically devioerting 1 IPC of the bid to Japan since I started playing revised with a bid.
And I always do 1 IC and 2 TRN buy on J1. The only question is WHERE I palce the IC (depends on my strat for Japan in that game whether it is in FIC, Kwang or Manch).
No matter what you buy, you are not going to land more than 2 units anywhere on J1 unless UK left that SZ59 TRN live. So, it comes down to what you want to land on J2.
With the IC and 2 TRN, you get 9 divisions to Asia on J2. You also take care of a very critical limitation for Japan… a build limit of 8 with only the Tokyo IC.
An all TRN buy leaves you scrambling to get units from the islands (most of which you can grab without delay on J2 with a 2 TRN buy) and leaves TRNs on 2 to 3 turn missions to grab 1 or 2 INF.
1 IC, 2 TRN simply gets more units into the action FASTER, and provides a more sustainable offense by pusing the build limitation back by about 40%
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Sometimes it also makes sense to place the IC in East Indies.
You can build 4 units can´t be attacked from land and you have an ideal base for an african assault. -
I’ll be honest…
I’d rather build on land. That extra unit needs to be a TRN just to get TWO units to the mainland, and that makes an island IC more costly.Hell, I wish I could move Japan’s IC to Manch in J1, build one in FIC or Kwang, and work from there, saving the cost of TRNs altogether!
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I would almost never build an industrial complex at East Indies. It gives you more speed and flexibility in any attack on India, but I think that infantry bolstered by tanks can serve just as well (allowing an attack focus to be changed from Yakut to China to India), while requiring less IPCs spent on ICs and transports.
If the Allies are attacking heavily, I can see that an IC at East Indies could serve the same role as the W. Europe IC. (But I don’t like the W. Europe IC either!) :-P
I’ve been playing with an IC build on J1 with a bid of 9 (8 to the Germans, 1 leftover to Japan), and I think that I am going to stop the IC builds in favor of massed transports, infantry, tanks, and fighters to fill out Japan’s IPC bill. You need two dedicated transports to empty the isolated islands, four more to transport constantly from Japan, plus spare fighters to fend off an Allied attack in later rounds; early game, that’s 5 transports to build (assume one dies first turn), so probably build of:
J1: 3 transports, 1 artillery, save 2 IPC
J2: Depending on situation, Japan may be at 32 IPC, buy 2 more transports, 2 artillery, 1 infantry, 1 tank (or thereabouts).
J3: Switch to infantry/tanks plus occasional fighter, depending on Allied strategy.If the Allies let me take India securely, I WILL build an IC there, spending the IPCs that I’d been saving towards future fighters, but I frankly feel that a French Indochina IC is not that effective (as you can put 8 units there every other turn with four transports from Japan).
If the Allies beef up in India, I’ll focus on producing infantry and tanks at Japan and save up some extra IPCs for fighters in later turns. Saving is usually a terrible idea, and I think that it may STILL be a terrible idea in this case. The THEORY is that Japan needs to mobilize ground troops as quickly as possible, and does not need fighters until the US starts to approach Japan and the 3-4 IPC islands, so Japan maximizes its pressure on Russia while maximizing defensive potential with a quick fighter (and probably sub) build. Whether it works in PRACTICE or not is something I’ll have to wait for my next couple of games to show.
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You just don;t need that many TRNs
5 would be ideal, but 4 is enough.
On J1, you only have 1, so you buy 2 (and your IC).
On J2, you need to start raiding in order to fill your TRNs (since you bought no land units). So you grab Oki, Wake, and the remainder of your Japan forces to send to Asia. You also add another TRN (bringing you to 4).
On J3, you empty Phillipines and Japan, and add teh final TRN.
On J4, the Phillipines TRN from J3 empties EI, the other 4 empty Japan.
Now you have 1 TRN that is free to go grab the isolated units in Borneo, New Guinea, Solomons, and Carolines, while still dropping 8 didivions from Japan, and the 3 from your mainland IC. That is 11 divisions per turn, and Japan has only had to buy 9 a turn of those thus far.
Ifnou want more troops to Asia, scrap the extra TRNs and buy another IC. Cheaper than 2 TRNs, and gets 3 divisions per round to Asia (2 TRNs can get you 4, but only once, then the far flung islands are empty and they have nothing left to grab, and you have 3 TRNs with nothing to do…
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I prefer 5 at least. 6 is even better cause now you have 4 at Japan and 2 shuffling around the Indian Ocean.
R1: IC/2 TRN
R2: Infantry/TRN (1)
R3: Infantry/TRN (1)
R4: Infantry/TRN (1)*note, infantry can be upgraded to artillery or armor if money allows.
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OK, here is a quick numeric review of the options…
On J1, all are pretty much equal… at most 2 units to Asia (assuming SZ59 was attacked).
Japan 2:
With 1 IC, 2 TRN purchased on J1, you can get an additional 9 divisions to Asia on J2 (1 existing TRN, 2 purchased, 3 units to be built at the new IC)
To do this, you will strip Japan, Oki, and Wake. You also buy 1 more TRN in J2With 4 TRN on J1, you can get an additional 10 units to Asia on J2… in theory since you have 5 TRN now. But where to get the units?
Japan has 4 units left after J1.
Oki and Wake have 1 each.
Phillipines has 2.
Nothing else in range for immediate landing.
So only 4 TRN full, one is sent sailing away for no gain this round.
Only EIGHT units to Asia (one less than with the IC).
You can buy AT MOST 8 units due to build limitsJapan 3:
With the original IC buy, you added a 4th TRN the previous round, and now you are landing 8 divisions from Japan, 3 more placed at your new IC for 11 total.With the 5 TRN buy, you move the 8 divisions you bought for Japan in J2, and you MAY land 2 units from the TRN sent scavenging the previous round (maybe not if it went to Solomons and New Guinea). 10 divisions total.
Each turn after J1, the IC in Asia gets one addiitional unit to Asia. And by the end of J4 or 5, the extra TRN is wasted, because there are no units left to scavenge.
Also, to buy 4 TRN on J1 requires a 2 IPC bid to asia, so less income for Germany is also in the mix.
And even if you build an IC on J2 or later, you are still down 1-2 units in Asia. May not sound like much, but in a hard fought game against a skilled opponent, a single INF in the right place at the right time (like an extra INF in the front wall of the Japan attack that you get with the IC), you are able to take territory stornger and faster, and do more damage to your opponent with less loses of your own forces. And extra INF to Asia by Japan early has a cumulative benefit over several turns.
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@ncscswitch:
You just don;t need that many TRNs
I disagree.
Additional transports let you pad the Japanese navy against US attack, and let you attack targets like Australia, New Zealand, Africa, and India with the infantry from the southeast Pacific islands. Additional transports also let you threaten a larger Alaska or West Canada attack.
I mentioned six transports, but I consider that the minimum; I actually hit seven transports in most games, and have played up to nine transports in a long game.
“May not sound like much, but in a hard fought game against a skilled opponent, a single INF in the right place at the right time (like an extra INF in the front wall of the Japan attack that you get with the IC), you are able to take territory stornger and faster, and do more damage to your opponent with less loses of your own forces. And extra INF to Asia by Japan early has a cumulative benefit over several turns.”
This is exactly why I advocated the use of Japanese infantry/tanks rather than infantry/artillery in that other thread - tanks have the mobility to hit the right place at the right time. Transports can also be used to give infantry greater effective range.
(edit) - fixed typo (/edit)
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The problem with 4 tran max is you have nothing to leap-frog troops with later. ICs are great, don’t get me wrong, but an IC on J1 is a luxury, not a necessity. You’re much better off getting that IC on J3 or J4 when you need rapid deployment to the fronts.
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Obviously a difference of opinion.
The key discrpancies…
1. The need for extra “padding” of the Japan fleet… only needed if the US comes into the Pacific (which will have Germany doing a Happy Dance anyway).
2. Grabbing Australia, etc. I USED to be an advocate of that. But if you have extra TRN, then they are better used near Africa not down in the South Pacific.
3. It appears that many of you do not fully appreciate the power of ART/INF combos being built early on to be your front line force, backed up with later ARM builds, and perhaps even alter FIGs/BOMs). Each ART built costs 1 IPC more than INF, but you increase from a 2 attack with 2 INF to a 4 attack with the combo (total of course, not each). That means that each ART/INF combo is a match for defending INF, instead of just INF that is HALF of defending INF. Then you add your ARM/FIG/BOM punch… INF defenders are a lot less impressive when the ATTACKING INF is also a 2… INF/ART combos are the same total attack value as an INF/ARM, but it is cheaper. And in the first 2-3 rounds, you don;t yet need SPEED as Japan… you will just outrun your cannon fodder if you try to go too fast… -
Aye aye, I agree.
But, as I mentioned before, you don’t NEED that IC on round 1. You can be even more effective being short a unit and having more mobility. Remember, you can always build it on R2 or R3, if you want.
Meanwhile, without the IC England’s bomber is drifting in the wind instead of set up for a free strafing run on your southern IC, America pretty much has to face an entire Japanese aggression force if they decide to go Pac Strat instead of something safer like hitting Germany and Japan is just as mobile and just as hard hitting as if they had the IC. Only now, they can set it up in a more beneficial location. (ie, if the allies hold the north strong, you can put it in the south. If the allies are annoying in the south, put it in the middle or the north.)
In this way you force the allies to play on your terms. Not you on theirs.
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I like to give Japan $2 of the bid so I can buy 4trn on J1. The existing trn gets sent south on J1 to either raid the southern islands for troops or attack Australia/NZ on J2/J3. I will usually build my 1st IC in FIC but no sooner than J2.
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I like that idea too. Though isn’t there something better you could do with 32 IPC? Maybe set up an insurance policy against an American Pac Strat with 3 Transports, 1 Submarine? Gives you a legup.