@barney:
Basically I never intercept. If Bombers were 0 and Fighters 1 then it would at least force the attacker to send more escorts, or maybe not force but encourage. IDK. I still like the idea of a scrambled fighter reducing a bombers dice roll by two on a 1:1 basis to encourage scrambling. Right now why do it unless you have the advantage?
@Gargantua:
Yeah, the bombers at 1 really sucks - they should be 0.
Unless I have some advantage in numbers, it seems like intercepting is only giving the attacker more opportunity to damage your force where it counts.
But it all depends on what’s going on in game… and if scrambling that fighter could mean allowing the Russians to place more units - maybe you do it. High risk game of Russian roulette.
@wittmann:
Afternoon Baron.
I would never intercept, if I had fewer planes than the attacker, unless he had no Fts in the battle and I could afford to lose (could replace) my losses.
As the aggressor, I would also ensure I had a Ft to lose, if the defender had Fts which could intercept and would like 2 or 3 more planes than him.
As a rule, I don’t intercept, as the attacker can usually accompany his Bombers, with the canon fodder Fighters.
The new rules make it a raw deal for the defender. I do not like the change from Anniversary and 42, which saw the 2 in defence become a measly 1 in 1940.
@knp7765:
I agree with you wittmann. I rarely use interceptors as I have found it to be a waste of fighters. Too often I see those attacking bombers get that lucky “1” and blasting my defending fighters out of the sky. In fact, I still remember one game where Germany sent in 4 bombers to SBR Moscow. Russia had 5 fighters so we said “Let’s intercept”. The Russian fighters got 1 bomber while Germany knocked out 3 Russian fighters! I can’t help but think those extra 4 rollers could have made a difference in the battle for Moscow a couple of rounds later.
OK, everyone. I have some really big statements on a truly better SBR, and not so different from the basics OOB game mechanics.
First a few principles about what can make a good incentive to make SBR or to intercept an SBR attack.
1- A massive number of Strategic Bombers with each an attacking factor @1 is a pretty big deterrent for any TT with fewer Fighter defending @1.
This create an historical aberration in which all air defense stay grounded and let the bombers do the destruction over IC, AB and NB.
2- This situation is created by the fact that intercepting bombers are a worse situation than being bombed up to the maximum damage allowance.
Loosing Fighters which can be useful on regular defense (@4) while achieving almost nothing to destroy incoming bombers is also a major deterrent.
3- For an optimized play, on statistical POV, a good player should ponder whether intercepting the bombers really lowering their odds of loosing IPCs over the other way of letting Bombers directly under IC’s AA gun fire. So, a player must calculate how many IPCs will be lost on average if he intercepts against how many direct bombing damage can be done against him.
4- To prevent the fear of massive attacking bombers (acting like fighters attacking enemy’s fighters) most of you people assumed that a Strategic bomber with an attack factor @0 is part of the whole solution. (I agree, so I make a lot of table to find the perfect balance in regard to the usual odds of G40 OOB SBR.) They should be defenseless in dogfight. But with more destructive power.
5- To see if a given SBR mechanics could work, it should also compare the bare SBR value of Bombers raiding without interference and the TUV lost if a given number of Fighter(s) intercept(s) the bomber. To get an incentive mechanics, the defending player must see a real interest to intercept on a mathematical POV.
Here is the basic OOB reference with a single bomber making an OOB G40 SBR without interference:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR run
In OOB situation, intercepting with a single Fighter gives lesser damage for the defender.
1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR run
And when an escort and an additional interceptor are part of the raid the maths say that it is almost similar to not intercept option (2.583 vs 2.445):
1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR run
So, on a 1:1 basis, the actual system is broken since their is no real advantage for the defender to risk his precious fighters against such attack.
On a 2:1 basis, it is clear that any defending Fighter should stay put at such unfavourable ratio (+.7 IPC more dangerous if intercepting):
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR
2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBR
Here is the first system which I believe can create a better incentive to SBR or intercept without too much turmoil.
Also, it is probably easy to implement such value on Triple A, for play-testing:
Strategic Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 0
Bombard IC or AB or NB damage: D6+3
Fighter in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Defend 1
Tactical Bomber in air-to-air combat SBR:
Attack 1
Bombard AB or NB damage: 1D6
IC’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber
Naval Base or Air Base’s AA gun: @1 against each Strategic Bomber or Tactical bomber
How can I be convincing? It is needed to compare a few situations between OOB and this new set of values.
First situation, risking a bomber? For the attacker, it is clearly better, the reward is basically near 1 IPC higher over OOB (+ 0.8 IPC):
3.417 IPCs/SBR against 2.583 IPCs/SBR.
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
Does it worth it to intercept? Of, course there is no risk against any number of bombers. Their attack factor is @0.
On a 1:1 ratio, the attacker can still have better odds (but less than OOB) and there is a chance he can loose the bomber. So intercepting is always better.
1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR
But, usually the attacker have more tactical options and can choose what will be the ratio he will commit into the SBR. And he can wait a 2:1 ratio by bringing in an escorting Fighter:
1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 7.084 - 3.667 = + 3.417 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
This show odds just a bit lower than OOB (a slightly better situation for defender) while the attacking escort provides the casualty buffer needed to make this case at similar odds as a no intercept situation. So, it is up to the defender to choose, both situations are similar: does he believe in his luck or not?
When it is a 1:1 ratio with 1 escort against 2 intercepting Fgs, this new SBR values are much more tempting for an interception (1.6 IPCs vs 2.442 IPCs) and letting the bomber directly attack IC it would rise to 3.417 IPCs/SBR , but still 1 attacking Fighter acting as a casualty fodder is pretty acceptable:
1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +7.775 - 5.333 = + 2.442 IPCs damage/SBR
Also, this show that escorting 1 bomber (1.6 IPCs/SBR) gives as much reward than attacking only with bombers (1.693 IPCs/SBR):
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR
Only the 2:1 ratio is better with bombers only:
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR
but now the defender will not fear to loose his single intercepting Fighter and will commit it to reduce the attackers odds:
2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBR
Now, are you convinced that this little twist (bomber A0, +3 damage) will give more dog-fighting situations?
There is another more challenging way to do SBR.
For instance, by always letting interceptor hit takes bomber casualty before any escorting Fighter, but I will explained it on another thread:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35883.msg1411129#msg1411129
One last word about the chart down below.
It can be used to get pretty good average calculation for more complex situations:
3 bombers and 1 Fgs vs 3 Fgs. This can be obtained with 1 bomber+1 Fg against 2 Fgs and 2 bombers against 1 Fgs:
1 Fighter A1 and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPCs damage/SBR
+
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR
- 16.863 - 10.999 = + 5.864 IPCs/SBR
Which means: be prepare to loose either a bomber or a Fighter (-11 IPCs) and too inflict around 17 IPCs of damage, probably due to bombing.
Hope this can be found useful somehow.
@Baron:
Summary: StB A0 Damage: 1D6**+3**, Fg A1_fs_D1
1 Strategic Bomber doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 5.417 - 2 = +3.417 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 4.514 - 3.667 = + 0.847 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR
1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 3.762 - 5.056 = - 1.294 IPC. damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR
1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 6.958 - 5.055 = + 1.903 IPC damage/SBR run
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 5.554 - 5.055 = + 0.499 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.094 - 5.333 = + 1.761 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 6.933 - 5.333 = + 1.600 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: +7.775 - 5.333 = + 2.442 IPCs damage/SBR
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 2 interceptors D1
Sum: + 9.027 - 7.334 = + 1.693 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR
1 Fighter A1 First Strike and 1 Strategic Bomber A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 7.084 - 3.388 = + 3.696 IPC damage/SBR
Fg A1_fs_D1 Bomber first: + 6.331 - 3.389 = + 2.942 IPC damage/SBR
StB A1 D6+3, Fg A1 D1 Bomber first: +7.570 - 3.667 = + 3.903 IPCs damage/StB
Fg A1 D1 regular: + 7.084 - 3.667 = + 3.417 IPC damage/SBR
OOB G40: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
2 Strategic Bombers A0 doing SBR against 1 interceptor D1
Sum: + 9.930 - 5.666 = + 4.264 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR
2 Strategic Bombers doing SBR against no interceptor
Sum: + 10.834 - 4 = +6.834 IPCs damage/SBR
OOB G40: +9.167 - 4 = +5.167 IPCs damage/SBR
To get an easy comparison point with OOB G40 SBR:
G1940 OOB SBR:
1 StB doing SBR without interceptor
Sum: +4.583 - 2 = +2.583 IPCs damage/SBR
1 StB A1 against 1 Fg D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: + 5.486 - 3.667 = + 1.819 IPC damage/SBR
1 StB A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1
Sum: + 4.85 - 5.056 = - 0.206 IPCs damage/SBR
1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +7.775 - 5.33 = + 2.445 IPCs damage/SBR
2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 2 intercepting Fgs D1 damage: 1D6+2
Sum: +10.973 - 7.334 = + 3.639 IPCs damage/SBR
1 StB & 1 Fg A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: + 7.639 - 3.667 = + 3.972 IPCs damage/SBR
2 StBs A1 doing SBR against 1 intercepting Fg D1
Sum: +11.459 - 5.666 = + 5.793 IPCs damage/SBR