Strategic Withdrawal for Germany

[AgentOrange]

OK, I don’t know if everyone feels this way, but I feel that Germany is kinda set up for failure in the first round.  Whenever I’m setting Germany up at the beginning of the game, I always think “Why even bother putting units in West Russia?  There’s almost a 99.9978% chance that it’ll get taken.”  West Russia is not the only example of this either.  The Germans are just lined up to get raped by the Russkies.

Historically, things seemed to be going alright for the Nazis.  They were making a mad dash for Moscow, and seemed to be making good enough progress.  But eventually they expanded too far, and the Russians ended up pushing them all the way back to Berlin, by using superior numbers, not to mention partisan harassment. (sabotage of comm lines, railroads, etc.)  So, realizing that they were being overwhelmed, the Germans tried to pull back, regroup and consolidate.

Which is why I brought up this topic:  Would it be a good or a bad idea to allow Germany a first-round withdrawal?  :?

[A Former User]

If your tired of placing german pieces in revised you should try playing the allies in the pacific scenario  :-P

I don’t think we should allow the germans to withdraw in the first round, if such a rule is placed russia will be doomed, they won’t be able to take a territory that germany can’t retake, with holding power in G1.
Yes WRU is “always” attacked in R1, but having a game starting in the middle of a war will always mean that there are some opening moves that simply must be made, besides there are lots of different tactical considerations or options to take in the first rounds. So I don’t think the game is missing something because of these typical openings.

-Daniel Malus

[AgentOrange]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but it sounds like you’re talking about Germany having the option to withdraw every time they’re attacked.  I’m not saying that - just that Germany seems so vulnerable, terribly vulnerable, at the beginning of the game, and I’m trying to relieve some of that tension.

[Guest]

Consolidate remaining forces after you do what damage you can with your defenders in West Russia and Belorussia or Ukraine.  Sure, those front line forces are toast, just like the US forces in China and at Pearl, just like the UK BB off Gibraltar and the DST off Egypt, or the UK forces in Egypt…

Would I like to have those West Russia troops able to retreat?  Sure, when I am playing Germany.  But as the Allies… HECK NO!  I want them DRT (dead right there). :mrgreen:

[jsp4563]

The attack on w. Russia is a givien.  When we set up our board we don’t even bother putting the German units there… it’s straight to the battle board for those poor lost souls!  :-D

[frimmel]

You would be fundamentally changing the set up of the game. Also all of those German forces in my limited experience can’t be attacked effectively at once. Two out of the first three games I played as Allies I didn’t hit West Russia hard enough and had all kinds of problems because of it. I played a game once where someone left that fleet at Pearl untouched. I did a dance. Same as the time the dice were nice and the China FTR lived thru J1.
I’m with ncscswitch, as Germany please please save them, as Allies I to want them DRT!

I would agree it is kinda of a pain in Pacific to set up all those Allied forces only to put them right back in their tray.

[Jennifer]

@Malus:

If your tired of placing german pieces in revised you should try playing the allies in the pacific scenario  :-P

I don’t think we should allow the germans to withdraw in the first round, if such a rule is placed russia will be doomed, they won’t be able to take a territory that germany can’t retake, with holding power in G1.
Yes WRU is “always” attacked in R1, but having a game starting in the middle of a war will always mean that there are some opening moves that simply must be made, besides there are lots of different tactical considerations or options to take in the first rounds. So I don’t think the game is missing something because of these typical openings.

-Daniel Malus

Why not make a new game using the same map but starting in 1938?

[Axis4life]

Sure the West Russia and usually either the Belorussia or Ukraine forces are dead too, but it is a war game and casualties are a part of it.  Also Germany starts with 16 IPC more (without bids) so anything that is destroyed can be repalced alot easier than on the Russian side.  I guess you could allow Germany to retreat but I think it goes against the design of the game.

[AgentOrange]

Y’know, you guys are right.  Whenever I’m Germany, one of the things I dread most is just setting up their pieces.  Maybe I’m not that coordinated, but fairly often I’ll drop a piece or knock one off of it’s chipstack, and if that happens in Europe before the beginning of the game, it spells certain DOOM.

[Tom Saywer]

Germany does seem rather weak in the begining. It seems he just bides his time, builds a stack and waits for the Japanese to bail him out. THat’s been my experience.

[88 Millimeter]

Withdrawal from W Russia would allow Germany to become too big too quickly.

I always hope for the odds in W Russia- killing 3 Russian infantry on the first turn makes me feel good about the sacrifice my soldiers had to make…

[AgentOrange]

That’s true…

[AlliedFront]

Germany’s units in West Russia are vulnerable, but then again so is the American carrier in Pearl Harbor. There are units that are vulnerable, but then again if no units were vulnerable for attack, what kind of game would it be? :)
  So i guess the point im trying to make is that i dont think the Germans should be allowed any addition advantages like withdrawls or anything like that, at least if this ability is allowed to them it should be allowed to everyone. I’ve always thought that a defensive retreat option would be cool, it would take a lot of tinkering i suppose, but cool none the less.
  anyway thanks for reading.

[Guest]

Personally, I think that you could allow a defensive withdraw INSTEAD of defensive fire.

Attacker fires.  Defender either fires or retreats to an adjacent friendly territory.  That would make it “punitive” enough to prevent folks from abusing retreats, since the retreating forces would NOT get to shoot back if they choose to witdraw.  Also, it should be an all or ntohing thing… can;t just pull back exposed ARM or FIGs, you eitehr stay, or flee.

Further dicussion along these lines, or similar options discussions on a defensive retreat/withdraw should be done in the House Rules forum.

[Guest]

@AgentOrange:

Which is why I brought up this topic:  Would it be a good or a bad idea to allow Germany a first-round withdrawal?  :?

Ive done it before…and sometimes it works very well.  My method of retreating and regrouping is to simpy advance all my inf forward, cause I feel that I shoud at least make the russians pay dearly for advancing.  I retreat my art and arm…making large arm stacks in Eastern Europe and making a large art stack in the Balkans.