Except early Red Navy build is a wasted buy. The only reason why I would do it is if Germany went all in on Sea Lion and it failed so your army is equal to theirs and even then the Kreigsmarine is never a serious threat so unless USSR red navy is going for Italy or he is going to send them against Japan, it was a stupid buy.
Japan's super economy -the end of the world?
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If Italy gets a foothold in africa at any point the game is over because Italy’s income can defend Europe really well while Germany focuses on the capital. Doing this gives you Africa back eventually. Capitals are just a priority.
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Agree to that.
I have seen Italy getting things going in Africa and/or ME and that is very ugly for the allies. Italy having an income of ~30+ IPCs for a prolonged time breaks the allies. If this lasts only a small number of turns however, the damage can be controlled.Preventing this from happening is another high priority for the allies.
It is a high risk gambit for Italy as well, as this means Italy needs to invest in getting more troops in Africa. Italy’s chances of failure in Africa/ME are quite high and everything the Italians send there cannot help defending Western Europe. Furthermore, Italy is going to need extra TRS and other ships as well so that’s another strike through the Italian build plans for defending Europe! -
Against a light bid of say sub 98 and anzac inf new guinea.
You have really good odds at getting egypt. Tobruk->alex. German air -> alex. Then bam you have a big attack. All you really need is egypt for a bit.
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Italy still doesn’t have enough attack power to take egypt if UK played it correctly though. Are you using German planes to hit Egypt or something? I use the German planes to help defend Alexandria as well, but it seems to me that Italy just doesn’t have enough to actually take it out on his own.
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Italy still doesn’t have enough attack power to take egypt if UK played it correctly though. Are you using German planes to hit Egypt or something? I use the German planes to help defend Alexandria as well, but it seems to me that Italy just doesn’t have enough to actually take it out on his own.
^This. Italy can go kamikaze against Egypt, loosing everything. Then quite a few UK land units + 6-7 aircraft are surviving in Egypt. Germany can attack this with its Luftwaffe but this will cost Germany dearly in aircraft (loosing 10 planes).
And be careful with too much German planes in Africa, as the UK will have a much easier time placing TRS @ Germany’s backdoor unhindered (SZ109).
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As Italy I’ve found myself being able to resist going for the throat in Egypt early. I’ve had opportunities, but I’ll lose a lot of units accomplishing it, and there’s no guarantee I’m holding it long.
In general I try to:
Bottle the UK in Cairo
Take Greece, S.France and Gib if possible
Clear the Med of Allied Ships
Send Armor to potentially can-open for Germany with my BomberOutside of that, I’m building INF and ART to repel Allied landings. I know Italy will not rule the world, and to extend too far in Africa means the Allies will probably try to cut your supply lines in the Med.
If I’m very successful with Italy, I may churn out a few SS to keep the Allies worried about a SS strike - but I’ve found its generally better to put 2 INF in S.France than to build an SS there.
The bane of my existence as Italy has always been Allied aircraft on Malta after the first round. It almost always shuts down any Italian movements into Africa - and by the time I’ve got the IPC to defend against 1 Ftr/Tac/Bomber from sinking my little fleet… I’ve realized I have very few ground units to defend against Allied landings in N.Africa or Europe.
It seems those naval purchases end up becoming wasted on Italy. Aircraft may help a bit, but realistically, continuously building ground troops seems to be my MO with Italy.
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How exactly is Italy not having enough?
2 inf 1 arty ethiopia to sudan round 1. tobruk to alex round 1.
Say you lose 1 or 2 inf to kill ethiopia. you only have 8 men left for egypt… maybe you got the malta inf and aa gun
that is 10. tobruk is 6, 1 transport left that is 8. Italy air matches your starting air in the area.
So unless you are bringing in the pacific units… Italy has a good attack.
I generally J1 dow so if you are bring pacific units over… it is a super easy J3 India.
I guess Russia can send air to India… still idk where you getting all these guys from if not a bid.
~Germany air losses would not be heavy at all. Italy just needs to do a 1 round attack retreat. Germany hits it and clears it out in a round. You can buy bombers on west germany if you are paranoid, they do help out against Russia, you only need to hold east poland to bomb the russians.
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This is why bids tend to be around the 12-14 range to get an extra inf or two in africa along with a sub in sz 98.
A light bid is really pushing it.
~No matter what Italy has 12 units attacking (4 air 2 transported 6 tobruk). 3 from ethiopia you got to send something to attack round 1 or round 2.
So I do not know how you have this super iron clad defense that always holds up when you only start with 10 ground units including anzac. It can get bumped to 12 with malta. Then your air is only 3 planes. But then you have to send something to ethiopia or sudan….
It is a pretty close fight without bids. Then germany can clean house after Italy, after that it pretty much goes to the axis.
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Like if the axis want the middle east they are going to get it. All Germany has to do is buy strait bombers round 2. Some Germany players like southern france, what they do is buy carrier transport 1 inf, armor from france comes down (their round 2 buy). rest of the buy is bombers.
Then you really cannot hold Egypt. This is more or less a G7 or G8 Russia attack. You just take command of the middle east and bomb out of the game.
This is a really good strategy in general. Because if you get pressure from the atlantic you can just bomb russia for 20 every time he buys units.
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Didn’t know we were talking without bids. Anyone crazy enough to take allies without a bid would would make for a really short game.
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@Cow:
No matter what Italy has 12 units attacking (4 air 2 transported 6 tobruk). 3 from ethiopia you got to send something to attack round 1 or round 2.
UK1:
Purchase 6 Inf, 1 Ftr - Place London.Combat:
CR SZ91 - SZ96
FTR Gib - SZ96
vs 1 DD, 1 TT
95% odds, 1.5 Units survive. 2/3 of the time the UK CR survives.CV, SS, DD, CR, 1 TAC SZ98 - SZ97
FTR Malta - SZ97
BMB London - SZ97 (Land Malta)
vs 1 BB, 1 CR potential for 2 FTR scramble, 3 if Germany sends FTR from Hungary.
Odds w/out German help: Scramble: 95%, 3.9 units survive. No scramble: 100%, 6.4 units survive
Odds with German help (scramble): 2.4 Units survive.
So worst case scenario for Italy is no scramble w/out German help. Leaves all but the SS still in SZ97. Best case scenario Germans help with a Ftr and UK ends up with either 1 Ftr/Tac or all 3 aircraft landing on Malta. (This still isn’t good).NCM:
TT SZ98 1 ART (Alex), 1 INF (Egypt) - SZ80 - Persia. UK has 3 INF, 1 Art on Persia
DD, CR SZ39 - SZ80
DD SZ71 - SZ80
ARM Alex - Sudan
ART, MECH Egypt - Sudan
INF Alex - Egypt
INF W.India - E.Persia (UK2 is picked up by TT from SZ80, enables CR bombard on Iraq)
2 INF S.Africa - RhodesiaSo now you have Cairo with 4 Inf on it. Two are UK, two are ANZAC.
Persia has been activated and can still return to Cairo with those units depending on what Italy does.
Sudan is a hard nut for Italy to crack with just 2 Inf and 1 Art. Italy can send her bomber there if she’s determined to try to get next to Cairo, but thats a 50-50 battle there. Maybe Italy triumphs with 1 Art remaining? That bomber has to land in Ethopia and get defended by the INF from Somalia. Btw that can still get hit by that TT sitting in SZ80 with 1 Inf, 1 Art. Personally, those units are trapped or have to march south to gain 1 IPC for a round or two.
Italy has a single TT at this point, meaning at best you’re seeing 1 Inf, 1 Arm show up on Alex on I1. And that is entirely dependent if the UK has ships remaining in SZ97 and SZ96. Benefit of the doubt you CAN get the units there.
So I1 comes and you stack up Alex with Tobruk units and reinforce with 1 INF, 1 ARM.
So Alex has 4 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH 2 ARM staring down 4 INF. Odds are in Italy’s favor, until you factor in a Ftr and Tac flying in from Malta, and Persia ferrying in 2 Inf and the UK units in Sudan stepping back to Cairo.All told Cairo holds after UK2:
7 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH, 1 ARM, 1 TAC, 1 FTR
vs 4 INF, 1 ART, 1 MECH, 2 ARM, 1 Bomber
2% odds for Italy to win that battle on I2.
On I3, perhaps you bought a Ftr on I1, which landed on Alex on I2. You also are now adding 1 Inf, 1 Art that started in Libya.
45% odds to win.And what does Italy have to show for all this? Egypt with a couple units left on it, and units coming in from South Africa, and a second ferry of units from Persia.
At best, you’ve played to a draw. Good for Germany, but this is round 3. Germany needs Cairo 3-4 rounds after this.
Point I’m making is there is no way you’re brining 10 Inf to Cairo by I3. Possibly I4 if UK turtles, at which time the UK has been buying a TT, Inf and Art every round, placing it in South Africa and shuttled three sets by the time you strike, plus the Persian units.
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Didn’t know we were talking without bids. Anyone crazy enough to take allies without a bid would would make for a really short game.
Don’t know. I wasn’t talking about bids. With bids you never know what a player will place where, so I prefer to talk bids excluded… But that’s just a personal preference.
+1 to what Spendo02 said. Very Good breakdown. I learned a thing or two from that ;-). Thanks! In addition to that:
(So without bids) 18 units total can reach Egypt with the air from Calcutta, 15 units without them. Malta ground units stay where they are, TRS will pick up 2INF from Persia. Any losses the UK sustains during UK1 (Taranto or whatever) may not be aircraft, have to be ships. With these numbers, UK will win with 11 units surviving. French move in, 12 units versus max 12 German air. And Italy has just lost everything to achieve this…If need be, UK can build an IC in Egypt UK2 as well. UK can reinforce Egypt with another 5 FTR from London UK3 and 2 FTR from SA. Egypt will then produce 3INF on top of that. Africa = One of the main reasons why UK should never scramble UK1 unless it can hurt Germany really badly (i.e. German attacks on SZ110&111 are underpowered).
Also a viable alternative, UK can pull out, attacking everything into Sudan UK2. From there (and SA) it will then have 18 attackers UK2, 23 UK3 and 25+ attackers UK4. German air can’t be there forever or Germany will be whacked in Russia. Everything Italy takes in the region will be very short term if Uk gives up Egypt like this. This is the kind of short term Italian Presence in Africa that the allies can handle. Meanwhile, the allies are building up in Gibraltar and will have a combined ~30 land units and ~8 aircraft ready to strike every coastal area including Rome and Berlin US4. Less 2 air and 4 land units US3. Given, not everywhere with the same power but still. Way beyond Italian power to defend that. Especially since they sent the few units they bought (FTR) into Africa.
On a sidenote:
Yes, I’d weaken Calcutta in favor of Africa if need be. UKP is dead anyway (the VC, not the army mind you) and loosing it is therefore by far not as critical as allowing Italy a free walk into Africa/ME. Still, with or without the Indian RAF, a J3 on Clacutta requires a very specific Japanese ‘all in’ that I do not particularly fear as allies as long as the UKP keeps its army around. Like I said, Calcutta is dead meat anyway and everything the allies do to prevent the fall of this VC will only help Japan (unless the USA is gearing up for that KJF strategy)… -
Ethiopia’s attack on Sudan, should score a hit.
I2 attack is fine. Nothing wrong with it, attack for one round. Then Germany attacks and has more than enough hits to clear it out in one round of combat.
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Also leaving egypt with only 4 units is really risky for you. If your cruiser is not alive on malta (dd hit on a 2) then 1 inf 1 armor 1 bomber can attack egypt.
That is 35% on egypt.
Some people take those odds, because the risk is pretty minimal, risk a transport that is going to die someday 1 inf 1 armor, the bomber can retreat, it could die that is possible.
Even the sudan battle can be worth one round of risky business.
~You cannot tell me you always hold Africa/middle east.
Plus Germany can bring around 17 air units to attack egypt. All Italy has to do is cut it down to about 8 units, retreat, and let germany got to town.
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Point is moot because most people G6 russia, sure you bring 10 or 12 fighters in to russia and Germany smokes that.
Round 1-3 all mech/armor round 4-5 mech/armor on novgorod rest air units. round 6 Germany attack, Russia dead. Italy starts with enough units to guard europe, plus germany can take back everything lost after Russia is dead.
You are not getting Germany or Italy. Everything else is a possibility. I have seen USA reclaim France when I did this and I lost west germany for a round. With 80+ ipcs I bought a major factory for greater southern germany infantry and armor on germany, next round 20 units. I won in the Pacific at this point, because after calcutta there is only one thing left for Japan to do, which is to just win.
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Just follow my playbook and you will rarely lose games.
Shoot, I even buy naval round 1, sub dd, carrier, because I am always like this game is the game I sea lion. Then I change my mind.
I still smoke Russia. Imagine if I just bought 1 sub all mech/armor. OMG I could deal with 20 allied fighters coming to Russia and G6 that.
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Russia only starts with 41 ground units and air.
Germany 12 air. Germany starts with 12 air and 48 units - yugoslavia hits and whatever air unit losses germany incurs that can make it to a G6 attack on Russia.
At the start of the game you short 19 units. Germany round 2 buy is ridiculous. Round 3 he matches you. round 4-5 he gets air.
So basically you have round 4 and 5 to get on equal footing with Germany. You started the game short 19 units, say you produce 10 units in round 4 and 5. Then the allies have to help you by matching germany’s round 4 - 5 air purchases (round 5 has 3 armor from ukraine). So the allies need to send about 13 fighters.
So now that you have the same number of units as germany…. it is too bad Germany is rolling tanks and has the same number of 4 rolls as the allies.
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Some people super min/max the G6 attack by buying some mech round 1. They buy 1 sub to stop the russia NO rest mech/armor or 4 mech 1 destroyer. This is super min max.
It is sad because you know it is coming, but getting 18 air units to Russia before round 6 is easier said than done. Getting Germany to buy units to defend Europe is easier said than done.
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Just trust me. The next time you play the axis just go balls out with Germany Round 2-3 mech/armor . 4-5 all air units.
After you kill Russia with 15 tanks left and 12 air units… then we can have a conservation about how useless going atlantic early is for the allies.
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If the allies bring in 10 planes it would look like this.
Germany playing perfectly and getting nice rolls would have 19 tanks, 21 mechs, 32 infantry, 11 arty, 5 fighters, 5 tacs, and 7-9 bombers depending on AA.
Russia would have roughly 75 infantry, 3 arty, 2 mech, 2 tank, 4 aa guns, 2 russian figs, 1 russian tac, 7 UK figs, 2 UK tacs, 1 UK bomber.
With 9 bombers battle calc puts you at 16 units left after battle…
I might even just wait another round if I were Germany and saw UK put all of her planes in there. Russia would only be making a couple units because of bombing and you are bringing at least 9 more to the battle that you build in Stalingrad, Novgorod, and Ukraine.
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The only way I could have artillery would be if I bought transports round 1. I do not do this usually. I need a sub to stop the Russia NO.
But yeah if you do 2 trans 1 carrier you can generally get a drop in. I just do not like it usually.
Still the end result the same. Germany does take Russia. You tested it out in a solo game, those numbers are about right, give or take depending on Russia player and Germany player. Still 80% odds Germany takes Russia even with 10 allied fighters coming.
You can get lots of air units into Russia, but do not act like Italy is doing nothing all game. Everything comes at a cost.
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@ Cow:
I perfectly know what you are talking about. I know that german drill in and out. The German breakdown from ROCMonster looks about right. If Germany never lost a land unit anywhere…On the Russian side I miss 12 units somehow. UK should have 13air if you add the STR, so ROC you need to add 3FTR and also 8 more ART and 1 INF for the allies in the calculator. These are the exact maximum numbers. Subtract 2 INF for 2 more ARM and it is 100% complete. Maybe you forgot to take into account Russia takes Iraq (and Ethiopia and Somaliland, but those won’t add to Russian production since they are added RU5 & RU6).
102 Axis units (not bought a single ship and lost nothing at all) @ 222Power versus 111 Allied units @ 244 Power. Allies win with 20 units.
Surely Germany will loose a couple of INF and, sadly enough, raiding Moscow will loose Russia also just a couple of INF. Calculate it. It is right. Dealing 10 damage will have Russia produce 7 units in stead of 10, dealing 20 damage will have Russia build 5units instead of 10.
But here is the deal: Bombing Russia, with 12FTR there cannot be done safely. Only turn 4 can this be done (IF no FTR are there yet), by Japan/Italy. As soon as Germany starts bombing it gets interesting: Germany will loose enough aircraft to keep the odds in favor of the allies. All this bombing is pretty high risk for the axis as they cannot afford to loose 1 too many bomber to AAA-fire (particularly Germany) as this will worsen the final odds during the assault. I just redid the calculations from long time ago: with a successful bombing campaign over Moscow, the allies still win with 7 units surviving (instead of the previous mentioned 20). But if the campaign is not so successfull, and the AAA-guns hit 1 or two bombers too many… That’s what I do in A&A: hope for the best, but plan for the worst.Even if Germany takes Moscow, the ‘win’ will be Pyrrhic style. Germany will loose too much units. So now Germany has to wait, GE7 or even GE8. Russia is still not dead, it can still produce and kill German STR that come in. On top of that, 23 Siberians + Mongolians are returning and are now in Moscow. One of the reasons those units must retreat. Allies must make painful choices at gamestart.
So in short, Moscow can stand through a GE6 all in and Germany will be VERY weak against the Western allies at this point. I have been there done that. Many times. Wallies will have permanently liberated Paris, West Germany, Northern Italy, Denmark, Holland and Norway and also bomb Berlin so no, Germany does not have the money anymore to spend on both theatres. Next city to fall is Rome.
Germany must make painful choices too. Be that to foolishly continue its all in against Moscow (loosing Berlin), or to finally start defending against the Wallies (Germany being the weaker side because their prologed focus on Moscow), relieving the pressure on Russia tremendously. -
Russia has 5 rounds of buy roughly 50 inf. You can have more units.
The Germany numbers seem light on tanks to me. It depends on if any skirmishes happen. Bombing runs. All that.
The german drill is strong. G7 is a more conservative approach because you get the finland/norway units in by that time another round of mech/armor. Allies can disrupt you a little, but it only means 1-2 less bombers to get infantry on Germany.
Do the G7 drill against a balanced buy from the allies. If the allies go Atlantic hard, you may as well go for the Pacific win. You get Calcutta round 4 100% every game, you just have to set up for it. Then it is just a matter of taking new south wales or Hawaii neither is hard to do.
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