Germany Navy, Again

[Guest]

@trihero:

Uhh the UK bomber could hit a nekkid transport in SZ14 then land in Caucasus….no need to land in Trans-jordan.

You’re right.  Missed that.  TY.

[Jule]

If you want to build a Transporter too, you almost need to place it in the Baltic along with the Carrier. In turn 2 you can combine your fleet just as usual and if you need to, just piss off into the Med. Now you should have three transporter to support africa. While you almost ensured that there’s no early allied landing in ALG (because you could sink an allied fleet in AZO in Ger2 with Medfleet + Air).

But is the third transport for Germany worth it? I don’t know.

[Zooey72]

I’m against the whole idea.  A German AC offers little in the way of a detterant against anything the allies are willing to do.  They can’t attack in to the baltic… great… it really is not that big of a deal.  The AC can not attack worth a damn, it offers no attack power… only defense and like I stated above it is defending a sqaure that the English/US really does not need.  The only good I can see from making the AC purchase is if you eventualy get 2 ACs (which is incredibly expensive).  Than when the UK fleet does not have you bottlenecked in the baltic have them come out and constantly get in the way of whatever it is he is trying to do.  Make him destroy your ACs on defense… and you might get some use out of them (however this also means you willl probably lose the 4 fighters on them).  In general, not a good plan IMO.  Esp if the US is going into the Atlantic in any meaningful way (and they almost always do).  If you want to deter the western powers buy up your airforce instead.  This gives you the mobility to attack the fleet where you want w/o leaving anything behind when you do.  Not to mention, your AF can also help against the Russians or in Africa if need be.

A tran in the med?  Bad idea, the 8 IPC for the transport is not what is going to kill you, it is the extra 8 IPC a turn (Inf and a tank)to keep the thing fed.  If you want to build your AC,  Southern is the place to do it.  Once it is bought, that is it (meaning it is not a constant drain on your economy).  The German Med fleet is very important to Germany.  An AC would ensure that a large allied task force would have to be bought just to sink that fleet.  The med is “your turf” and it is hard for the allies to sink the fleet w/o the carrier, with a carrier the allies will have their hands full.  If they don’t kill your fleet, that is fine too.  That is 2 units in Africa every turn unmolested.  If you absolutely must have more troops down there I suggest an IC once you take Egypt.  It costs more, but it is safe.  2 transports with only a battleship protecting them is too tempting a target for the allies, I know I would spend whatever it took to sink something so open.

For the most part I buy no fleet for the Germans.  I am careful with my med fleet, and don’t really care about my baltic fleet.  My threat to allied shipping comes from the $ I spend on my airforce.  My push into Africa can usualy get accomplished by just 2 units a turn going in.  If more units are needed I send some planes down there to tilt the odds in my favor.  Africa never becomes like the eastern front where 3 fighters won’t be a deciding factor.  In Africa 3 fighters is HUGE!

In my game, the German AF is what is the deciding factor most times.  If you get the extra IPC, get long range Aircraft…  IMO it is the best tech the germans can get if played right.

[Guest]

Zooey,

You missed the part where the AC in the Baltic, plus 2 FIGS landed on it in G1, sails to SZ7 in G2 to meet up with the Med fleet.

That gives Germany a fleet of:
2 Trannies
3 Subs
1 Destroyer
1 Battleship
1 Carrier
2 Fighters

On defense that is a 26 points of defense (4.33 enemy kills)
On offense that is 20 points of attack (3.33 enemy kills, with 1 of them a sneak attack)

How long dies the UK navy last against THAT fleet?  Or unguarded US trannies?

The point is that, for 16 IPC’s spent, you make the US and UK spend 60 IPC’s or so building up forces to SINK that fleet before they can land a single land unit in Europe to assist Russia.

[Zooey72]

How exactly are you going to get to SZ7?  Killing the UK battleship is off GB is fine, but than you leave 1/2 your fleet open to a UK attack by air (I would use both fighters and the bomber to ensure the destruction of that fleet, landing the fighters in GB). This also means that you are willing to lose at least one fighter than to take out my destroyer, or leave it in the med which will become a huge pain.  You will be forced to land African reinforcements in Algeria instead of Libya, delaying the conquest of Egypt until at least round 3.

G1 buy for UK would be an AC, destroyer, inf.  2 US fighters than land on the UK carrier for safety.  US buys 2 bombers and a fighter while positioning it’s fleet in SZ9.  Than the whole Atlantic turns into an allied turkey shoot.  If Germany attacks either fleet it will leave itself vulnerable to the other.

I will grant you that this is expensive for the allies to do, but in the end it is well worth it.  You have lost Africa w/o much of any fight.  You have spent $ in the Atlantic that could have gone elsewhere.  And a decent amount of the German AF has been destroyed in the sea battle (that is if there is one).

Of course, you could cut and run into the med when get to S7.  Which is not all together a bad move.  A strong Axis med fleet can be advantagous.

I am reconsidering the AC buy for the Baltic.  Not so much as a threat initialy, but to save the existing boats in the baltic.  They get picked off rather easily if left on their own.  A quick sprint to the med can save that fleet and give you the hitting power you described.

Attempting to link up in SZ7 on G2 I don’t think is a good idea.  The Baltic fleet is strong enough to make the rush on its own, and the med fleet has too many things to do in Africa.  If you don’t make a grab for the UK’s IPC, contesting the Atlantic almost becomes pointless.

Once the fleet is consolidated, than you can move it into the position you described earlier.  After the initial AC buy, just get 1 fighter a turn.  The combined threat of the med fleet and AF can be a great advantage for the Germans.

A lot of rambling, but in the end I can see the 1 AC buy a sound strategy if done carefuly.

[Zooey72]

Wanted to add, if you really want to keep your battleship and transport you could take GB instead of landing troops in Algeria on G1.  This will cripple you in Africa, but will give you the most force up front, like you want.

[Guest]

Zooey, the Med Fleet is safe from Allied air attacks at the end of G1 in SZ13, excpet for the bomber (which would be a suicide run)

The Atlantic sub, the BB and the tranny LOADED, plus land based figs, attack the Gibraltar BB and land their troops in Gibraltar.

The counter-attack of the BB is sucked up by your own BB and is sunk w/o loss.

Without Gibraltar, UK figs cannot reach SZ13.

Then in G2, the fleets merge in SZ7.

Your build as UK, combined with moving the UK fleet to SZ6 and dropping the new navy in SZ6 DOES prevent a link-up in G2.

But it also leaves that pretty new fleet open to attack by:
2 SUB, 1 DST, 1 BOM, 6 FIG, 1 AC (and a tranny for fodder)

Against the maximum fleet that can be in SZ6 on G2 (1 Russia SUB and UK AC, 2 FIG, 1 DST, 1 BB, 1 TRN)

Germany scores 5 units on the first round for 4 units dead.
UK defends with 3.33 hits on the first round for 3 units dead.

Round 2 polishes off the UK navy and Germany loses only 1.33 more units lost by Germany

So the UK fleet, including UK 1 build plus their 2 original figs, is dead.
Germany lost 4 units.  Say 2 subs, 2 figs.

I STILL have my 1 SUB, 1 TRN, 1 BB in SZ7 plus my remaining 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DST, 1 TRN in SZ7.

They join up in G3 to attack the US fleet…
A German assault of 1 sneak 2; 1 1, 3 3’s, 1 4, and two trannies which can be loaded with troops to attack UK, land in Africa, attack Eastern Canada, or take Brazil.

AFTER crushing the UK fleet AND AF AND 1st round build, Germany would still have an 8 unit fleet, including 2 trannies, with an attack value of 16 and a defensive value of 22.

Now it is up to the US to either build or move Capital ships to the Atlantic to put an end to the German fleet… pulling US ships out of the Pacific and/or slowing trannies headed for Europe another couple of rounds…

And in G2, Germany, with the Atlantic currently in their control, builds all land forces to assault Russia…

[Commissar_Adam]

Yeah but what you dont realize is that all this time RUSSIA has been building all land units too!!!, you cant assume that they’ve been buying all “bombers and battleships”  :?

[Guest]

Adam,

With this move, Germany spent 16 IPC’s on navy.  That is all, just 16 IPC’s to float the carrier.  The rest is all existing units.

At the same time, Germany also built 8 INF, the same as Russia, in G1.

Then in G2, Germany can build 40 +/- IPC’s worth of units vs, Russia’s 24.

And again in G3…

By keeping the UK and US at bay, which happens with the AC build, Germany can focus on Russia UNRESTRICTED for several turns.

Go ahead, counter my Germany building at 50% above you while Japan, building at 30% above you, is coming in from the east…  And US and UK are trying to build enough ships to get past the Graf Zeppelin and escorts for 3 rounds or so while also safeguarding UK from the trannies in that same German fleet…

[Commissar_Adam]

ahhhhh…. to the untrained eye :wink:
but what if russia DID build a battleship turn 1,
then germany’s plan would be foiled  :|

and you also dont count on russa “suiciding” its planes into germany’s fleet, (its a pretty much a standard move in my games)
@ncscswitch:

Adam,

Germany spent all existing IPC’s with the AC build, Germany can focus on Russia, trying to build enough ships to get past safeguarding UK from the trannies in that same fleet…

[Guest]

Cool!  Do that, and I’ll have an easier time taking Russia.

2 AF on that fleet… I lose an average of 1 unit, you lose both figs.

[Commissar_Adam]

dude, i dont know what rules you are lookin at but subs werent known for their “anti-aircraft” prowess :|

plus, it lowers the germans’ morale

[Guest]

Adam,

Even if the Russians attack on R1, there is still the DST and the TRN, with th SUBS able to take hits.

with 2 FIGs attacking:

Russia starts with avg 1 hit per round against .67 per round.

Germany can take 2 hits before their combat potential against those figs declines.  Russia loses half of their attack with a single hit.

On average, Russia will score 1 hit on round 1, as will the Germans.  Germany loses 1 sub, Russia loses 1 fig.

Now Russia has a 50/50 chance of a second hit, and Germany is 2/3 likely to splash the second FIG.

For the second round of combat, the average cumulative Combat rolls are Russia 1.5, Germany 1.34
For the third round (if needed) the cumulative average evens out at 2.0 and 2.0

The most Germany loses is 2 SUBS, with a high probability of only 1

Germany loses 1 sub, Russia loses both FIGS.

8 IPC for 20.  Worst case, 16 IPC’s for 20.

And no Russian 4’s left for defense on the board, no strafing AF 3’s, no flexible attack strength that can attack Japan but return to defend against Germany…

That is a BIG Axis win for the loss of 1 sub that still leaves the German Baltic fleet (at the end of G1) as
1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 DST, 1 TRN, and probably 1 SUB

[Zooey72]

As an effort to get the Baltic fleet to safety this plan has merit.  Taken any farther than that it is too costly.

First, the obvious, you have abandon Africa.  You have diverted troops to take GB, which will ensure the safety of your fleet but also spells the end of Africa.  An op. like this for the allies is too good to pass up.  I think I may even be bold enough to build an IC in Egypt turn 1 (bringing in troops from India) and let you have your fleet for the immediate future.  I have the land, the sea gives you nothing (in terms of IPC).  Not to mention there is always the Indian Ocean fleet that could be quite uselful in the Med since I run the canal.

Second, to be a serious threat you will need to have a good portion of the German AF in France so as to be able to attack should the op. arise.  That means no substantial AF against Russia, or any place else for that matter.

Thrid, and most importantly you are playing to the allies strength.  You are attempting a heads up confrontation with them and the Axis will lose that every time.  You say you are not committing all that much?  Yes you are.  16 IPC is not chump change to begin with, but in addition you will also need to put 2 fighters on it.  You will need to waste a valuable resuply in Africa for the meaningless conquest of GB (which if done I would be sure to kick you out of Africa).  You will have to designate a large portion of your AF to the west taking them in many cases out of range for an attack on the soviets.

I stick to my original assesment.  The AC buy is a good one if used in a limited way.  Going heads up with the allies in the ocean, at the expense of Africa is not a good move IMO.  Think of what you are trying to do acomplish by defeating the English in the sea.  Stop reinforcements to Russia, and to conquer Africa (I doubt you harbor any realistic notion of invading the UK or US).  1/2 of what you are trying to do is negated by the UK because you took pressure off of Africa.  The reinforcements to Russia would be halted for a time, but that is evened out by the fact you are not getting extra $ from Africa.

To give credit where credit is due, the AC buy for Germany is a good one because it ensures the safe passage of the German fleet to the med where they can later do some damage.  So good in fact I think it may become a standard turn 1 buy for me now.  The way I look at it it is not buying just an AC for 16, you also get a destroyer, 3 subs, and a transport for 16 (since these will be easily destroyed if left out in the open).

[Guest]

Zooey, just a few notes…

Once consolidated in SZ7, the German trannies can the following round be in SZ13 to ferry troops to Algeria if you choose, or Eastern Canada, or Brazil, or French West Africa.

Also, having that fleet in SZ7 pretty much prevents the US from landing in Africa on US 1 or US2 at least.  Doing so would be a suicide run.  That in itself is a big bonus for Germany in Africa.

Your Balkans/Ukraine FIGS, and even your Germany Bomber, can still support the Egypt attack on G1.  By moving your Alergia forces to Libya (where the FIGS land) you can attack Egypt again in G2 if UK retakes it.

Getting the Indian fleet out of Japan’s hair is not a bad idea.  Frees up Japan for a LOT of new moves on J1 (like India for free and landing anywhere they want from Persia to Italian East (including Egypt) on J2, with a support shot, 2 figs, and a loaded tranny.  How is that UK Egypt factory looking after being 1-2 punched by Germany in G2 and Japan in J2?  Thanks for the Japan factory in Egypt :-)  And the India Fleet is going to be short of resources (things to put on that tranny) after a couple of hits form Germany in G1 and 2, and Japan in J1 and J2, so now just forces to threaten the seas… and they can;t hit your Germany fleet until UK3, if they are still alive by then…

And yes, the German fleet WILL lose.  The question is WHEN.

If they lose in Turn 3, it was not a bad trade at all.  Slowed Allied landings in Europe, destroyed a lot of initial and early round build material, in short ate up resources of the Allies; all for the paltry cost of 16 IPC’s.  If the fleet is not destroyed until G4… now we are in bonus territory.  How far can Germany press against Russia if, for FOUR WHOLE ROUNDS, they have no worries from UK or US?  40ish IPC’s vs 24, times 4 I LIKE that math.

[88 Millimeter]

Think about 2 Transports on G1, and the Carrier on G2. Before the allies take it out it has transported at least 3 loads of Inf/Art to Karelia, so that Germany continuously has the initiative vs. Russia.

Trading countries sucks. Holding them counts. With two more Transports you rule the north for a time, and hold Karelia, while continuing to do the usual expand and contract in Africa.

If you can purchase expanded mobility, and therefore versatility, it doesn’t matter as much that you spent 32 IPCs on navy, as your Inf can move to the front much faster.

IMO, initiative matters much more in this game than the pieces that you buy, or having the perfect strategy. Finding ways to take and hold territories, of forcing your opponent to not go where they want to go and react to you, is much more important.

Purchasing navy, when done correctly for Germany, allows them (for a time) to gain the initiative, and forces the allies to react to them, which is ALWAYS preferable. Holding Karelia does the same, as Germany is now swapping spots in Archangel and W Russia rather than in Karelia, Belorussia, and the Ukraine. Advantage Germany.

The AC on G1 doesn’t give the Axis the initiative, although it does allow for a limited amount of versatility, as it keeps the Baltic navy alive for the time being. Assuming no bid, leaving Egypt alone on the first turn is a sin. The British WILL haunt you, if the allied player is worth his (or her) salt. So to me the idea of combining the Kriegsmarine, while intoxicating, will open up a can of worms.

[Thamor]

I just have to point out 1 thing, that I just can’t understand how u can’t see it.

1. Baltic fleet will be bottled up, by soviet sub, so no rushing to sz7. Even if the germans destroy the soviet sub, U should place 1 uk trans to block them or put one destroyer to block.
2. Med fleet is bottled up by USA destroyer, so no rushing to sz7.
3. After saying these blockers, how in the hell do u think that german navy will survive to med to link up with 1BB 1Tran and them staying alive to link with baltic fleet?? Even if that is left alive.

If USA plays wisely it will buy Offensive fleet on it’s 1st turn. And places it to atlantic to prevent the combining german fleets move. Now if the germans hold them back, no problem. You have now very strong USA and UK navy to move out. USA moves in force to liberate med and Africa or alternately it can move it’s AC to Pacific to gather strength against Japan (Mostly slow down Japan).

Now if you really want to know why the German Aircraft Carrier is bought.

1. You will keep baltic movement on, so u can contest norway and move inf to karelia quickly and have very strong navy in position that is very expensive for UK to destroy and they will be limited in their movements. Why contest norway you ask? It slows the build up for UK, they buy navy expensive, they lose ground troops fighting for norway expensive for UK, after they start losing IPC, from SBR + their IPC countries for Japan and Germany + Fighting for Africa eats IPC.
2. You have AF now in position strike UK navy that moves reinforcements to karelia or archangel.
3. UK will be really limited in thinking of attacking to france, so you are free on your operations to Africa and against Russia. If UK navy  moves too closely to your navy, U strike with it + All Airfleets. With luck you will be left with strong navy to move back and UK will be very badly crippled.
4. Because of your ability to counter-attack them when they start D-Day, they must first gather strength to destroy your baltic fleet.
5. You have small chance of even making Operation Sealion (Attack on UK), if they play badly.

There are couple of very bad moves from German and Allies.
1. Germany never allows UK to move their fleet to med from india and never allows them to have a fully decked carrier there.
2. Allies never allow Germany to link their baltic and med fleet together, if germany rushes trying it, Turn 2 or Turn 3 is the day that fleet will sink to the bottom of the ocean from full UK navy and USA navy + AF’s attacks.
3. If Allies combine their efforts to bring germany down, Germany must go to full defence and keep harassing soviets and wait for Japan.

Ps. Really think about it, German navy will never combine, if the allies just think what they are doing. And trying to combine the navy with Germany is sure suicide, 1st no operation in Africa, UK navy shows up in med - very bad for germany.

[Guest]

I have pointed out in another thread how this is possible, regardless of Allied moves (except possibly for suicide runs of AF and suicide blocking with Russia and UK Navy plus build navy from UK1).

1.  Egypt is STILL taken by Germany using Balkan/Ukraine figs and land forces from Libya.
2.  Any blocking ships placed in SZ6 are sunk by German AF (and perhaps a piece of the the Baltic fleet, a sub perhaps…) to kill the UK fleet (good news for Germany) and sail the Baltic fleet to SZ7 in non-combat (better news for Germany, REALLY better with the UK fleet gone in the process)
3.  The US destroyer is taken out the same way… the AF that was used in Egypt in G1 attacks, and perhaps the German sub from Gibraltar.  Med navy sails trough to SZ7 in non-combat.

German fleets combine, sans perhaps 2 subs, but ALL initial Allied combat vessels in the Atlantic are gone in the process… a hell of a trade for Germany!

Now, where are those pesky Russians?  I have a few rounds to deal with THEM…  And while I am doing that, maybe I’ll just take Eastern Canada too, and maybe Brazil just for fun…

[88 Millimeter]

OK, it’s clear that even after my philosophical ramblings and Thamor’s lucid arguement that you’re unstoppable. More power to you, man.

[trihero]

Are you being sarcrastic 88 millimeter? Switch showed how Thamor’s “lucid” argument is flawed: you can still link the fleets by destroying the “blocking” units with airforce, then moving the navy during noncombat.