Germany Navy, Again

[Thamor]

I just have to point out 1 thing, that I just can’t understand how u can’t see it.

1. Baltic fleet will be bottled up, by soviet sub, so no rushing to sz7. Even if the germans destroy the soviet sub, U should place 1 uk trans to block them or put one destroyer to block.
2. Med fleet is bottled up by USA destroyer, so no rushing to sz7.
3. After saying these blockers, how in the hell do u think that german navy will survive to med to link up with 1BB 1Tran and them staying alive to link with baltic fleet?? Even if that is left alive.

If USA plays wisely it will buy Offensive fleet on it’s 1st turn. And places it to atlantic to prevent the combining german fleets move. Now if the germans hold them back, no problem. You have now very strong USA and UK navy to move out. USA moves in force to liberate med and Africa or alternately it can move it’s AC to Pacific to gather strength against Japan (Mostly slow down Japan).

Now if you really want to know why the German Aircraft Carrier is bought.

1. You will keep baltic movement on, so u can contest norway and move inf to karelia quickly and have very strong navy in position that is very expensive for UK to destroy and they will be limited in their movements. Why contest norway you ask? It slows the build up for UK, they buy navy expensive, they lose ground troops fighting for norway expensive for UK, after they start losing IPC, from SBR + their IPC countries for Japan and Germany + Fighting for Africa eats IPC.
2. You have AF now in position strike UK navy that moves reinforcements to karelia or archangel.
3. UK will be really limited in thinking of attacking to france, so you are free on your operations to Africa and against Russia. If UK navy  moves too closely to your navy, U strike with it + All Airfleets. With luck you will be left with strong navy to move back and UK will be very badly crippled.
4. Because of your ability to counter-attack them when they start D-Day, they must first gather strength to destroy your baltic fleet.
5. You have small chance of even making Operation Sealion (Attack on UK), if they play badly.

There are couple of very bad moves from German and Allies.
1. Germany never allows UK to move their fleet to med from india and never allows them to have a fully decked carrier there.
2. Allies never allow Germany to link their baltic and med fleet together, if germany rushes trying it, Turn 2 or Turn 3 is the day that fleet will sink to the bottom of the ocean from full UK navy and USA navy + AF’s attacks.
3. If Allies combine their efforts to bring germany down, Germany must go to full defence and keep harassing soviets and wait for Japan.

Ps. Really think about it, German navy will never combine, if the allies just think what they are doing. And trying to combine the navy with Germany is sure suicide, 1st no operation in Africa, UK navy shows up in med - very bad for germany.

[Guest]

I have pointed out in another thread how this is possible, regardless of Allied moves (except possibly for suicide runs of AF and suicide blocking with Russia and UK Navy plus build navy from UK1).

1.  Egypt is STILL taken by Germany using Balkan/Ukraine figs and land forces from Libya.
2.  Any blocking ships placed in SZ6 are sunk by German AF (and perhaps a piece of the the Baltic fleet, a sub perhaps…) to kill the UK fleet (good news for Germany) and sail the Baltic fleet to SZ7 in non-combat (better news for Germany, REALLY better with the UK fleet gone in the process)
3.  The US destroyer is taken out the same way… the AF that was used in Egypt in G1 attacks, and perhaps the German sub from Gibraltar.  Med navy sails trough to SZ7 in non-combat.

German fleets combine, sans perhaps 2 subs, but ALL initial Allied combat vessels in the Atlantic are gone in the process… a hell of a trade for Germany!

Now, where are those pesky Russians?  I have a few rounds to deal with THEM…  And while I am doing that, maybe I’ll just take Eastern Canada too, and maybe Brazil just for fun…

[88 Millimeter]

OK, it’s clear that even after my philosophical ramblings and Thamor’s lucid arguement that you’re unstoppable. More power to you, man.

[trihero]

Are you being sarcrastic 88 millimeter? Switch showed how Thamor’s “lucid” argument is flawed: you can still link the fleets by destroying the “blocking” units with airforce, then moving the navy during noncombat.

[88 Millimeter]

True, it was just the tone. It was almost as if no opposing arguement had been made at all. When someone replies to a thread, it’s good etiquette to say something like “I see your point, but…” or something to that effect. Switch seemed pretty dismissive of the whole idea. Maybe just a problem with the medium. If we were sitting face to face and saw him smile as he said it it’d probably be different.

Anyhow, Germany would have no Ukrainian Fighter vs. me, so Egypt’s looking pretty difficult without a bid (which I also don’t use). Without Egypt falling Britain’s feeling pretty good about itself. Using airforce to take out Destroyers is also pretty risky business- for the short term it’s fine, but for the long term losing Fighters is tough for Germany.

Ultimately, in my opinion, there’s a trade off for trying to unite Germany’s navy. In my experience, if I saw my opponent doing it, I’d feel pretty good about my chances, as the Allies will win the naval battle 99 out of 100 times.

I would counter it by uniting in SZ8, with no blockers. Just play defense until supremacy was gained. It wouldn’t be long. If Germany moved its united fleet back to the Baltic, it’s trapped, into the Med, it’s trapped as well. In the meantime Africa’s looking pretty beige, which means that the usual Allied effort to retake Africa was unnecessary, freeing up IPCs for shiphunting.

Anyhow- if you guys are using bids let me know, because I’ll take it all back. If an Infantry is placed in Libya, and an Armor in Algeria, then by all means consolidate your BB, Tranny, and sub. If you can unite your navy from there, it’s not a bad move. But without the bid I see it as a killer.

[trihero]

Yeah the whole idea of linking the navies becomes much stronger if you have a bid in Africa. The guys who I filched the idea off of see the bid as a necessary and irrevocable part since it allows you to shut down the canal with more peace of mind. I’m not sure that a bid is necessary; I would still attack egypt with the Libyan forces and 2 fighters + 1 bomber. Sometimes you will lose 1 fighter, and more rarely 2 fighters, but it shuts down Egypt just the same. In my opinion I think simply the art and the tank in Africa should be switched in positioning, no bid needed.

I would never pit naked fighters against a destroyer like switch advocates.

And linking your Allied fleets in SZ8 is a good idea, but it still buys Germany time since otherwise you would have been dropping stuff in Norway/Archangel already. The point of linking the fleets as Germany is not to try to gain naval supremacy, but purely to buy time. It does that very well. The Allies have to spend some effort to destroy the fleet instead of purely massing transports with maybe 1 carrier.

[Guest]

Tri,

I only advocated the direct attack on the Destroyer as a way to get it out of the way to complete the linkup in G2 if it was moved to block.  Also, I think I posted that Germay could use the Sub from the mini-fleet in SZ13 in addition to the figs to take out the US DST.

Also, thank you for mentioning the Bomber range for Egypt as an option if Russia wiped out Ukraine.

Of course a USSR attack on Ukraine in R1 has its own advantages for Germany, most notably the fact that Russia is now a bit more spread-out on their stacks (mini-stacks perhaps?), which will open Russia to a greater initial German push in the North, and to a lesser extent Central, avenue.  With a heavy emphasis on Ukraine, presumably combined with attacks on West Russia and Belorussia, Russia is a bit thin all along the front, and non-existent in the north.  That makes for some quick German counters.

Also, losing a lot of troops early by Russia in this scenario may just be fatal if the Allies are not able to re-supply them, or otherwise gain a strong offensive position against Germany, before G4.

Lastly, Ukraine is one of the easiest territories for Germany to strongly counter.  It is a small number of moves from Germany, is adjacent to a very limitted production IC for Russia, and can be shielded from only ONE original USSR territory.  And, Germany is also free to abandon their fleet link-up and allow the Baltic fleet to stand on its own and add an amphib with BB to their counter.  The fleet link-up is not a pre-requisite, just a hell of a good idea.  Even a 2 SUB, 1 TRN, 1 DST, and 1 AC with 2 FIG fleet is a serious problem for UK until it can be fully countered. (around UK3).

Just my opinion, but not sure Ukraine is the best avenue of attack for Russia in R1.

[trihero]

Strafing Ukraine may be an option, but I no longer like to fully attack it. It does get rid of a hell of a lot of gear, but it puts Russian tanks out in the open (bad!) and causes more casualties since you spread your attacks in the first round.

[wilkinson1974]

It looks like this plan hinges on getting the Baltic fleet to SZ7….  If GB is employing a KGF strategy, they will probably build an AC and a transport(or two) in GB1.  They will move the fleet(SZ3) to attack Norway.  If Russia is smart, they’ll move the sub into SZ6 to keep the Baltic fleet off British fleet in SZ3.  This will block the Baltic fleet in…  Sure…  they can smoke the sub in G2, but they will be open to british counterattack with the BB, 3trans, AC, 2 planes, and a bomber.  There won’t be much left of the Brit fleet(subsequent aerial german attack will finish them-accept with decent fighter loss since GB will put transports in with the remaining fleet with their builds), but the Baltic fleet would be toast.  Also, the aerial attack will buy the Russians a round without some fighter support.  The trade off is Norway in Allied hands for at least one round, Russia will be relieved for one round.  GB MIGHT be able to continue pushing units into Norway or Karelia.  The Americans will still able to accomplish what they want with Africa.

Wilk

[trihero]

You cannot block the fleet from uniting in SZ7 short of a huge naval purchase on UK1 that blocks SZ6. Ok, the sub will block the baltic fleet from attacking the UK fleet, but you can again still use planes to kill the submarines during combat, then the baltic fleet can escape during noncombat to go to SZ7.

[Thamor]

Optional choice.

1st turn UK destroyer buy, would slow germans or make them lose more material to go to sz7.

-Soviet Sub block baltic fleet in sz6
-UK dest block france coast sz9 or what was it’s number
-US transport or Dest block med fleet.
-Rest of US and UK navy sits in sz8

This setup don’t prevent them from linking, but it takes a lot more planes to accomplish the task to unite in g2 to sz7, with good luck you might take 1-2 german planes down. I would trade those any time, or if he uses his subs to take the hits. His fleet in sz7 is a lot smaller in how many hits it can take.

@88:

Ultimately, in my opinion, there’s a trade off for trying to unite Germany’s navy. In my experience, if I saw my opponent doing it, I’d feel pretty good about my chances, as the Allies will win the naval battle 99 out of 100 times.

I would counter it by uniting in SZ8, with no blockers. Just play defense until supremacy was gained. It wouldn’t be long. If Germany moved its united fleet back to the Baltic, it’s trapped, into the Med, it’s trapped as well. In the meantime Africa’s looking pretty beige, which means that the usual Allied effort to retake Africa was unnecessary, freeing up IPCs for shiphunting.

Anyhow- if you guys are using bids let me know, because I’ll take it all back. If an Infantry is placed in Libya, and an Armor in Algeria, then by all means consolidate your BB, Tranny, and sub. If you can unite your navy from there, it’s not a bad move. But without the bid I see it as a killer.

I agree with 88 Millimeter on this, you would almost 8/10 times sacrifice your whole german fleet to allies on turn 3 or 4? And what did that buy you? You don’t fight for africa so easily, you save norway for maybe 1-2 turns without having to counterattack it back.

The Allies would be breathing very hard on your neck from turn 3 or 4 and gaining strength every turn. I don’t see how letting the allies gain free reign on seas would help you, yes you might destroy a lot of material from allies, but because of no africa operation, UK would be still getting 25-27ipc.

This tactic involves so many risks, that is why I wouldn’t try this and strongly flame this tactic  8-), unless I were thinking of giving me option to try operation sea lion. Sitting in Baltic takes a lot of time from UK to destroy you and usually he will sacrifice his whole fleet to destroy you. And this will most likely happen in turn 4-5 and you would still be in med sea with your bb + tranny + if you really want to destroy soviets you would buy maybe 1dst 1tran. You would gain the ipc that you lose from norway in Africa and usually you can take norway back from the allies if you want.

One more thing why I don’t like this tactic. It only buys time for germans and most likely get’s them bottled up more quickly. And from reading ncscswitch post, this only gives little more time for germans to try steamrolling alone the soviets, which is doomed if the soviet player knows how to slow down germany… Japan would twiddle his thumbs while the germans make the decision to lose the game or with luck win the game :-D.

Last weekend we tried with my friends KJF tactic. UK IC in india, USA IC in sinkiang, this totally blocked the Japan expansion and secured the eastern flank for soviets. This is a really powerful option for Allies, but risky in the 2-3 turns when japans try either IC to take control of it.

[trihero]

Last weekend we tried with my friends KJF tactic. UK IC in india, USA IC in sinkiang, this totally blocked the Japan expansion and secured the eastern flank for soviets. This is a really powerful option for Allies, but risky in the 2-3 turns when japans try either IC to take control of it.

That’s not a risk I would ever take. I have no problems taking India on turn 3 unless the Russians send massive reinforcement, which isn’t likely. It’s not a powerful tactic at all if the Japanese are focused on taking out the IC.

1st turn UK destroyer buy, would slow germans or make them lose more material to go to sz7.

Well ultimately a destroyer is an inefficient buy; it doesn’t help you with your land war at all.

The Allies would be breathing very hard on your neck from turn 3 or 4 and gaining strength every turn. I don’t see how letting the allies gain free reign on seas would help you,

You are arguing my side! If you don’t build anything in the Baltic then the Allies have free reign of the seas from round one. Sitting in the Baltic with no naval purchase is suicide. You don’t have to link your fleets if you don’t like the idea, but you should buy something for the Baltic fleet at least. It’s not like you’re going to get Africa anyways even if you leave the med fleet to reinforce it.

[Thamor]

My point was that you don’t move from baltic sea. I have always bought AC for germans, from my second time playing as germans when I noticed from Japan side how powerful tool it was. And I have played from the moment this game hit the stores  :-D

My whole game German Naval purchase if I am going for Moscow finish is
-AC
-1Dest
-1-2 Trans

Destroyer I buy because the mediterran fleet is very easy to sink with planes, if you only have BB to shield it.

If I were thinking from moving from baltic sea I would maybe do something like this. Turn 1 I would move to free Anglo-Egypt, with BB and 1trans and taking the UK destroyer down, after that I would move back. And on Turn 3 I would try linking the fleets, you can watch turn 1 what UK will do and USA, where they buy their first purchases and after that decide what to do + turn 2 you still have time to equip your baltic fleet with maybe 1sub/trans and destroyer to give it more survivability and if they make mistake on turn 2 transports + planes to attack UK you will have and after linking your fleet you would have 3 transports, which will make it Turn 3 UK must attack or fear of losing UK  :wink:

[Guest]

Thamor…

Your last post was confusing… you said “Baltic” fleet, but then refered to a BB and Africa, which would be Med fleet.

Please clarify.

[wilkinson1974]

I have played 3 mock games using the German merge.  In all 3 games, I employed a KGF strategy.  I had Russia taking both WRussia and the Ukraine in all games.  I had Russia hold the line against the Germans, and let Japan do as they may.  I had GB taking Norway out of the gate in all games.  I also had GB buying a second AC in the second round with the German Juggernaut brewing in SZ7, and always was able to get at least 1 american plane to help defend.  I had the US holing up in Brazil the first round and coming into algeria the second round in force.  I had Japan playing the aggressive China first, Sinkiang second while making gains in the north and south as well.  The Eastern front stalled in all games with a lack of ground expenditure by the Germans in the 1st round, and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.  In the first 2 games, I had the German fleet splash the British fleet in the 3rd round.  This was accomplished with moderate losses.  The Germans were always left with a carrier, 2 planes, and a BB(and 2 planes and a bomber to the mainland).  On the Brit 3rd turn, I bought an AC, a tranny, and some inf.  I also brought the Indian fleet to meet them.  The US landed 2 planes in the AC and brought 2 destroyers and a couple a trannies.  Ultimately, the German fleet was destroyed, and the Allies started making headway into Europe.  The first game…  Russia fell in 6 and  Germany fell in the 7th round…  Russia was liberated in round 11.  The second game saw Russia and Germany fall in 7, with Russia being liberated in 10.  The third game I chose to sink the US fleet in Algeria.  The reamaing US fleet again merged with the sizable Brit fleet in round 3.  The subsequent attack sunk both fleets.  The Brits were back in business by round 5 with the Indian fleet formaing the backbone of the Brit Navy…  Russia fell in round 6 with Germany falling again in 7…  Russia liberated in 11.  It appears that keeping the German planes in a position to help sink the on coming fleets, and keeping them off the Russian front tipped the scales in Allies favor.  Keep in mind the planes were necessary, or the result would have been heavy German losses in the first major naval battles.  Coupled with a lack of initial ground units, the Russians were able to hold just long enough in all cases.  Germany was able to secure Africa in all cases…  It had a hard time capturing and keeping territory on the Russian front.

Wilk

[Guest]

@wilkinson1974:

and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.

How???  They have 2 trannis to start…  4 units can be moved…

[trihero]

Coupled with a lack of initial ground units, the Russians were able to hold just long enough in all cases.  Germany was able to secure Africa in all cases….  It had a hard time capturing and keeping territory on the Russian front.

Play a mock game where you don’t buy any German navy and get “plenty” of initial ground troops… You will find that you will stall even faster on the Russian front, because the UK and US will be dropping troops all over you really fast. If Germany can secure Africa, then Germany should be able to hold out until Japan wipes out Russia. It seems like Germany isn’t properly retreating and forming stacks if he controls that much land and has stalled the US/UK navy for that long.

If you think you can siphon enough troops and airforce with Germany to crush Russia early and ignore the Allies, then the Allies are doing something very wrong.

[wilkinson1974]

meant second round…  8 units in the first 2 rounds…  enough to stall a German offensive without ground purchases in first round.

@ncscswitch:

@wilkinson1974:

and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.

How???  They have 2 trannis to start…  4 units can be moved…

[wilkinson1974]

In each game, Germany was able to break into Egypt safely in the 3rd round, expanding in the 4th round.  You can’t bring troops from Europe into Egypt in the first round when you are bring the tranny West to meet the rest of the fleet.  And you can’t bring planes to help in a 2nd round attack of Egypt and get them into an attacking position on the British fleet in round 3.  The Germans were able to take Egypt by ground force in the 3rd round.  So they don’t have the extra IPCs the first 3 rounds like you were probably thinking.  I should have been more clear.  My bad.

Wilk

@wilkinson1974:

meant second round…   8 units in the first 2 rounds…   enough to stall a German offensive without ground purchases in first round.

@ncscswitch:

@wilkinson1974:

and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.

How???  They have 2 trannis to start…  4 units can be moved…

[trihero]

I don’t see where the Brits could land safely in the first 2 rounds if the Germans start with a carrier purchase and have 2 fighters on it, plus at least 2 fighters in Western Europe and probably a bomber.

If the Brits land in Norway in the first 2 turns obviously they’re going to get counterattacked super hard.

If the Brits land in Archangel/Karelia, then the German response is going to be 4 fighters + 1 bomber. 2 fighters from the carrier move 2 spaces to attack them, and 2 fighters from Western Europe are declared to land on the carrier which will move left and up to pick them up.

The Brits can’t land safely in the first 2 turns unless the German navy is moved out of range. You do not have to deal with 8 UK ground troops stalling you.