War with the True Neutrals.

[ItIsILeClerc]

@knp7765:

(…)I think this is a strategy that can work if your opponent is not expecting it. However, if the Allies expect a neutral crush to happen, they can plan around it.

Well said.
I expected as much tbh. Regarding grand strategies this game is very sharply balanced or so it seems.

[cyanight]

knp - so far this strategy has yielded me only success but it is definitely a surprise.  I think the failure arises when Germany tries to conquer Russia too soon. Germany has to prepare for the siege if not they will crumble.

So far this strategy(“Angry Bird” = Turkey going to war) has done more good than I expected.  It is vital that you do not lose any planes. Its easy to do as long as you don’t go hitting naval units without subs.  On Turn 3 You can hit Turkey with 3 tanks, 5-6 inf, 3 T-bombers, 2 S-bombers, 3 Fighters.  You want to overkill it so you limit your casualties from multiple rounds of combat.  You also need to understand this is not a rush Russia strategy.  Russia is in no position to attack Germany when they are spread out.  The other fear with this strategy is USA which can hit Spain and Gib.  Again this isn’t that much of a threat. Just keep hitting with men and lots of planes.  The options in the black sea seem endless.  Between the oil lands and the ability to control Gib from the land it is well worth the sacrifice.

Angry Bird Strategy
–------------------

Turn: 1
Purchase: 2 subs, 2 mech, transport, 1 tank or (3 subs and 3 tanks)

Attack:
SZ 110:  3T bombers, 3 Fighter, 1S Bombers 2 subs
SZ 111:  1S Bombers, 2 subs, 1T bombers, 1 Fighter,
France:  1T bombers, 7inf, 6 tanks, 4 mech, 3 artillery
Yugo:  6inf, 2 artillery, 1 tanks, 1 fighter

Move:
Bulgaria: 6 inf, 2 tanks
Finland: 7 inf
W.Germany:  3 Fighter, 4T bombers, 2S Bombers, 3 aa
S. Italy:  1 fighter
Holland: 1 fighter, 1T bombers, 3 aa
Hungary: 5 inf, 2 art
Norway: 1 inf + 1 Art (transport)

*Italy takes Southern France and destroys French Navy.

Turn: 2
Purchase: 7 mech, 2 tanks, 5 inf, IC(Romania).

Attack:
Greece:  6inf, 3 tanks, 3 T Bombers
Spain:   6 tanks, 4 mech, 2 T Bombers, 2 fighter
Sweden: 10 inf + 2Art + 1tank (transport 2 inf + art + tank), barrage, 2 S bombers, 3 fighters (if you need to destroy ships in the Med you may use less planes)

Move:
Bulgaria: 5 inf, 2 artillery
Romania:  2 mech

*Italy takes Normandy and Gib if empty with tank.

Turn 3:  6 infantry, 3 tanks, 3 mech, Destroyer

Attack:
Turkey: 3-5 inf, 3 tanks, 4 T Bombers, 4 Fighters, 2 S-Bombers
Portugal: 2 tanks, 2 mech
Gibraltar: 2 tanks 2 mech (if empty take with 1 mech and move the rest into Southern France)

Move:
Bulgaria:  4 inf, 2 artillery
Romania: 5 inf, 2 art, 3 aa, 7 mech, 2 tanks
Southern France 2 tanks (Move out of Spain)
Poland 9 inf
Finland 6 inf, 1 tank, 2 art
Norway 2 inf

*Italy reinforces Turkey with 2inf, 1 tank, 2-3 fighters and S-Bomber (your going to want those planes up there)

[cyanight]

Now there are so many things that may change the above strategy but that’s part of the game.  The above should be used as a template and modified appropriately for the game.  The suggested attacks are all 100% and that’s what I suggest when attacking the 3 big neutrals.

Razor - Thanks so much for the history on Turkey.  :)

[cyanight]

@ItIsILeClerc:

Personally I am pondering… Germany could march towards Calcutta via this shortcut with an army that could be large enough to defeat India, or just barely not do so (in which case Japan of course will finish the job). This might give Japan the opportunity to spend just that much more IPCs on taking Hawaï instead of India so that Both Calcutta and Hawaï could be in axis hands turn 8.
Wishful thinking or a viable strategy, I have not put much thought in it yet, so it remains to be seen.

This is exactly what happened in one of my games I had 8 tanks and 8 mech in Irac heading toward India. I haven’t finished that game yet but its promising that I will take India in the next 3 turns unless I roll poorly.

[Young Grasshopper]

@ItIsILeClerc:

@knp7765:

(…)I think this is a strategy that can work if your opponent is not expecting it. However, if the Allies expect a neutral crush to happen, they can plan around it.

Well said.
I expected as much tbh. Regarding grand strategies this game is very sharply balanced or so it seems.

What if the Allies attack Spain and Turkey, can the Axis do anything about it even if they know it’s coming?

[cyanight]

They can’t attack Spain on turn 2.  UK only has 2 transports and USA is not at war. Besides if they try to beat Germany to it then they have to declare war on the neutrals.  That makes Sweden and Turkey free for Germany.  When it happens on Turn 2 the best you can do is take Turkey with France if you didn’t move that inf out of Syria in Trans-Jordan. Other than that you cannot get to Turkey without a transport which rarely survives in the Med on round 1.  Even if UK’s transport or France takes Turkey the troops just add 1 or 2 to the total.  Next turn Germany still conquers Turkey but may take more losses.

[cyanight]

If your not playing “Angry Bird” then you could keep 1inf in Finland and Greece to be ready if they declare war on the neutrals.  Also would be a good idea to have something near Spain but I did not include Spain because I assume its the reason they declared war on the neutrals.

[cyanight]

You could move the mech from Eqypt to Syria on round 1.  but again all your going to do is add one to the unit count for Germany to destroy.

[Young Grasshopper]

@cyanight:

They can’t attack Spain on turn 2.  UK only has 2 transports and USA is not at war. Besides if they try to beat Germany to it then they have to declare war on the neutrals.  That makes Sweden and Turkey free for Germany.  When it happens on Turn 2 the best you can do is take Turkey with France if you didn’t move that inf out of Syria in Trans-Jordan. Other than that you cannot get to Turkey without a transport which rarely survives in the Med on round 1.  Even if UK’s transport or France takes Turkey the troops just add 1 or 2 to the total.  Next turn Germany still conquers Turkey but may take more losses.

I was thinking more like turn 4.

[cyanight]

Young Grasshopper - Turkey and Spain are always vulnerable to attack.

• Spain - I used a combined German and Italian force sitting in Southern France.  Make sure you keep a couple tanks in Southern so that Germany and Italy can blitz to take Gibraltar after the other takes Spain.  I like to first stack Southern With Italy.  I transport 4 men to southern on round 1 depending upon how much navy  I have left.  The remainder of the 6 tanks and 4 mech that Germany used to take Spain with need to stay in that area too.  Keep Spain empty and when USA occupies then use the force in Southern France with planes from France. Keep updating your airforce every turn after turn 3.

• Turkey - You probably will lose this territory on round 3 or 4 from UK.  The most important part is to wipe Turkey so they don’t get the 8 men.  The IC in Romania will supply Turkey with Mechs and tanks.  After UK takes Turkey they will have about 1 or 2 tanks left.  Just take it with Italy’s 1 tank and 2 inf with all the planes. Land planes in Greece.  On Germany’s turn they reinforce with tanks, mechs and as many planes as possible.  I had 2 fighters and 3 T-bombers there with 3 tanks and 3 inf.  You might want to consider building the IC in Romania on round 1 to accelerate more units to Turkey.  On round 5 after all is secure in Turkey I buy an IC with Italy and place it on Turkey. If UK did not take back on turn 3 or 4 then I build it with Germany.

[Razor]

Anybody that have an opinion about when is the best time to attack the true neutrals….

I figure that if you attack Spain and Sweden in turn 2, then you can close Gibraltar faster, possible by an Italian mech in turn 2, and the airforce you used to take Spain can be used to take Turkey too, if you land them in Northern Italy. But the benefit with a turn 3 attack, is the surprise. And if you have suffered great losses so far, you can call of the attack and play safe.

[cyanight]

From my experience you are exactly correct Razor.  Turn 2 and 3.

[ColonelCarter]

I don’t know how much of a “surprise” a G3 Neutral Crush would be for a couple of reasons:
1. The entire army that captured France is now sitting in Normandy/S. France. You could pull remaining mech/tank to N. Italy, but if they were actually heading toward Russia, wouldn’t they have gone to Yugoslavia?
2. An abnormally large German force is heading toward Greece. If Germany is the one to take Greece, in my experience it’s with some Bulgarian inf+air.

That’s why I think that the G2 hit of Spain/Sweden would be better for the reasons Razor mentioned: You get Spain & Sweden income a round earlier (and get one more round to defend Spain against America), you can take Gibraltar a round earlier (by an Italian tank if undefended) your air can be used to hit both Sp./Sw. and Turkey, and the ground in Sweden can be ready to attack Karelia R4.

I also think that this might be more viable in Europe only, as Japan doesn’t have to sacrifice itself to keep the US out of war as long as possible, and Russia doesn’t get its eastern income until it’s at war. (which is also being delayed until the latest possible)

[cyanight]

I fully agree with you… If you wait until turn 3 to hit Spain then there is some speculation to what Germany is doing.  If they are not at war with Russia then who are they going to attack? By using turn 2 and 3 to capture the Spain/Sweden and Turkey then you are not wasting time or like you said making Japan wait because you wont sign the “Tripartite Pact”, ;)  You can however have Japan attack on Turn 3 and bring USA into it.  They will most likely take Portugal for the 2 extra men.  If the map really had Bulgaria touching Turkey as Razor stated then I would suggest trying to get Turkey on turn 2 but this is not the case.  If for some strange reason Italy has its complete navy with all 3 transports then you might be able to hit Turkey with Italy on Turn 2 but that’s never going to happen and if it does its a fluke or your opponent is new, shame on you! hehe :)  If Italy bought a transport on round 1 and had 2 at the start of their first turn they might be able to pull it off but your only going to have 3 planes then.  Again just depends on the game.

[ItIsILeClerc]

I truly like the idea and hope for the best,
but I fear the Russian threat will to be too much for GE and IT with this strategy. I do not know for sure and will try it out someday! Why I think so:

US3/4: 8inf+3art+4mech+1arm -> Take Gibraltar.
UK3/4: 2inf+arm+art+6ftr -> Reinforce Gibraltar.

The above are reasonable numbers of allied troops in the atlantic at that time in the game. Reasonable as in nothing special. Could be better, could be worse. USA doesnt have to bleed the pacific dry or something like that.

I understand that GE wants to protect Gibraltar/Spain in this strategy. For this, GE needs 10mech+6arm+5ftr+5tac+2str as a counter strikeforce in SFrance. A smaller force will also be victorious but that will be a pyrrhic victory (GE loosing half its luftwaffe) and will thus end axis hope for victory.

Now, calculating the IPC-worth of axis units that is not active in/against Russia (compared to a standard Barbarossa) because of this strategy, I get to 257IPCs that Russia does NOT have to deal with:
-Building 8mech and keeping them in France (GE will loose 2 in Spain);
-Keeping the 4 original mech in France;
-Keeping 6arm in France;
-Keeping the Luftwaffe from defensive duty in/against Russia (based in either Paris or W. Germany);
-More subs + TRS built;
-2ICs built;
-Extra axis units lost in the attack on Turkey/Sweden…
-If UK scrambles SZ111 you are likely to unnecessarily loose 2 planes there (consider sending no planes into France).

I’ll not look into Turkey. The UK is on its flanks but it is so close to Russia that I take all axis units there as ‘offending Russia’ :wink:.

So, a total of at least 257IPCs-worth of units compared to a standard Barbarossa is not active against the Red Army. I know from (Sea Lion) experience that 215IPCs worth of units NOT active in Russia is a disaster for Germany. And now I look at 257!

Surely the red army must spread out more but so does the Wehrmacht. Really curious about how this will go when I try it!

[Young Grasshopper]

@ItIsILeClerc:

I truly like the idea and hope for the best,
but I fear the Russian threat will to be too much for GE and IT with this strategy. I do not know for sure and will try it out someday! Why I think so:

US3/4: 8inf+3art+4mech+1arm -> Take Gibraltar.
UK3/4: 2inf+arm+art+6ftr -> Reinforce Gibraltar.

The above are reasonable numbers of allied troops in the atlantic at that time in the game. Reasonable as in nothing special. Could be better, could be worse. USA doesnt have to bleed the pacific dry or something like that.

I understand that GE wants to protect Gibraltar/Spain in this strategy. For this, GE needs 10mech+6arm+5ftr+5tac+2str as a counter strikeforce in SFrance. A smaller force will also be victorious but that will be a pyrrhic victory (GE loosing half its luftwaffe) and will thus end axis hope for victory.

Now, calculating the IPC-worth of axis units that is not active in/against Russia (compared to a standard Barbarossa) because of this strategy, I get to 257IPCs that Russia does NOT have to deal with:
-Building 8mech and keeping them in France (GE will loose 2 in Spain);
-Keeping the 4 original mech in France;
-Keeping 6arm in France;
-Keeping the Luftwaffe from defensive duty in/against Russia (based in either Paris or W. Germany);
-More subs + TRS built;
-2ICs built;
-Extra axis units lost in the attack on Turkey/Sweden…
-If UK scrambles SZ111 you are likely to unnecessarily loose 2 planes there (consider sending no planes into France).

I’ll not look into Turkey. The UK is on its flanks but it is so close to Russia that I take all axis units there as ‘offending Russia’ :wink:.

So, a total of at least 257IPCs-worth of units compared to a standard Barbarossa is not active against the Red Army. I know from (Sea Lion) experience that 215IPCs worth of units NOT active in Russia is a disaster for Germany. And now I look at 257!

Surely the red army must spread out more but so does the Wehrmacht. Really curious about how this will go when I try it!

Don’t mean to piggy back someone else’s logic without taking the time to write my own opinions, but I 100% agree with all of the above comments.

[cyanight]

Thank you ItIsILeClerc.  I too also agree.  This strategy is risky.  Its a change form the normal and it can work if your allies don’t work together quickly.  If you lose too many planes (due to scrambling) on round 1 you probably should abort the “Angry Bird”.  Nothing is certain in this game if it was then it would not be so popular, hehe.  The first round really does nothing new and one can easily switch to Barbarossa, Sealion, etc.  You also need to evaluate what happens on Italy’s first turn.  But… If you have 90% of the Luftwaffe intact and Italy still has some navy left then you are free to wake up the bird. ANother thing to look for is to see if Russia backed their units up from the front line.  If they reinforce the front line then I also would abort the strategy.

I love the way you broke this down ItIsILeClerc.  very good job.  One of the experiences I have had with this strategy is that it allows Germany and Italy to gain a higher economy without taking any Russian lands.  Even if your defending with Germany while sending other units to the coast or through Turkey; Russia has to make that long walk to Berlin.  The closer they get the less units they will have.  They don’t buy much Mech like Germany does and their economy cannot support it for too long.  Also Germany can support buying more infantry because Russia is coming to them. They have to guard Leningrad, Stalingrad while pushing down the center. That’s not as easy for them to do.  Again these are just experiences I have had with the strategy.  Nothing is set in stone.

It also buys time for Japan to really get a good hold on Russia.  It really helps if Japan declares war on Russia and destroys the Siberians before they reach the capital on turn 6.   Now if Russia is attacking Germany they have to bring everything plus the kitchen sink while defending their capital and Stalingrad.  I have played the “Angry Bird” strategy only a few times but have been successful in each game.  Maybe that comes from the strategy or maybe its me or the dice, lol.  One thing is for sure its very difficult for Russia to attack Germany even though they have an ICP advantage.  I will post a pic of one of the games I played with this strategy.

I welcome your comments :)

[knp7765]

I am assuming that while you guys are discussing the strategy of attacking strict neutrals, that you all use the OOB neutral rules – if you attack one strict neutral they all turn against you.
When we tried the Germany Turn 3 “Neutral Crush”, we were also using the OOB neutral rules.
Since then we started using Neutral Blocks, basically dividing the strict neutral territories into geographical blocks:
South America : all South American countries
Africa : all neutrals in Africa. (Yes, I know some of them were European colonies but it was easier for gameplay to do it geographically)
Europe : Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and Sweeden.
Middle-East : Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.
Mongolia : all Mongolian territories.

We put Turkey in the Middle East block to make that block a little bigger and worth more. We did this to give all players a little more flexibility in case anyone wanted to take a neutral territory as part of their strategy without turning ALL of them to the other side. Also, there was the practical argument: If Sweeden was invaded, why would Chile or Mongolia care? However, Switzerland or Spain might just take notice of that.
Funny thing is, even with adopting this HR into our games, we haven’t touched the strict neutrals in many games.
Anyway, it seems to me like this would make a “neutral crush” even easier. Say Germany takes Sweeden, Spain and Turkey. That would just leave Portugal and Switzerland in Europe. The US or UK might grab Portugal for 1 IPC and a couple of guys, but Germany could smash that quick and Switzerland will only fall to the Allies if things go really bad for the Axis.
As for the Middle-East block, I guess UK would pick up an extra 4 guys in Afghanistan and 2 guys + 2 IPCs for Saudi Arabia, but that wouldn’t be a big problem for the Axis. The worst being those 4 guys from Afghanistan could end up helping defend either Calcutta or Moscow.
One thing you wouldn’t be doing is giving 8 extra infantry and 6 more IPCs to the US from South America. Although, it might be as much of a hindrance as a help since they have to send transports down to get those guys and it would take a while to get them up into Europe.
So, what do you guys think? Is using my Neutral Blocks HR a good idea with this Axis strategy? Or does it tip the favor too far to the Axis?

One other thing. I think this has been brought up before. Anybody consider making Argentina Pro-Axis?

[ItIsILeClerc]

@knp:
I think your HR will make angry bird easier for the axis.
To a gamebreaking level? Maybe yes, maybe no, I don’t know. The way I see it, grabbing Turkey is the strongest point of this strategy because it gives quick access to all the axis oil-oriented NO’s and to the shortcut into Calcutta. Or Africa. The HR takes away I think the main downsides for the axis to attack Turkey: extra troops + income for the allies coming from Spain and African neutrals, plus the cancellation of the Swedish NO for Germany (and extra income for the allies later on when Sweden is taken).

@Cyanight:
You are welcome. I love this way of ‘exploring strategies’ with like-minded people  :-). Give and recieve feedback. Yummy!
While we’re at it, maybe it would be a boost to your strategy if you accept that Spain/Gibraltar  cannot be held.
You could attack spain just to deny the US those extra troops and then get the hell out of there, returning the ARM/MECH/AIR to the ‘eastfront’, reverting to the standard western defense.

Really like the idea of taking the time to take on Russia/China with Japan. Done that myself couple of times. Only downside of delaying the US till round 4, is India + ANZAC DOW Japan round3 gaining massive economies. Those two will become very angry birds themselves. Let alone the US who can perfectly see on beforehand what is going on (moving after Japan) and focus a ‘bit’ more on Germany. Caveat emptor! Every advantage has a disadvantage in this game  :wink:.

[cyanight]

Knp:  I agree with ItIsILeClerc with those added rules I would just attack Turkey.  It is nice to be able to control Gibraltar without ships  but I agree that oil you get from moving through Turkey and the fact that it puts another border on Russia to guard is the major strength of this strategy.  I would love to play with those rules and I agree with you.  Why would any countries in South America care if neutrality was violated in Europe or the middle east.  Its too bad that Bulgaria doesn’t touch Turkey like Razor said it did.

Thanks again ItIsILeClerc. I enjoy discussing these strategies.  The games that I played Angry Bird I did exactly what you mentioned. As soon as I took Spain back from the Allies I would try to get out of there and leave it as a buffer zone.  Im sure I could also change what I purchase each turn also.  Sometime you have to wait to see how a round went before you can decide on what to buy.  I honestly believe that on round 1 Germany could buy about anything though.  For the Angry Bird though you need to get some tanks down to Romania quickly and it helps to transport 1 or two to take Sweden.