Italy in France??

[Whitshadw]

@Young:

@Uncrustable:

Opinions aside, lets look at this.
Low Luck dice.
Germany takes Normandy, South France, Yugoslavia and strafes France. (Leaving 1 French tank and 1 French fighter, retreating to W Germany)
UK does not scramble any fighters to defend Royal Navy.
UK lands 5 fighters, 1 tactical bomber and one bomber on France.

Leaving the following battle:
Italy attacks with: 2 inf, 2 art, 1 arm, 2 fig and 1 bomb
French/UK defends with: 1 arm, 6 fig, 1 tac and 1 bomb

This is a 100% battle in favor of the French.
Italy attacks, French win with 3 British fighters remaining

Even if you get lucky and only leave the French fighter on G1, its still 95% in favor of the French when Italy attacks.

Unless i’m really missing something this move would almost always be a total disaster for the axis.

Thanks… I didn’t have the time or energy to explain it in detail the way you did, so I copped out and blamed it on different opinions.

Lol you didn’t need to spell anything out it’s on the board clear as day my question was essentially what’s the Pros vs Cons on doing such a move sure it helps the allies for one turn but them screwed them for 3 turns

[Young Grasshopper]

No problem… another interesting question is, what would France do with the $19 if they had a chance to spend it?

Knowing that France would surly fall in the next round no matter how many infantry I buy, I would probably use one of the minors to drop 3 French subs.

[Whitshadw]

And which
Minor would you take if Germany has Normandy and Southern France?
With England sacrafcing all
It’s air power for Paris leaves there navy weak and Frances navy is a push over even with 2 transports left ( counting the one off Malta dies with its destroyer) you can shift over 1 tank and 3 men with 2 transports to southern France. Again I don’t see how in the Lon run it would fail the axis? And more so screw the allies if they bate them selfs to send all there Air Force to a dieing cause?

[Young Grasshopper]

@Whitshadw:

And which
Minor would you take if Germany has Normandy and Southern France?
With England sacrafcing all
It’s air power for Paris leaves there navy weak and Frances navy is a push over even with 2 transports left ( counting the one off Malta dies with its destroyer) you can shift over 1 tank and 3 men with 2 transports to southern France. Again I don’t see how in the Lon run it would fail the axis? And more so screw the allies if they bate them selfs to send all there Air Force to a dieing cause?

Personally I wouldn’t stack France to save it. I don’t really care who takes France because if I’m the allies, I already enter the game expecting it to be toast. If Italy has the $19 instead of Germany… so be it.

On the other sign of the coin, there are many other territories Germany could leave for Italy to boost their income, which doesn’t necessarily mean that I disagree with your idea of Italy taking France.

[Derek]

UK doesnt scramble in 90% of the games more than 1 fighter (scottland)
Why? Sealion threat
UK loses its fleet in the Atlantic in almost every game anyhow
Why? because Germany would be foolish not to sink it round 1

The Allies dominate in economy and number of units, for the Axis it is a race against time.
This is why J1 DOW is often a good strategy.
Usually it is not a good idea to not DOW early for the axis, unless they are using a neutral crush strategy.

That being said…
The Axis are basically stalling themelves for an entire turn, just to kill 6-7 British planes. Doesn’t seem logical to me…

It may be some wonder strategy, who knows. Try it out on tripleA sometime vs a decent player and see how it goes.

[Derek]

@Young:

Personally I wouldn’t stack France to save it. I don’t really care who takes France because if I’m the allies, I already enter the game expecting it to be toast. If Italy has the $19 instead of Germany… so be it.

On the other sign of the coin, there are many other territories Germany could leave for Italy to boost their income, which doesn’t necessarily mean that I disagree with your idea of Italy taking France.

S France, Yugo, Bulgaria, Greece…8 IPCs per turn

Germany threatening sealion is the best way to help Italy, as it forces UK to defend round 1.
Germany can then use its round 1 build (carrier 2 transports) + its huge number of aircraft to take Gibraltar and secure the med on round 2.
Thats 10 IPCs just in bonuses for Italy per turn

Combined with the above territories that is a income boost of 18 IPCs per turn for Italy.

[variance]

If you roll your France battle first and do your retreat before you do the sea battles, UK will know there is no sealion threat and they should scramble, especially if you bought all ground units.  If they don’t scramble and opt to stack france instead, you’ll kill them G2 along with the French.  This costs you time against Russia but if for some reason you really really want UK to have no planes this could be a way to ensure it.  I don’t think you’d fare very well on the Eastern front from that point on though.

[ColonelCarter]

@variance:

If you roll your France battle first and do your retreat before you do the sea battles, UK will know there is no sealion threat and they should scramble, especially if you bought all ground units.  If they don’t scramble and opt to stack france instead, you’ll kill them G2 along with the French.  This costs you time against Russia but if for some reason you really really want UK to have no planes this could be a way to ensure it.  I don’t think you’d fare very well on the Eastern front from that point on though.

I’m fairly sure all scrambles are declared before any combat is rolled, but I could be wrong.
That said, I agree with Uncrustable; Germany can help Italy get on its legs in other ways while buffing itself up too.

[knp7765]

@ColonelCarter:

I’m fairly sure all scrambles are declared before any combat is rolled, but I could be wrong.
That said, I agree with Uncrustable; Germany can help Italy get on its legs in other ways while buffing itself up too.

You are right. The attacker has to make all combat moves first and declare that he is done. Then, before any dice are rolled, the defender decides whether or not to scramble.

This sounds like an interesting idea and if done properly, it would set UK back a lot. Most of the Royal Navy in the Med and Atlantic would be gone and nearly all the RAF too. UK would be left very weak against Italy in Africa and Germany for a possible Sealion.
However, I also agree this could leave Germany very unprepared against Russia. Germany may get London just to end up falling before the Bolshevik Hoards.

[1Bean432]

Might just be me, but unless Germany takes France after Italy fails (due to British planes)cant the allies then do some smart play and prevent Italy from advancing into Africa at all?

check:

Germany - does stuff, weakens France, takes Normandy and south France
Britain - Sees Germany wants Italy to take France, Sends 5 Fighters and 1 Tac. Moves Fighter from Alexandria to Algeria
Italy - Attacks France, Fails (barely)
France - builds Infantry, Move 3 African Infantry to stack with British Fighter
Germany - Germany must now take France, Or let Italy suffer. Lets assume they let Italy suffer.
U.S.A - sees a massive weakness in south Europe. Builds Naval base in sea zone 89, build some transports and blokes with guns
Britain - Sends 3 Fighters to France
Italy - Italy attacks France and takes it, losing almost everything. Collects big income

Well yay, the Axis FINALLY get Italy to take France. However, Africa has not received any reinforcements of any sort as of yet.

And smart play on the allies part should mean America is in sea zone 91 with a nice big fleet, ready to take Italy/Africa.
And there’s nothing Italy can do about it.

TL:DR Unless Germany takes France G2 then Africa WILL be allied, and Italy WILL be screwed.

[variance]

Don’t forget the French fighter.  This is actually listed in Cow’s Germany handbook under the name “Gambit play”.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30167.0

[WILD BILL]

We’ve had a few games that Germany ended up weakening Paris for Italy to take. It wasn’t necessarily planed that way (the first time) but after the second round of attack the French were down to just a couple units so the Germans with-drew back to Northern Italy (mech/tanks went that way). This gets surviving German units heading to Russia faster BTW. In our games most of Italy’s navy gets wiped on UK1 so the 19 IPCs comes in handy for the re-build (they will need less German help). The German air force will generally help to clear the Med or reinforce Italian advances for the first couple turns (a couple U-boats dropped off S France G2 if UK has no destroyers also comes in handy).

I have to say that in none of those games did the UK stack Paris w/ftrs to stop Italy from getting it. If so as the Axis I wouldn’t mind double hitting it w/Italy & Germany to crush the RAF. Other pros for the axis would be that the Italian navy wouldn’t get hit, and those dead UK ftrs aren’t going to end up in Moscow.

[Whitshadw]

So the basic thought of this idea is simple if you look to more then one turn a head.

For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.

So why leave France to Italy well I think of it as a Baiting the allies into helping France for a futile cause. Say Britian flys in all the planes to France you Possably bought France one turn but lost all of you Airforce leaving England with no navy and no Airforce and Italy can mop up what’s left in the Meditranian and the Atlantic is empty

While it’s allways benifital to help Germany by giving France you can allways stall and just do a G3 into Russia no big deal and this gives Italy a soild 3 rounds to build up in the meditranian. And also push into the middle east getting into Russia quicker and threating Calcuta also.

While yes America can eventually build up normaly by round 5-6 they can start to push back at Germany but by then it maybe to late England is cut out and cripples to much

Also the whole Sealion can ofcorse work but any smart player can see if your telegraphing by your purchases so that’s moot and personally there’s better buys tha can be better suited then that if your going for Russia and just interceding to cripple England also if England dose send it’s Airforce to France all the more for me to Stratigic Bomb them to death cause they cant scramble any way you look at it it’s win / win! :)

[1Bean432]

@Whitshadw:

So the basic thought of this idea is simple if you look to more then one turn a head.

For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.

So why leave France to Italy well I think of it as a Baiting the allies into helping France for a futile cause. Say Britian flys in all the planes to France you Possably bought France one turn but lost all of you Airforce leaving England with no navy and no Airforce and Italy can mop up what’s left in the Meditranian and the Atlantic is empty

While it’s allways benifital to help Germany by giving France you can allways stall and just do a G3 into Russia no big deal and this gives Italy a soild 3 rounds to build up in the meditranian. And also push into the middle east getting into Russia quicker and threating Calcuta also.

While yes America can eventually build up normaly by round 5-6 they can start to push back at Germany but by then it maybe to late England is cut out and cripples to much

Also the whole Sealion can ofcorse work but any smart player can see if your telegraphing by your purchases so that’s moot and personally there’s better buys tha can be better suited then that if your going for Russia and just interceding to cripple England also if England dose send it’s Airforce to France all the more for me to Stratigic Bomb them to death cause they cant scramble any way you look at it it’s win / win! :)

England is always crippled. Besides, all they can ever do is build fighters because any navy will immediately get obliterated by Germany.

Any extra $$$ Italy gets is useless, because they would just be replacing everything they sacrificed.
When Britain sends those planes to France, Italy is immediately prevented from taking France I1. Most of the time, they will lose.

And if America threatens an Italian crush from Gibraltar, then Italy will never be able to land anything in Africa (unless they suicide for it).

Better question:
Whats the point of Italy taking France, all the extra $$$ goes towards replenishing loses…

[Whitshadw]

You’ve clearly missed Everything that was writin how and when will America crush Italy? When they have to split there money with West and East what round 6? By then it’s to late and Russia will fall what all that extra income …

Africa falls fast with that Egypt and then the Middle East.not only that at most Germany and Italy has 4 rounds to Prepare for any American counter and 9/10 al America dose is build up cause it can’t match the German Airforce and Italian wall built up…

And I would want England to place it’s Entriee Airforce in one spot to obliterate Not only that it dosnt have the money to bounce back and just rebuilt an Airforce while sitting idle so it has other things to buy and do not only that it leaves England undefended further doing Stratigic bombing raids and for atlest 2 rounds Convoy raids

So best of luck thinking America can just rush in think its gonna do much when by roud 5 anything done is basicaly Moot

[1Bean432]

@Whitshadw:

You’ve clearly missed Everything that was writin how and when will America crush Italy? When they have to split there money with West and East what round 6? By then it’s to late and Russia will fall what all that extra income …

Africa falls fast with that Egypt and then the Middle East.not only that at most Germany and Italy has 4 rounds to Prepare for any American counter and 9/10 al America dose is build up cause it can’t match the German Airforce and Italian wall built up…

And I would want England to place it’s Entriee Airforce in one spot to obliterate Not only that it dosnt have the money to bounce back and just rebuilt an Airforce while sitting idle so it has other things to buy and do not only that it leaves England undefended further doing Stratigic bombing raids and for atlest 2 rounds Convoy raids

So best of luck thinking America can just rush in think its gonna do much when by roud 5 anything done is basicaly Moot

I never said anything about America crushing/taking Italy.

All America needs is 3-5 transports full of blokes with guns West of Gibraltar, and from their they can liberate U.K from any sea lion, and prevent Italy from doing anything in Africa.

Because once America threatens Italy with transports and men in sea zone 89 after turn 2, Italy ‘should’ realize that anything but lots of land units is gonna get them killed.

So i don’t see Italy getting enough units into Africa any time soon.

Therefore i ALSO don’t see Africa ‘going down fast’.

TL:DR  U.S.A can keep Italy Landlocked for 14 IPCs a turn.

[Derek]

There is no way Italy gets into Africa with this strategy.
First it delays the axis for an entire turn, and they do not even stand to benefit from it.
With zero sealion threat Britain can build an IC in Egypt turn one.
With this you cannot afford USA entering early, forcing japan to wait to Dow, meaning both Britain and ANZAC get rich in the pacific.
Britain PAC could then fly its planes from India to Egypt, get an airbase there and Africa is secure for the entire game.

What you really fail to realize is this would delay the Germans not one turn, but 2 entire turns as they are going to need a good amount to take France turn 2.

For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.

This is not possible barring really lucky dice.
The most standard play is taking out English Channel, Scotland an transport off Canada. Leaving the gib cruiser and 109 transport.

During Britain’s  turn Italy cannot scramble against Taranto, as losing fighters would mean Britain needs less to defend France meaning less air lost for Britain.

[variance]

Taranto would be an interesting move in this situation.  Send carrier, cruiser, tac from z98, Malta fighter, and bomber.  Sink z96 with destroyer and z91 cruiser.  That’s a weak Tarant raid but like uncrustable said, they really can’t scramble because they need to save those planes for France.  So you sacrifice the carrier to take out the big ships and land the 3 planes in France.

[Whitshadw]

@Uncrustable:

There is no way Italy gets into Africa with this strategy.
First it delays the axis for an entire turn, and they do not even stand to benefit from it.
With zero sealion threat Britain can build an IC in Egypt turn one.
With this you cannot afford USA entering early, forcing japan to wait to Dow, meaning both Britain and ANZAC get rich in the pacific.
Britain PAC could then fly its planes from India to Egypt, get an airbase there and Africa is secure for the entire game.

What you really fail to realize is this would delay the Germans not one turn, but 2 entire turns as they are going to need a good amount to take France turn 2.

No I’m allways able to manage to take out all the ships minus the one cruser in the Atlantic. I’m not sure how your set up is in a open move but I easily am able to clear out the Atlantic of English ships minus that one cruser
Also in what way will it prevent me from going into Africa as Italy I start with 3 transports and 3 separate navy’s there and England goes before Italy it’s not hard to see what your going to do I’ve played this out an take Egypt in Italy turn 2 with the left over battleship crusers and sub detroryer and no planes left to defend them it’s easy to sweep that aside and quickly dump off 1 tank and 3 men to North Africa

The Axis don’t loose any turns if it
Meens crippling the English to the point where they can’t do anything and everything else gos as planed

The pacific is still a side show and nothing changes so what if they get the money islands there’s no real threat with ships minus the American threat which is still at minimum 1-2 turns away and if your dumb enough to fly your planes from Calcuta that leaves me open to just swoop in and take it over

For one it’s safe to say that anyone playing as Germany will Clear out the Atlantic as best you can. I personally like to clear out the two destroyers and transports as manditory, and the English Channel and off Scotland. Then do the standees opening kvements and attacks I like to take Southern France cause it gives me the ability to have a port as Germany in the meditranian.

This is not possible barring really lucky dice.
The most standard play is taking out English Channel, Scotland an transport off Canada. Leaving the gib cruiser and 109 transport.

During Britain’s  turn Italy cannot scramble against Taranto, as losing fighters would mean Britain needs less to defend France meaning less air lost for Britain.

[Derek]

Not to mention most bids feature a Brit sub in 98