Rewrite history…

[haxorboy]

I think that it is funny that ppl like you can dismiss the slavery that took place before there was an America.

I have no idea where you got I was dismissing slavery didn’t exist before America but I am sure glad you put words in my mouth then spoke down on me with those words freshly placed in my mouth.

Next time you decide to harpoon someone in a thread at least know who said what, might help your cause.

[Zooey72]

@haxorboy:

Can someone lock this so she doesn’t further expand on why killing the Jews wasn’t in itself wrong or something even more absurd?

Well, you seemed to take the HS history class perspective on slavery by comparing it to the holocaust. It does not matter to me that you know the fact that slavery existed before america. It bothers me that you hear the word “slavery” and make assumptions about it without putting it in historical context. Slavery is wrong, no doubt about it. But you need to see it for what it is, and not what is spoon fed. Comparing slavery to the holocaust is ridiculous. Was slavery bad? Yes, but you need to look at the economics of it. In many cases it was better to be a slave than one of the dirt farmers in the south.

Recieving $ at the end of a work week does not free someone from slavery if thier standard of living is lower than that of a slave. People go on and on about slavery, but the monopolies that enslaved ALL Americans goes by as a foot note in history.

I made an assumption about you, and I apolagize for that. But you made a ridiculous remark to someone who was bringing up a differing view. I don’t agree with all Jen has to say (I am by no means a hard core christian - another assumption of mine that she is), but I do think that her argument is not flame bait or trolling. Just a different point of view.

[El Jefe]

A little more back on topic…

If the French had won the colonial wars…
Fewer Africans would be being killed now because the French don’t know how to win a real war,

the Etats Unis would not have french fries, but Anglaise friese(sp.?),

a french kiss would be something else,

there would be no Statue of Liberty,

Paris, Ky and Versailles, IN would be pronounced properly,

clothing would cost more for men and be unaffordable for women,

the French language would be the language of business as well as the language of dipolmacy(picture 300,000,000 Chinese speaking French.)

[Guest]

@El:

… because the French don’t know how to win a real war,

I would like to have a statement of the moderators in how far jokes on nationalities are not considered personal attacks.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

@El:

… because the French don’t know how to win a real war,

I would like to have a statement of the moderators in how far jokes on nationalities are not considered personal attacks.

i admit that i get kind of irritated with statements like this and other anti-insert-nation-here jokes. Also i consider that calling members of a political party “Demon-rats” unacceptable.

I consider that these kind of absurd comments tend to reflect more on the one making them, than on the group that they are making them about, and only considerably stupid people would suggest that there is an amount of truth to them.

[Janus1]

i admit that i get kind of irritated with statements like this and other anti-insert-nation-here jokes. Also i consider that calling members of a political party “Demon-rats” unacceptable.

I consider that these kind of absurd comments tend to reflect more on the one making them, than on the group that they are making them about, and only considerably stupid people would suggest that there is an amount of truth to them.

how bout your referral to Bush as “dumbass”, “his idiotship”, etc.?
im not offended or anything by it, but isnt it doing the same thing that you are complaining about? double standard much…

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

i admit that i get kind of irritated with statements like this and other anti-insert-nation-here jokes. Also i consider that calling members of a political party “Demon-rats” unacceptable.

I consider that these kind of absurd comments tend to reflect more on the one making them, than on the group that they are making them about, and only considerably stupid people would suggest that there is an amount of truth to them.

how bout your referral to Bush as “dumbass”, “his idiotship”, etc.?
im not offended or anything by it, but isnt it doing the same thing that you are complaining about? double standard much…

fair enough.
And it’s not really my problem in a sense, as i’m not French, nor am i a democrat (nor am i a true Liberal).
I just figured that some democrats may be offended. If they are not, then fine.
As for Bush - i guess i just call them as i see them. I liked his daddy fine, but the apple hit a few branches when falling from the ol’ tree.

[Janus1]

fair enough.
And it’s not really my problem in a sense, as i’m not French, nor am i a democrat (nor am i a true Liberal).
I just figured that some democrats may be offended. If they are not, then fine.
As for Bush - i guess i just call them as i see them. I liked his daddy fine, but the apple hit a few branches when falling from the ol’ tree.

but thats exactly my point, none of it bothers me, say what ever the f you want, just dont condemn people like jen doing it, but not yourself. i hate double standards.

[Jennifer]

@El:

… and Versailles, IN would be pronounced properly…

According to the Kentuckians of the area, they do pronounce it properly. It’s a he said, she said situation, is it not?

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

fair enough.
And it’s not really my problem in a sense, as i’m not French, nor am i a democrat (nor am i a true Liberal).
I just figured that some democrats may be offended. If they are not, then fine.
As for Bush - i guess i just call them as i see them. I liked his daddy fine, but the apple hit a few branches when falling from the ol’ tree.

but thats exactly my point, none of it bothers me, say what ever the f you want, just dont condemn people like jen doing it, but not yourself. i hate double standards.

So you would equate ethnic/political slurs with criticism of a political figure then?
In that regard referring to african-Americans as F-in’ N-word-s would be the same as calling Jean Cretien (former PM of Canada) a dishonest mercenary?

Obviously i disagree.

[Jennifer]

@cystic:

@Janus1:

fair enough.
And it’s not really my problem in a sense, as i’m not French, nor am i a democrat (nor am i a true Liberal).
I just figured that some democrats may be offended. If they are not, then fine.
As for Bush - i guess i just call them as i see them. I liked his daddy fine, but the apple hit a few branches when falling from the ol’ tree.

but thats exactly my point, none of it bothers me, say what ever the f you want, just dont condemn people like jen doing it, but not yourself. i hate double standards.

So you would equate ethnic/political slurs with criticism of a political figure then?
In that regard referring to african-Americans as F-in’ N-word-s would be the same as calling Jean Cretien (former PM of Canada) a dishonest mercenary?

Obviously i disagree.

There’s a difference between a racial slur and slamming the inhabitants of a foreign nation. Foreigners can move to another nation and change citizenship. Members of a specific race cannot change race, even if they move and change their name.

This is why making fun of black, yellow, white and red people (hoping I didnt miss one, if I did, add it to the list) is morally wrong, while pointing out the foibles of a foreigner is not. As the scottsman in the Simpsons said: “…you cheese eating surrender monkeys!” This was not pulled from public television during prime time because it was not morally wrong. It was politically charged, it was hardly politically correct, but it was not morally wrong, and most assuredly it was not ethically wrong!

Slander, on the other hand, such as saying that Joe Blow raped someone when he obviouslly did not, is ethically and morally wrong. So there is a fine line you have to tread. But saying something like “The French have not won a war since WWI” is perfectly legit since they technically lost WWII, lost Vietnam, and lost elsewhere when they were supposed to be a major player. It’s like saying the German’s elected a racist sshle to lead their country! It’s true, as they did elect Adolf Hitler in the 30’s and 40’s. However, it’s not legit to call someone a Nggr or Ch*nk since these are genetical differentiations that cannot be changed or altered nor, really, have any factual evidence in history to draw upon.

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

There’s a difference between a racial slur and slamming the inhabitants of a foreign nation. Foreigners can move to another nation and change citizenship. Members of a specific race cannot change race, even if they move and change their name.

I disagree with this reasoning to try to justify what i see as nationalism.

…But saying something like “The French have not won a war since WWI” is perfectly legit since they technically lost WWII, lost Vietnam, and lost elsewhere when they were supposed to be a major player. It’s like saying the German’s elected a racist sshle to lead their country! It’s true, as they did elect Adolf Hitler in the 30’s and 40’s.

You really need to check your history.
Hitler never was elected into office.

[Jennifer]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

There’s a difference between a racial slur and slamming the inhabitants of a foreign nation. Foreigners can move to another nation and change citizenship. Members of a specific race cannot change race, even if they move and change their name.

I disagree with this reasoning to try to justify what i see as nationalism.

National pride is not morally wrong. Racial bias is wrong because it’s based on something out of control of the person being biased against.

For instance, if I were to decide to fire all my Canadian employees (I don’t have any, but this is just a hypothetical) and not hire anymore, there is no country - that I know of - that would have a law forbidding this.

However, if I were to fire all black employees (which I do have, but it’s still a hypothetical) then I would be in violation of many laws in this country and many other countries I do business in.

Obviously I wouldn’t fire on either account, but it works in the context of what is internationally accepted as morally right and wrong as extrapolated by the laws.

[Janus1]

So you would equate ethnic/political slurs with criticism of a political figure then?
In that regard referring to african-Americans as F-in’ N-word-s would be the same as calling Jean Cretien (former PM of Canada) a dishonest mercenary?

there is a big difference between “dishonest mercenary”, and “his idiotship” or “that dumbass”. theres also a big difference between “dishonest mercenary” and “nigger”

and actually, ive got a problem with the term “african american”. what kind of bs is that? do we call all white people in this country “european americans”? no. not all black people are from africa (meaning, most werent born there, nor were there parents, etc., from a very long time ago). isnt it insulting to label them this way? isnt that basically saying “well, hes black, so clearly hes from africa”. when black people are asked where they from, and say “georgia” for example, then the questioner gets disappointed, because he meant where in africa, the black person gets upset (in my experience) so how is it any different to say “african american”? what about black people in europe? are they “african europeans?”

same shit, different day

[Jennifer]

@Janus1:

So you would equate ethnic/political slurs with criticism of a political figure then?
In that regard referring to african-Americans as F-in’ N-word-s would be the same as calling Jean Cretien (former PM of Canada) a dishonest mercenary?

there is a big difference between “dishonest mercenary”, and “his idiotship” or “that dumbass”. theres also a big difference between “dishonest mercenary” and “nigger”

and actually, ive got a problem with the term “african american”. what kind of bs is that? do we call all white people in this country “european americans”? no. not all black people are from africa (meaning, most werent born there, nor were there parents, etc., from a very long time ago). isnt it insulting to label them this way? isnt that basically saying “well, hes black, so clearly hes from africa”. when black people are asked where they from, and say “georgia” for example, then the questioner gets disappointed, because he meant where in africa, the black person gets upset (in my experience) so how is it any different to say “african american”? what about black people in europe? are they “african europeans?”

same sh*t, different day

Reminds me of that nice white boy who was accept to college because he listed himself as an African American. When they tried to expell him he sued, for literally, he was born in Africa and held citizenship in both Africa and North America thus he was truely an African American!

And yes, I agree with you, Janus. We should not be differentiating ourselves based on our genetic code. Women are not Female-Americans. Whites are not French-Americans. Christians are not Christian-Americans. We are just Americans.

Personally, I feel it’s a way for the government to keep the populace divided and warring amoungst each other to maintain power and create an establishment of jealousy and fear amoung the people. But then, I was born into a family and raised by a family that truely believes that the only enemy of freedom is government and that the only good government is a small government run by people directly involved in the situation.

Ironically, neighborhood associations is the closest thing I can find to a good government. They are run by residents. They are small. They are relatively powerless to do anything but mediate disputes between neighbors. And, they are not normally over bloated in social beauracracy. (And last time I checked, they didn’t ask you if you were African American or Caucasion (like all whites hail from teh caucasus or something) or Asian or whatnot.)

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

So you would equate ethnic/political slurs with criticism of a political figure then?
In that regard referring to african-Americans as F-in’ N-word-s would be the same as calling Jean Cretien (former PM of Canada) a dishonest mercenary?

there is a big difference between “dishonest mercenary”, and “his idiotship” or “that dumbass”. theres also a big difference between “dishonest mercenary” and “nigger”

in my mind Cretian was a terrible person - manipulative and hubristic. This is probably worse than being merely stupid. Having said that, i think that Bush is quite manipulative in his own stupid way.
But back to the point - putting down a president is different than putting down an entire group of people, referring to them as demons, useless, or suggesting that it would be just as well for them to be wiped off the face of the earth.

and actually, ive got a problem with the term “african american”. what kind of bs is that? do we call all white people in this country “european americans”? no. not all black people are from africa (meaning, most werent born there, nor were there parents, etc., from a very long time ago). isnt it insulting to label them this way? isnt that basically saying “well, hes black, so clearly hes from africa”. when black people are asked where they from, and say “georgia” for example, then the questioner gets disappointed, because he meant where in africa, the black person gets upset (in my experience) so how is it any different to say “african american”? what about black people in europe? are they “african europeans?”

well,
granted i do not refer to whities as european americans as they (still) appear to be the majority.
Anyway, African-American or African-Canadian seems currently to be the least offensive. I suppose I am wrong given that you are evidently offended by this. ahhh well. I guess someone will always be offended - even with the most deliberate attempts to be polite.
The thing is, it is simply an identifier. I do not honestly consider that all people who are evidently of African descent are recently from Africa. I consider that most of them are second, third, etc. generation Canadian, or from the Caribbean or America. At the same time, it is not that much more insulting than referring to a Japanese-Canadian as being Japanese-Canadian, is it?

[Janus1]

well, im not offended by it, i just think its ludicrous. as to qualifiers: who needs them? first, dont they merely perpetuate the cycle of “us” vs. “them”, they point out the differences, which is what were supposed to avoid doing. and they are plain wrong. plus, there is a big difference between japanese american and african american. one is a country, the other a continent. and since you and falk are so big on this accuracy in labels (USan) i would think this would carry over

[Guest]

@Jennifer:

National pride is not morally wrong. Racial bias is wrong because it’s based on something out of control of the person being biased against.

You also have no control over the place you are born in. So, by your definition, it is ok to slam on citizens of a country …. apart from all that are under 18 and thus were not yet able to chose their own nationality
(It is out of control for them, you should know that) ?

For instance, if I were to decide to fire all my Canadian employees (I don’t have any, but this is just a hypothetical) and not hire anymore, there is no country - that I know of - that would have a law forbidding this.

I am 98% sure that that would be illegal in Germany.

What about making sexist jokes? There are ways to “change” your own sex, so would it be “morally” ok for you to make sexist jokes?
Jokes on blondes …. hair colour is easy to change, so they are ok?

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

well, im not offended by it, i just think its ludicrous. as to qualifiers: who needs them?

“where’s the bbq?”
“oh - it’s a Frank’s house”
“who’s Frank?”
"new guy in Accounting - you know, the tall guy with the really intense suntan . . . "

first, dont they merely perpetuate the cycle of “us” vs. “them”, they point out the differences, which is what were supposed to avoid doing.

naaaa
my black friends know they’re black.
And besides - there ARE differences. Not just color, but often cultural background, ways of relating and being related to the rest of their community. Often this does not hold true in Canada, but often it is true as well.

and they are plain wrong. plus, there is a big difference between japanese american and african american. one is a country, the other a continent. and since you and falk are so big on this accuracy in labels (USan) i would think this would carry over

well,
fair enough. At the same time, i am not always correct when i describe a “black guy” as Rwandan/Zimbabwe-an/South African/Angolan.
I just noticed when typing this that people from all of these nations speak different languages. I’m sure that the Rwandan would prefer not to be referred to as Belgian/French, however, as the Angolan - Portuguese, the South African “Africaans” etc.

Funny thing - my next door neighbour is from South Africa. The other night he invited me to guess his racial background. THAT was a toughie.

[Jennifer]

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

National pride is not morally wrong. Racial bias is wrong because it’s based on something out of control of the person being biased against.

You also have no control over the place you are born in. So, by your definition, it is ok to slam on citizens of a country …. apart from all that are under 18 and thus were not yet able to chose their own nationality
(It is out of control for them, you should know that) ?

Not really, I slam the members of that country. If you choose to change membership or fix your country then you are no longer slammed. You see, they have the ability to change. A person with or without color does not have the ability to change himself on the genetic level.

@F_alk:

@Jennifer:

For instance, if I were to decide to fire all my Canadian employees (I don’t have any, but this is just a hypothetical) and not hire anymore, there is no country - that I know of - that would have a law forbidding this.

I am 98% sure that that would be illegal in Germany.

What about making sexist jokes? There are ways to “change” your own sex, so would it be “morally” ok for you to make sexist jokes?
Jokes on blondes …. hair colour is easy to change, so they are ok?

I’m not 100% on my German law. It’s probably illegal to do it if you are a German company, but I don’t know if their law would apply to foreign companies such as British, Canadian or Mexican companies that do business in Germany. It might.

And no, it wouldnt be wrong to slam women or men. Actually, I think it’s a national past time in this country. Yes, because you can conceal or alter your sex. But also because if one biggotted man refuses to hire a woman, that woman can take her impeccable skills and open a new firm or join another firm to drive that man out of business. How do you think new companies start?